Digital BW, The Print

In a FAQ section at

http://www.mandmstudios.com/inkfaq.html#longevity

The following claim is made for the Indelible inks:

"6. ... Our black is pure carbon, so it is over 800-900 years of longevity.
..."

If someone who uses this ink could get me a "black ink only" test print (6
inches long or somewhat less) of the 21-step test file on any coated paper
(EAM or Museo best) I'd love to stick it in the fader to see how this ink
compares to what most of us use.

To say I'm skeptical is an understatement.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

1424 Aarhus Dr.
Solvang, CA 93463

Paul

Just to put it in perspective, what is your feeling about the other pure
carbon blacks, like those from Piezo color, original Generations, original
MIS quads? They do fair considerably better than the dye/pigment hybrids,
don't they?

(just curious, not trying to defend an 800 year prediction...)

Todd

> In a FAQ section at
> 
> http://www.mandmstudios.com/inkfaq.html#longevity
> 
> The following claim is made for the Indelible inks:
> 
> "6. ... Our black is pure carbon, so it is over 800-900 years of longevity.
> ..."
> 
> If someone who uses this ink could get me a "black ink only" test print (6
> inches long or somewhat less) of the 21-step test file on any coated paper
> (EAM or Museo best) I'd love to stick it in the fader to see how this ink
> compares to what most of us use.
> 
> To say I'm skeptical is an understatement.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 1424 Aarhus Dr.
> Solvang, CA 93463
> 
> 
> 
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>

>>Paul Roark wrote: 
>>To say I'm skeptical is an understatement.

Who sells these inks? Is there a web page?. 

This is on the FAQ,

"NOTE: If you have been running Bull Dog or Cone Inks, they tend to 
scum up the 1 micron filter in the head and the residue from running 
these other inks might take a service call to clean the heads 
properly BEFORE running our cleaning solution and ink set."

WOW, does that sound familiar!

Mike

Paul-

This thread got me curious enough to look (sounds like he works 
for "M&M"):

>>>>---From:  test <nonak@a...>
Date:  Sat Nov 17, 2001  6:36 pm
Subject:  Re: [InkOptions] Indellibles vs generations

 
All I can Say is use the Indelibels, I,ve been using them for about a 
year now and they are the best ink I've ever used.. (oh ya I do sell 
them, but I also use them in my own Giclee print business, and would 
not 
even consider using any other ink) Mike @ M & M
On Saturday, November 17, 2001, at 06:39 PM, msellers1@e... 
wrote:

> I just bought an epson 7000 and I am trying to decide on inks.I
> purchased a set of Generations to use after I test the printer with
> the Epson dyes but after reading the comments on this list about the
> Indellibles I am wondering if I should forget the Generations and go
> with the Indellibles.Is it too soon to go with the Indellibles?
Should
> I wait for more testing to be done?I read that its not good for the
> printer to switch back and forth from one brand of inks to another 
so
> I want to pick one and stay with it.

 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" 
<mkravit@k...> wrote:
> >>Paul Roark wrote: 
> >>To say I'm skeptical is an understatement.
> 
> Who sells these inks? Is there a web page?. 
> 
> This is on the FAQ,
> 
> "NOTE: If you have been running Bull Dog or Cone Inks, they tend to 
> scum up the 1 micron filter in the head and the residue from 
running 

> these other inks might take a service call to clean the heads 
> properly BEFORE running our cleaning solution and ink set."
> 
> WOW, does that sound familiar!
> 
> Mike

In a message dated 11/25/2001 7:08:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
tomoc@... writes:

<< All I can Say is use the Indelibels, I,ve been using them for about a 
 year now and they are the best ink I've ever used.. >>
Hi,
If you wanted to switch over to OEM or Cone Pigs or whatever, do you have to 
flush your system after using the I ink for a year?
George J Kunze

Todd,

You wrote:

>... what is your feeling about the other pure
>carbon blacks, like those from Piezo color, original Generations, original
>MIS quads? They do fair considerably better than the dye/pigment hybrids,
>don't they?

I don't think anyone uses pure carbon.  It's just not black enough and too
warm.  My understanding is that the black pigments used in Piezo BW, MIS VM
& FS, and standard MIS are composed of carbon that is coated with a black
colorant.  The hybrid that is used by Media Street, called its "Enhanced"
black, is apparently coated carbon with dye added to the solution.  This
added dye it is generally going to fade faster.  And, in my tests it does.
However, it gets a great black and is no weakling.  After all, I think
Generations is close to 100 years now in its Wilhelm testing.

So, my guess is that the Indelible black is also a coated carbon.  I'd be
surprised if it did significantly better than the Piezo BW or MIS VM/FS
blacks, which, in my testing, are very good in terms of longevity and have a
very nice Dmax, even if not quite up to what the dyes can achieve.

In one post on the 9000 list someone seemed to say that the Indelible inks
are actually purchased from a company that sells to MIS.  So, they might
even be the same material as used in these other black pigments.

I, too, am curious.  If someone has found a super pig that can last 800-900
years I might even pay their outrageous price.  However, I'd guess the price
isn't nearly as outrageous as the longevity claim.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

____________________________________


> In a FAQ section at
>
> http://www.mandmstudios.com/inkfaq.html#longevity
>
> The following claim is made for the Indelible inks:
>
> "6. ... Our black is pure carbon, so it is over 800-900 years of
longevity.

> ..."
>
> If someone who uses this ink could get me a "black ink only" test print (6
> inches long or somewhat less) of the 21-step test file on any coated paper
> (EAM or Museo best) I'd love to stick it in the fader to see how this ink
> compares to what most of us use.
>
> To say I'm skeptical is an understatement.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

>The hybrid that is used by Media Street, called its "Enhanced"
> black, is apparently coated carbon with dye added to the 
>solution. 

Just to be clear, MediaStreet sells two different blacks within 
their pigment line: the first is the one you mention, called 
Enhanced Black, which has some dye. The second they call 
Standard Black, which contains no dye. Obviously, the Enhanced 
black will be punchier. The tradeoff is that the Enchanced has 
shorter anticipated lifespan. Personally, I use the Standard, and 
while I'm not super-knocked-out by the black like I was with the 
dye black, I take comfort in believing that it's not going to fade in 
twenty or so years. It's just a personal choice I've made.

> In one post on the 9000 list someone seemed to say that the 
>Indelible inks
> are actually purchased from a company that sells to MIS.

I keep hearing about this mystery company; I think the name is 
Magrooder, or Magruder. I've heard all kinds of stories, like that 
they make the ink for EVERYBODY, and then each company 
(MIS, Indelible, etc) kinda monkeys with this "master ink" to give it 
their own flavor and individual traits. Again, all of this is rumor or 
hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt. But I've heard that name 
more than once. They're almost like the Great Oz by now; this 
mystery entity behind the Big Curtain.

-MarkTucker, http://marktucker.com

Regarding that Magruder rumor, I found this through Google. 
Could this be the Mac-Daddy? Is this The Great Oz? The Queen 
Bee? The Mother of All Ink Companies?...

http://www.magruder.com/

[snip]

Established for over 70 years, Magruder Color Company is a 
basic pigment manufacturer with major emphasis in the Graphic 
Arts Industry. Products include organic pigments supplied as dry 
color, presscake and flushed color dispersions, fluorescent 
pigments and dispersions, specialty varnishes, acrylic chip color 
concentrates, liquid dispersions, and polyolefinic concentrates.

Magruder Color Company supplies quality products on a 
world-wide basis to the ink, paint, and plastics industries for a 
variety of applications includingÊ sheetfed and web-offset printing 
inks, heatset inks, news inks, tyvek inks, metal decorating inks,
textile inks, acrylic flexographic water ink systems, crayons, 
artist's colors, finishes, coatings, and other specialty systems 
using colors.

[end snip]

Hello all,
I haven't brought up the indelible inks on this list in quite awhile.
 
Actually, I don't think I have ever brought them up myself, just 
responding to other folks on the list.  This ink seems to stir up all 
sorts of questions whenever it is mentioned, so I will do my best to 
answer a few of them.

There are three dealers of this ink.  I am one of them, the other two 
don't subscribe to this list as far as I know. For those of you who 
don't know me, my name is Tony Caltabiano, and I make art like most 
everyone else on the list, and I don't earn a living from selling
ink.  
For anyone who has specific questions about this ink, my email
address 
is Calpen1@..., and my business phone # is 909 734 5924.  As I 
have said in the past, this forum is mainly for black and white, and
I 
as well as most of you probably don't want color ink dominating this 
list unless it pertains to making good bw prints.

As far as image fading goes, I sent Robert Rex a sample of the 
indelible ink printed on ESFA and it is in Crane's fade tester as we 
speak.

I can't answer a lot of detailed questions about the ink composition, 
as a great deal of it is proprietary, and I don't have access to the 
specific info.

When the quad and hex versions of this ink are ready for sale, you 
will hear a lot more about it from me.  No, I don't know when they 
will be ready.  Hopefully soon.

I have found that this black is darkest on ESFA.  I got a density of 
1.66 on that paper.  Most hanemule papers I have tried are slightly 
lighter.  This matches what I have gotten on Cone's quad black on 
wells river.

I am still messing around with profiles on my Best XXL rip (got a 
coupon for profilecity - will get that taken care of soon)  but so 
far, my black and white prints with this color inkset have a little 
crossover like the other ink I have tried, but when I add a little 
warmth to it (to get close to cone quad's look) the crossover isn't 
noticeable.

I have enjoyed reading Tyler Boley's posts on this list and others 
regarding his tests of the indelible ink.  He is honest, and tells it 
like it is, so you can trust his word, if you have trouble trusting
me 
because I'm a dealer.  Thank you, Tyler!

For those who don't know,the most talk about the indelible ink is 
found on the inkoptions list.  

I hope this helps a little.  As time goes by, and more people get 
their hands on the indelible ink, I think some of the mystery will go 
away.

Best to all,
Tony

"Mark Tucker" <mark@...> wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
><paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> >The hybrid that is used by Media Street, called its "Enhanced"
> > black, is apparently coated carbon with dye added to the
> >solution.
>
>Just to be clear, MediaStreet sells two different blacks within
>their pigment line: the first is the one you mention, called
>Enhanced Black, which has some dye. The second they call
>Standard Black, which contains no dye. Obviously, the Enhanced
>black will be punchier. The tradeoff is that the Enchanced has
>shorter anticipated lifespan. Personally, I use the Standard, and
>while I'm not super-knocked-out by the black like I was with the
>dye black, I take comfort in believing that it's not going to fade in
>twenty or so years. It's just a personal choice I've made.

Not to criticize Mark's choice, but apparently neither is the 
Enhanced (nee "Beta") Black going to fade in 20 or so years - or even 
in 100 - at least not in the company of the other three Generations 
inks (as long as the yellow is the new yellow) on MediaStreet's Royal 
Plush paper.

My very vague remembrance is that when MediaStreet introduced what 
was then called "Beta Black", the resulting inkset tested out at 26 
years. But that the improvements made since then have resulted from 
bolstering the yellow ink, which I believe is now the fourth yellow 
to be used.

Such "weakest-link" tests are however more comforting for color 
prints. Have similar tests for the individual inks been published? I 
think I've seen them only for the tests of MIS inks which MIS had 
done at RIT.

Sam

> > In one post on the 9000 list someone seemed to say that the
> >Indelible inks
> > are actually purchased from a company that sells to MIS.
>
>I keep hearing about this mystery company; I think the name is
>Magrooder, or Magruder. I've heard all kinds of stories, like that
>they make the ink for EVERYBODY, and then each company
>(MIS, Indelible, etc) kinda monkeys with this "master ink" to give it
>their own flavor and individual traits. Again, all of this is rumor or
>hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt. But I've heard that name
>more than once. They're almost like the Great Oz by now; this
>mystery entity behind the Big Curtain.
>
>-MarkTucker, http://marktucker.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Sam A. McCandless" 
<samcc@v...> wrote:
> Not to criticize Mark's choice, but apparently neither is the 
> Enhanced (nee "Beta") Black going to fade in 20 or so years - 
or even 
> in 100 - at least not in the company of the other three 
Generations 
> inks (as long as the yellow is the new yellow) on MediaStreet's 
Royal 
> Plush paper.


Sam,

Thanks for the note. I continue to read about and be curious 
about the Enhanced Black. At some point, if I felt good 
enough about it, I might make the switch to that. I just went 
through a period where I wanted longevity to be the main 
motivating factor; I guess at some point I could begin to work 
backwards, making small sacrifices to improve gamut, while still 
feeling good about longevity.

I am indeed using the "new yellow", which probably *was* the 
Achilles Heel before with their older one, (and supposedly is the 
Achilles Heel of Indelibles as well).

> Such "weakest-link" tests are however more comforting for 
>color prints.

For what it's worth, I'm ONLY printing B/W images, but using 
color inks, due to the fact that I'm toning way further than the 
available gamut of the VM inks. B/W printing is all that interests 
me.

Thanks again,

Mark Tucker

Tom, Why are they better than MIS or Generations?  and aren't they
terribly expensive in comparison to those inksets?

Thanks..

Jerry

> 
> All I can Say is use the Indelibels, I,ve been using them for about a
> year now and they are the best ink I've ever used.. (oh ya I do sell
> them, but I also use them in my own Giclee print business, and would
> not
> even consider using any other ink) Mike @ M & M