Digital BW, The Print

I have several questions regarding the workflow for QTRgui using WinXP
and PhotoShop. Here is what I do now. Please advise if this can be
improved.
1. When opening a b&w file in PS I convert to QTR-Gray Lab space from
my default Dot Gain 20%. I use Dot Gain 20% because I don't see a
choice of QTR-Gray Lab in Color Settings.
2. After finishing editing I then convert to QTR-Gray Matte Paper or
Gray Photo Paper depending on whether I am printing to matte paper or
glossy paper. I convert vs apply because the Win version requires me
to save the file before exporting it to QTR.
3. I then jump to QTR, fill out the form and print. So far my prints
look good but can I do better?
4. One problem I see is constantly changing back and forth between
gray lab and Gray Paper. Does this degrade the file? Is there a way to
set the default color setting as Gray Lab? Should I do so?

Thanks,
Chuck

> From: Charles Wilber <cwilber@...>

> 
> I have several questions regarding the workflow for QTRgui using WinXP
> and PhotoShop. Here is what I do now. Please advise if this can be
> improved.
> 1. When opening a b&w file in PS I convert to QTR-Gray Lab space from
> my default Dot Gain 20%. I use Dot Gain 20% because I don't see a
> choice of QTR-Gray Lab in Color Settings.

You should be able to load QTR Grey Lab as your workspace.  I am on a Mac
and so there is likely someone out there better suited to help you as to why
you don't see it as an option but if you have placed the profile in the
right place (see the instructions in the download file) then it should
appear at the bottom of the list when you go to colour settings and then
select gray.


> 2. After finishing editing

I would save a master here.

> I then convert to QTR-Gray Matte Paper or
> Gray Photo Paper depending on whether I am printing to matte paper or
> glossy paper. I convert vs apply because the Win version requires me
> to save the file before exporting it to QTR.

Yes.  Should be about right - use a proof setup with simulate ink black
checked for an accurate preview of the print prior to going to 3.

> 3. I then jump to QTR, fill out the form and print. So far my prints
> look good but can I do better?


> 4. One problem I see is constantly changing back and forth between
> gray lab and Gray Paper. Does this degrade the file? Is there a way to
> set the default color setting as Gray Lab? Should I do so?

You should only go to a paper profile for your print version.  So keep a
master prior to this point.  Yes you should be able to have it as your
workspace and yes you should.  Generally Lab's L channel is more intuitive
for B&W work - I can't say the same for colour.  L=50 is Kodak grey and L is
linearised when making QTR curves.  All-in-all a little neater.

> 1. When opening a b&w file in PS I convert to QTR-Gray Lab 
> space from my default Dot Gain 20%. I use Dot Gain 20% 
> because I don't see a choice of QTR-Gray Lab in Color Settings.
> 2. After finishing editing I then convert to QTR-Gray Matte 
> Paper or Gray Photo Paper depending on whether I am printing 
> to matte paper or glossy paper. I convert vs apply because 
> the Win version requires me to save the file before exporting 
> it to QTR.
> 3. I then jump to QTR, fill out the form and print. So far my 
> prints look good but can I do better?
> 4. One problem I see is constantly changing back and forth 
> between gray lab and Gray Paper. Does this degrade the file? 
> Is there a way to set the default color setting as Gray Lab? 
> Should I do so?

Chuck,

I don't know whether you are starting with RGB digital images, scans or B&W
grayscale so what you need to do might be a little different depending on
your source.

In any case, first of all if you have put the gray-matte, gray-photo and
gray-lab icc files in your "Windows\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color" directory,
they should show in in Photoshop.  Just remember what shows up in Photoshop
will be the profile name, not the file name.  So they show up with names
such as "QTR - Gray Lab".

Once you have done this, under "Edit>Color Settings" in PS, you should be
able to select "QTR - Gray Lab" as your Gray Working Space.  This profile
should show up in the drop-down box and you should be able to set this as
your default gray working space.

Once you have this set up, you should be able to do the following (this is
what I do from scanned B&W negs).

1. Scan the source.  I scan in 16-bit grayscale.

2. Open the raw TIFF in PS.  This file will be an untagged image so I ASSIGN
"QTR - Gray Lab" when I open the file for the first time.  Now I am in my
working space.

3. Do a crop to the edges of the negs to get rid of over scan, basic levels
adjustment and save this as my "original" master.  Everything at this point
gets printed in a contact sheet for further evaluation.

4. For those images I wish to work on further, I continue by doing a final
crop, curves and any other image adjustments and I spot the image to remove
any defects.  This is saved as my "edited" master.

5. To create the print files, I CONVERT to "QTR - Gray Matte" and save this
as a "print" master.  You definitely want to CONVERT at this step and not
ASSIGN the profile.  Convert will change the gray values whereas assign will
just tag the image with the new profile without changing any gray values in
the image.  I generally just append a "pm" or "pp" to the end of the file
name to indicate whether it is a print file for matte paper or a print file
for photo paper and save the file.  This way your print file is never
converted again.  You can either just save this print files for further
printing later on or just delete them and re-create as necessary when you
want to print again.

With this sort of workflow, you should never be converting back and forth.
You do one assignment up front and one conversion for printing and that's
it.

The other general comment is that you could also do the workflow above but
use the RGB versions of the QTR Lab, Matte and Photo profiles.  Downside is
your files triple in size.  But if you are outputting through Qimage, you
might want to consider this because Qimage always works in RGB.  Personally
I have been getting good results just working with the gray profiles, by
YMMV.

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Charles 
Wilber" <cwilber@n...> wrote:
> 
> I have several questions regarding the workflow for QTRgui using 
WinXP
> and PhotoShop. Here is what I do now. Please advise if this can be

> 1. When opening a b&w file in PS I convert to QTR-Gray Lab space 
from
> my default Dot Gain 20%. I use Dot Gain 20% because I don't see a
> choice of QTR-Gray Lab in Color Settings.

If all or most of your grayscale files are destined for QTR you 
should consider making QTR-Gray Lab your default Gray Space by 
clicking Edit/Color Settings and changing the Gray Working Space.


> 2. After finishing editing I then convert to QTR-Gray Matte Paper 
or Gray Photo Paper depending on whether I am printing to matte 
paper or glossy paper. I convert vs apply because the Win version 
requires me to save the file before exporting it to QTR.

It is my understanding that QTR-Gray Matte and Photo Paper are 
profiles.  The purpose is to give you a realistic preview of the 
luminance of your QTR print.  If you click View/Proof Setup/Custom 
and then select the appropriate profile, you will have a good 
preview throughout the editing process.

> From: Andrew Unger <ungram@...>

> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Charles
> Wilber" <cwilber@n...> wrote:

> 
> If all or most of your grayscale files are destined for QTR you
> should consider making QTR-Gray Lab your default Gray Space by
> clicking Edit/Color Settings and changing the Gray Working Space.
> 

Andrew

Wasn't Charles' issue that it doesn't appear in the drop down list?  Maybe,
as a PC user you can help as to why not.

Steve

As someone else replied earlier, I also connot set Gray-Lay as my 
default - I'm on SP Pro w/ PS CS...It just doesn't show up as an option. 
I checked and the profile is "installed" and I do assign it to my 
converted images, so it's there and working as it should, just not 
available as a default for some reason...

Steve Kale wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> You should be able to load QTR Grey Lab as your workspace.  I am on a 
> Mac...
> **
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.4 - Release Date: 3/27/2005
>  
>

To get the QTR Gray Lab space into the drop down list place it in 
Program files\common files\Adobe\Color\Profiles.  The QTR-Matte and 
Photo proofing profiles are put into the Proofing instead of 
Profiles folder (though, if they are in Profiles, they will still be 
recognized).  When you first use these proofing profiles, be sure to 
check "Black Point Compensation" and select "Perceptual rendering" 
and then save the setup so that it can be loaded.  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > From: Andrew Unger <ungram@v...>
> 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Charles
> > Wilber" <cwilber@n...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > If all or most of your grayscale files are destined for QTR you
> > should consider making QTR-Gray Lab your default Gray Space by
> > clicking Edit/Color Settings and changing the Gray Working Space.
> > 
> 
> Andrew
> 
> Wasn't Charles' issue that it doesn't appear in the drop down 
list?  Maybe,

> as a PC user you can help as to why not.
> 
> Steve

I'm on PC and just checked mine (XP Pro).  If your profile is in the correct place (Windows/system 32/spool/drivers/color) it will show up in your drop down in 'color settings' in PSCS.  It will appear as QTR-gray lab.

Diane

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Kale 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 10:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: QTR workflow with PhotoShop on Windows XP


  Andrew

  Wasn't Charles' issue that it doesn't appear in the drop down list?  Maybe,
  as a PC user you can help as to why not.

  Steve




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill, see my answer to Andrew.  Make sure it is in Windows/system 32/spool/drivers/color and it will show up in your dropdown for 'gray' as QTR gray lab in 'color settings' in PSCS.

Diane

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bill Cheadle 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 10:43 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR workflow with PhotoShop on Windows XP


  As someone else replied earlier, I also connot set Gray-Lay as my 
  default - I'm on SP Pro w/ PS CS...It just doesn't show up as an option. 
  I checked and the profile is "installed" and I do assign it to my 
  converted images, so it's there and working as it should, just not 
  available as a default for some reason...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've got the same setup as you Diane, my profiles are all in the right 
spot ans "installed", not just pasted in, and they do not show up as a 
choice in Edit>Color Settings for my grayscale workspace. I also tried 
Andrew's suggestion to put them into the Program files\common 
files\Adobe\Color\Profiles and that didn't work, but moving it down one 
more directory to Program files\common 
files\Adobe\Color\Profiles\recommended did the trick.

Diane Fields wrote:

> I'm on PC and just checked mine (XP Pro). If your profile is in the 
> correct place (Windows/system 32/spool/drivers/color) it will show up 
> in your drop down in 'color settings' in PSCS. It will appear as 
> QTR-gray lab.
>
> Diane
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve Kale
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 10:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: QTR workflow with PhotoShop on Windows XP
>
>
> Andrew
>
> Wasn't Charles' issue that it doesn't appear in the drop down list? Maybe,
> as a PC user you can help as to why not.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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>No virus found in this incoming message.
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>  
>

Diane...double checked, and it's there with all my profiles, just didn't 
show up in the list until I copied it over to Program files\common 
files\Adobe\Color\Profiles\recommended\...odd?

Diane Fields wrote:

> Bill, see my answer to Andrew. Make sure it is in Windows/system 
> 32/spool/drivers/color and it will show up in your dropdown for 'gray' 
> as QTR gray lab in 'color settings' in PSCS.
>
> Diane
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Cheadle
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 10:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR workflow with PhotoShop on Windows XP
>
>
> As someone else replied earlier, I also connot set Gray-Lay as my
> default - I'm on SP Pro w/ PS CS...It just doesn't show up as an option.
> I checked and the profile is "installed" and I do assign it to my
> converted images, so it's there and working as it should, just not
> available as a default for some reason...
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd 
> AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
> ADVERTISEMENT
> click here 
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>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.4 - Release Date: 3/27/2005
>  
>

Isn't that interesting?!?  I just checked my program/common/Adobe/color and 
I don't even HAVE a 'recommended' folder LOL.  I also don't have any of the 
ICC profiles in my 'common, etc.' folder.  All my ICC profiles are in the 
Windows...color folder (where I manually place them).  For my proofing, I 
select 'view/custom' and select my ICC profiles, set the 'black point 
compensation' and 'perceptual' and save it as a proof file--and it is then 
in my programs/common/Adobe/proofing folder with the file name I assigned to 
it.  Makes one wonder?!?!?  LOL.

Diane
-----------
Diane B. Fields
picnic@...
photo site  http://www.pbase.com/picnic

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Bill Cheadle" <wpcheadle@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: QTR workflow with PhotoShop on Windows XP


>
> I've got the same setup as you Diane, my profiles are all in the right
> spot ans "installed", not just pasted in, and they do not show up as a
> choice in Edit>Color Settings for my grayscale workspace. I also tried
> Andrew's suggestion to put them into the Program files\common
> files\Adobe\Color\Profiles and that didn't work, but moving it down one
> more directory to Program files\common
> files\Adobe\Color\Profiles\recommended did the trick.

Boy, I'll say----you'll see my other message come through saying that MY 
profiles aren't in the 'common' folder at all--only in the Windows...color 
folder.  Talk about confusing to people who are relatively new to dealing 
with Windows LOL--or to those writing instructions for how to use the 
programs.

Diane

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Bill Cheadle" <wpcheadle@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR workflow with PhotoShop on Windows XP


>
> Diane...double checked, and it's there with all my profiles, just didn't
> show up in the list until I copied it over to Program files\common
> files\Adobe\Color\Profiles\recommended\...odd?

just write it off to the overall Windows experience...now where'd I 
store that old PowerMac...

Diane Fields wrote:

>Boy, I'll say----you'll see my other message come through saying that MY 
>profiles aren't in the 'common' folder at all--only in the Windows...color 
>folder.  Talk about confusing to people who are relatively new to dealing 
>with Windows LOL--or to those writing instructions for how to use the 
>programs.
>
>Diane
>
>  
>
>  
>

Make sure you check "simulate ink black" in your proof setup.

> From: Diane Fields <picnic@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:11:05 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: QTR workflow with PhotoShop on Windows XP
> 
> 
> Isn't that interesting?!?  I just checked my program/common/Adobe/color and
> I don't even HAVE a 'recommended' folder LOL.  I also don't have any of the
> ICC profiles in my 'common, etc.' folder.  All my ICC profiles are in the
> Windows...color folder (where I manually place them).  For my proofing, I
> select 'view/custom' and select my ICC profiles, set the 'black point
> compensation' and 'perceptual' and save it as a proof file--and it is then
> in my programs/common/Adobe/proofing folder with the file name I assigned to
> it.  Makes one wonder?!?!?  LOL.
> 
> Diane

Yes, I did that (but forgot to mention it in this post) after you pointed that out in another post recently  *smile*.  This is why I like this list---things that one overlooks and really make a difference (because that really DOES make a difference) can be pointed out by someone else--and without any 'accusatory' stance LOL.  

Diane

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Kale 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:32 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: QTR workflow with PhotoShop on Windows XP


  Make sure you check "simulate ink black" in your proof setup.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

:-)

Thanks everyone for your help. I placed the lab gray in the
recommended file and bingo it works. Also thanks for the tip about not
having to convert back and forth. Rather save a master in lab gray and
a seperate one in either photo gray or matte gray. Chuck