Digital BW, The Print

This was just anounced this week:

http://www.all-about-
monitors.com/nec_lcd_technologies_announces_high_end_21_3_inch_gb.jsp
x


Brad

Sounds like a good press release. Any guess on the price?
Mark

On Mar 18, 2005, at 11:39 AM, bdhainsw wrote:

>
>  This was just anounced this week:
>
> http://www.all-about-
>  monitors.com/nec_lcd_technologies_announces_high_end_21_3_inch_gb.jsp
>  x
>
>
>  Brad


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's only the 2nd LCD I have heard of that encompasses the Adobe 
RGB color space.  The other is the top of the line Eizo,which is 14 
bit and costs somewhere around $5000-$6000.  Ouch!  I haven't seen 
the price of the NEC monitor yet.  It looks like ARGB monitors will 
be coming fast and furious now.  Just gotta wait for the price to 
drop.

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
<mark@c...> wrote:
> Sounds like a good press release. Any guess on the price?
> Mark
> 
> On Mar 18, 2005, at 11:39 AM, bdhainsw wrote:
> 
> >
> >  This was just anounced this week:
> >
> > http://www.all-about-
> >  
monitors.com/nec_lcd_technologies_announces_high_end_21_3_inch_gb.jsp

> >  x
> >
> >
> >  Brad
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Question: why do you need Adobe RGB if most output spaces are much much
smaller?  Even if you were to output to display only, only people with Adobe
RGB capable displays could render the image properly.  Marketing hype?

> From: Louis Dina <lbdina@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:03:43 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New LCD monitor for color/photo professionals
> 
> 
> 
> That's only the 2nd LCD I have heard of that encompasses the Adobe
> RGB color space.  The other is the top of the line Eizo,which is 14
> bit and costs somewhere around $5000-$6000.  Ouch!  I haven't seen
> the price of the NEC monitor yet.  It looks like ARGB monitors will
> be coming fast and furious now.  Just gotta wait for the price to
> drop.
> 
> Lou
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
> <mark@c...> wrote:
>> Sounds like a good press release. Any guess on the price?
>> Mark
>> 
>> On Mar 18, 2005, at 11:39 AM, bdhainsw wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>>  This was just anounced this week:
>>> 
>>> http://www.all-about-
>>>  
> monitors.com/nec_lcd_technologies_announces_high_end_21_3_inch_gb.jsp
>>>  x
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Brad
>> 
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Steve,

Color spaces overlap.  While a good CRT generally has a larger 
overall gamut than a printing press, there are many colors that a 
press can display that a typical good CRT cannot.  Adobe RGB 
encompasses a larger percentage of these colors.  Inkjets have a 
larger gamut than a printing press.  Since most CRTs have a color 
space very close to sRGB, you miss seeing a lot of colors.  

If you have ColorThink, or another good profile display program, you 
can compare all these color gamuts and see why we would want a 
monitor that can display Adobe RGB, at least for color work.  

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Question: why do you need Adobe RGB if most output spaces are much 
much
> smaller?  Even if you were to output to display only, only people 
with Adobe
> RGB capable displays could render the image properly.  Marketing 
hype?

I understand the argument in theory but if adobe RGB > inkjet > press then a
monitor that can do Adobe RGB is rather pointless.  I guess it hinges on
whether monitor > inkjet (if inkjet > press).  I use an Eye-One but don't
think that can "display" a profile let alone show the difference between two
profiles.  I guess I can see the differences on any actual image by
converting to my colour print space, showing gamut warning and using
absolute colormetric rendering for a proof to the monitor space.  I very
much doubt there is anything I can print that can't be displayed on my Apple
Cinema Display.

> From: Louis Dina <lbdina@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:52:22 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New LCD monitor for color/photo professionals
> 
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Color spaces overlap.  While a good CRT generally has a larger
> overall gamut than a printing press, there are many colors that a
> press can display that a typical good CRT cannot.  Adobe RGB
> encompasses a larger percentage of these colors.  Inkjets have a
> larger gamut than a printing press.  Since most CRTs have a color
> space very close to sRGB, you miss seeing a lot of colors.
> 
> If you have ColorThink, or another good profile display program, you
> can compare all these color gamuts and see why we would want a
> monitor that can display Adobe RGB, at least for color work.
> 
> Lou
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> Question: why do you need Adobe RGB if most output spaces are much
> much
>> smaller?  Even if you were to output to display only, only people
> with Adobe
>> RGB capable displays could render the image properly.  Marketing
> hype?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> From: bdhainsw [mailto:brad.hainsworth@...]
>
> This was just anounced this week:
>
> http://www.all-about-
> monitors.com/nec_lcd_technologies_announces_high_end_21_3_inch_gb.jsp
> x

(A.K.A. http://tinyurl.com/669zk)

Not surprisingly, it uses LEDs for the backlight. They have much narrower
spectral bands, hence the wider gamut.

It looks nice, but it's still only 1600x1200. That's a big step down for me.
I've got more pixels on my laptop. I'm looking forward to when 2048x1536
displays drop below $1500.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> ...I use an Eye-One but don't
> think that can "display" a profile let alone show the difference
between two
> profiles.

As Lou said Colorthink, and probably other utilities, can do just
that. Also, if you load your monitor profile into proof setup with
gamut warning on you will be able to see if there are colors in your
file outside the monitor gamut. Or, if you prefer, convert to the
print space then do the same test.

>  ...I very
> much doubt there is anything I can print that can't be displayed on
my Apple
> Cinema Display.

There are clearly colors, even with the Ultrachrome inks, that fall
outside monitor gamut in tests here. There are even a few yellows
outside the AdobeRGB space.
There was a famous on line debate between Jon Cone and David Tobie
years ago about the need (or not) to work in ColorMatch so the monitor
could easily show file gamut.
There are advantages to increasing monitor gamut, as many who jumped
on the Sony Artisan bandwagon reprted.

Tyler
www.custom-digital.com

> I understand the argument in theory but if adobe RGB > inkjet > 
press then a
> monitor that can do Adobe RGB is rather pointless.  I guess it 
hinges on
> whether monitor > inkjet (if inkjet > press).  I use an Eye-One but 
don't
> think that can "display" a profile let alone show the difference 
between two
> profiles.  I guess I can see the differences on any actual image by
> converting to my colour print space, showing gamut warning and using
> absolute colormetric rendering for a proof to the monitor space.  I 
very
> much doubt there is anything I can print that can't be displayed on 
my Apple
> Cinema Display.

Steve,

It's hard to explain unless you can see a comparison of gamut plots 
in a program like ColorThink.  There ARE colors that lie outside of 
the average sRGB monitor gamut, (approximated by most monitors being 
used today), but that can be printed on an inkjet or a press.  I'd 
like to see those colors on my monitor when I am editing and 
preparing a file for output.  That is the point.  Compare the gamuts 
of sRGB, Adobe RGB, a custom Epson profile and US Sheetfed Coated.  
It will then become clear why a monitor that displays the full Adobe 
RGB gamut is desireable.  

Lou

Steve,

If you upload your Cinema profile and your printer profile to 
http://www.iccview.de/index_eng.htm
you will get a straightforward 3D comparison of the two and you will be able 
to see if any of the printer colors are outside your Cinema's capabilities.

I was surprised at the limited gamut of my Formac Gallery 20 lcd, compared 
with my Artisan.

Using the ICCview site above, I can see that a 2200/2100 printing on Premium 
Semigloss with UC can print colors outside my Formac profile, and indeed 
some colors outside even Adobe98!

You might be in for a surprise!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>



I understand the argument in theory but if adobe RGB > inkjet > press then a
monitor that can do Adobe RGB is rather pointless.  I guess it hinges on
whether monitor > inkjet (if inkjet > press).  I use an Eye-One but don't
think that can "display" a profile let alone show the difference between two
profiles.  I guess I can see the differences on any actual image by
converting to my colour print space, showing gamut warning and using
absolute colormetric rendering for a proof to the monitor space.  I very
much doubt there is anything I can print that can't be displayed on my Apple
Cinema Display.

A surprise indeed!!!  Very cool site.  I stand very much corrected.  Thanks.

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:34:08 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New LCD monitor for color/photo professionals
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> If you upload your Cinema profile and your printer profile to
> http://www.iccview.de/index_eng.htm
> you will get a straightforward 3D comparison of the two and you will be able
> to see if any of the printer colors are outside your Cinema's capabilities.
> 
> I was surprised at the limited gamut of my Formac Gallery 20 lcd, compared
> with my Artisan.
> 
> Using the ICCview site above, I can see that a 2200/2100 printing on Premium
> Semigloss with UC can print colors outside my Formac profile, and indeed
> some colors outside even Adobe98!
> 
> You might be in for a surprise!
> 
> Bob Frost.
>

Steve Kale writes:

> Question: why do you need Adobe RGB if most output spaces are much much
> smaller?  Even if you were to output to display only, only people with Adobe
> RGB capable displays could render the image properly.  Marketing hype?

Because you might someday want to display or print your image on
something with a larger gamut.

Steve,

Glad you liked it. When I found it, I spent a very 'educational' afternoon 
uploading a whole range of different printer profiles for different Epsons 
with different papers and inks, and comparing them. The only disadvantage is 
the site does not retain them, so next time you go back you have to upload 
them again. But I learnt a lot about my printer/monitor/workingspace 
profiles.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>



A surprise indeed!!!  Very cool site.  I stand very much corrected.  Thanks.

All,
	so...I'm thinking about just buying a new 1280 with an extended 
warranty rather than getting mine fixed.  OR, I'm thinking about selling 
my UT2 CFS.  Therefore:

-anyone interested in buying a UT2 CFS?  Eboni black, used for only a 
month or so on maybe 20 prints.  I'm in the bay area, so it's obviously 
easier to sell to someone around here.  make an offer.

OR

-has anyone tried getting a printer fixed that has the extended Mack 
warranty?  how strict are they on modifications?  Would purging the 
print head by sufficient?

allan
-- 
Technical Projects Specialist
Academic Computing
Stanford University
v - (650) 996-0546
f - (650) 725-4685

I have set up three PS scratch disks, two internal drives and one external.
The external drive never blinked even when I had just 1Gb of memory and was
working on files much larger in size.  Does PS not use all scratch drives at
the same time?  Are they only used sequentially (which would seem to be a
waste)?

Yes

On Mar 22, 2005, at 9:37 AM, Steve Kale wrote:

> Are they only used sequentially

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks

> From: Mark Savoia <mark@...>
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> On Mar 22, 2005, at 9:37 AM, Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> Are they only used sequentially
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Thanks
> 
> 
> > From: Mark Savoia <mark@c...>
> > 
> > 
> > Yes
> > 
> > On Mar 22, 2005, at 9:37 AM, Steve Kale wrote:
> > 
> >> Are they only used sequentially
> > 
> >

Not only that, but if you're on a Win Machine you're limited to 3.99 
GB per single file size unless you format the scratch drive in NTFS

Steve Karafyllakis

"Not only that, but if you're on a Win Machine you're limited to 3.99
GB per single file size unless you format the scratch drive in NTFS

Steve Karafyllakis"

Just curious Steve, has that ever been a problem with you?

Even 1 gb is a huge file.

Scott

Scott,

1GB isn't very big for a scratch file; the image may have several layers and 
all those different history states to remember. The default is 20 history 
states; I use 50 and others use even more. Open a couple of files at the 
same time, use the file browser, and the scratch file can easily get to 4GB.

Bob Frost

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@...>

"Not only that, but if you're on a Win Machine you're limited to 3.99
GB per single file size unless you format the scratch drive in NTFS

Just curious Steve, has that ever been a problem with you?
Even 1 gb is a huge file.

I'm not a computer engineer but wouldn't it make sense for PS to be able to
access multiple scratch disks - at the same time?  Seems that there would
not be many situations when more than one scratch disk (being the "media"
drive where the .psd ideally resides) is helpful.

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:27:12 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Puzzled by PS scratch drives
> 
> 
> Scott,
> 
> 1GB isn't very big for a scratch file; the image may have several layers and
> all those different history states to remember. The default is 20 history
> states; I use 50 and others use even more. Open a couple of files at the
> same time, use the file browser, and the scratch file can easily get to 4GB.
> 
> Bob Frost
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@...>
> 
> "Not only that, but if you're on a Win Machine you're limited to 3.99
> GB per single file size unless you format the scratch drive in NTFS
> 
> Just curious Steve, has that ever been a problem with you?
> Even 1 gb is a huge file.

Yes and no.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> I'm not a computer engineer but wouldn't it make sense for PS to be 
> able to access multiple scratch disks - at the same time? Seems
> that there would not be many situations when more than one scratch 
> disk ... is helpful.

Yes. Maybe someone who knows the inards of PS can tell whether PS
accesses multiple scratch disks on a multiprocessor system. Ideally PS
should be able to parallelize sub tasks for layer groups where
possible (maybe it is already doing it). Perhaps with a striped set
the need to access multiple drives (or partitions) is not that
urgent. 

> ... (being the "media" drive where the .psd ideally resides)

Ideally the scratch disk should at least be in a dedicated partition
to avoid performance degradation due to drive fragmentation. It should
have nothing except the scratch file. Once PS opens a file it works
entirely off of its temporary image until it is saved (or reverted).

--nick

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> 
> "Not only that, but if you're on a Win Machine you're limited to 
3.99
> GB per single file size unless you format the scratch drive in NTFS
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis"
> 
> Just curious Steve, has that ever been a problem with you?
> 
> Even 1 gb is a huge file.
> 
> Scott

That's scratch file size we're talking about-you can get up to that 
limit very quickly if you're editing even 200MB in 16 bit. And yes, 
until I discovered that limit and reformatted, I got 'running out of 
drive-space' notices constantly, even with a total of 16GB od 
scratch drives, most of which wern't being used. In fact, I never 
found a PS temp file in any but the first two scratch drives!

Steve Karafyllakis

I just had  a problem with my last computer that only had 512mb of 
ram.

I tried opening files that were around 1gb and it was pretty much 
useless. The scratch disk wasn't much help.

My new pc has 3gb ram. Much better!


Scott

 
> That's scratch file size we're talking about-you can get up to that 
> limit very quickly if you're editing even 200MB in 16 bit. And yes, 
> until I discovered that limit and reformatted, I got 'running out 
of 

> drive-space' notices constantly, even with a total of 16GB od 
> scratch drives, most of which wern't being used. In fact, I never 
> found a PS temp file in any but the first two scratch drives!
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis

I just upped my RAM to 3GB also.  What a dream improvement.

> From: scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 02:18:54 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Puzzled by PS scratch drives
> 
> 
> 
> I just had  a problem with my last computer that only had 512mb of
> ram.
> 
> I tried opening files that were around 1gb and it was pretty much
> useless. The scratch disk wasn't much help.
> 
> My new pc has 3gb ram. Much better!
> 
> 
> Scott

All,
	Well, it looks like I'm just going to give up on the b&w printing for 
now, since it's just too expensive for me to replace my printer or get 
it fixed.
	Does anyone in the bay area want a UT2 CFS for a 1280?  I'd prefer to 
actually sell it so please make an offer, but I'd also rather have it be 
used than just sit and waste away on my now very empty desk.

allan
-- 
Technical Projects Specialist
Academic Computing
Stanford University
v - (650) 996-0546
f - (650) 725-4685