Digital BW, The Print

Hello everybody,

I have been a silent reader of this group for couple of week, so let 
me introduce myself before asking the question. I am form Toronto, 
Canada (although originally from Russia) and have been doing 
photography for the last five years and with strong accent on b&w 
photography for the last two years. I still have to learn many 
things, so all criticism is welcomed. 

Up until a month ago, I was doing all my printing in the lab and now 
I finally got my first printer – Epson 2200. Overall, I am very 
happy with it and have no complaints, except some of the aspects of 
printing bw pictures is still a mystery. Couple of days ago, I tried 
Quadtone RIP, which solved some of my problems (thank you Roy!), I 
am still playing, but there is one thing that has me worried.

It seems, that although my monitor is properly calibrated (no 
problem during color printing) bw prints, come out much darker than 
on the screen and with significantly less contrast. It also seems 
that some of black shifts into dark grey. Because of that my 
workflow currently looks like this:
1.	After output sharpening I bring up contrast +15 and 
brightness +10
2.	Then, using curves, I do a two points cut out of black (to 
preserve black)
3.	After that I do the print using QRIP. I review the print, 
compare it to the screen and mark areas that I have to dodge or burn 
to make the image look like the original screen image.
4.	I proceed with dodging and burning and do another test 
print. Once finished testing, I do the enlargement and finally 
proceed with large print.

It seems to work, but I wonder if there is a good way to simplify 
this by adjusting printer or RIP settings to proper brightness / 
contrast levels.
For additional info, I print on Epson Enhanced Matte paper with UC 
inks. In QRIP I found that Ilford Heavy Paper / UC-EEnchMatte 
combination works best for me.

Thanks!

Alexander Poizner
http://thingsdream.com

The first thing I would recomend is to calibrate your screen and 
printer if you haven't done so as of yet. I would recomend 
colovision the web site is www.colorvision.com read the product info 
and decide what will fit your pocketbook and printing needs. The 
best souliton that also works with a rip will set you back $900.00 
but if you are really trying to calibrate your monitor with the 
printer, paper and ink then the price is worth the results.
Michael Fleming
michaelflemingphoto.com
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ap0izner" 
<ap0izner@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I have been a silent reader of this group for couple of week, so 
let 
> me introduce myself before asking the question. I am form Toronto, 
> Canada (although originally from Russia) and have been doing 
> photography for the last five years and with strong accent on b&w 
> photography for the last two years. I still have to learn many 
> things, so all criticism is welcomed. 
> 
> Up until a month ago, I was doing all my printing in the lab and 
now 
> I finally got my first printer – Epson 2200. Overall, I am very 
> happy with it and have no complaints, except some of the aspects 
of 
> printing bw pictures is still a mystery. Couple of days ago, I 
tried 
> Quadtone RIP, which solved some of my problems (thank you Roy!), I 
> am still playing, but there is one thing that has me worried.
> 
> It seems, that although my monitor is properly calibrated (no 
> problem during color printing) bw prints, come out much darker 
than 
> on the screen and with significantly less contrast. It also seems 
> that some of black shifts into dark grey. Because of that my 
> workflow currently looks like this:
> 1.	After output sharpening I bring up contrast +15 and 
> brightness +10
> 2.	Then, using curves, I do a two points cut out of black (to 
> preserve black)
> 3.	After that I do the print using QRIP. I review the print, 
> compare it to the screen and mark areas that I have to dodge or 
burn 

> to make the image look like the original screen image.
> 4.	I proceed with dodging and burning and do another test 
> print. Once finished testing, I do the enlargement and finally 
> proceed with large print.
> 
> It seems to work, but I wonder if there is a good way to simplify 
> this by adjusting printer or RIP settings to proper brightness / 
> contrast levels.
> For additional info, I print on Epson Enhanced Matte paper with UC 
> inks. In QRIP I found that Ilford Heavy Paper / UC-EEnchMatte 
> combination works best for me.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Alexander Poizner
> http://thingsdream.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "flemingee" 
<mfphoto_1@m...> wrote:
> 
> 
> The first thing I would recomend is to calibrate your screen and 
> printer if you haven't done so as of yet. I would recomend 
> colovision the web site is www.colorvision.com read the product info 
> and decide what will fit your pocketbook and printing needs. The 
> best souliton that also works with a rip will set you back $900.00 
> but if you are really trying to calibrate your monitor with the 
> printer, paper and ink then the price is worth the results.
> Michael Fleming
> michaelflemingphoto.com


Michael, 

I do use colorvision for monitor calibration. Are you using PrintFix 
as well? 

Thanks for your help!

Alexander Poizner
http://thingsdream.com

Use the QTR Grey Lab and QTR Matte/Photo paper ICC profile workflow that has
been descibed many times here.  You should, if your monitor is correctly
profiled, get accurate softproofing and prints.

> From: ap0izner <ap0izner@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:42:18 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Contrast / brightness settings problem w Epson 2200
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I have been a silent reader of this group for couple of week, so let
> me introduce myself before asking the question. I am form Toronto,
> Canada (although originally from Russia) and have been doing
> photography for the last five years and with strong accent on b&w
> photography for the last two years. I still have to learn many
> things, so all criticism is welcomed.
> 
> Up until a month ago, I was doing all my printing in the lab and now
> I finally got my first printer ­ Epson 2200. Overall, I am very
> happy with it and have no complaints, except some of the aspects of
> printing bw pictures is still a mystery. Couple of days ago, I tried
> Quadtone RIP, which solved some of my problems (thank you Roy!), I
> am still playing, but there is one thing that has me worried.
> 
> It seems, that although my monitor is properly calibrated (no
> problem during color printing) bw prints, come out much darker than
> on the screen and with significantly less contrast. It also seems
> that some of black shifts into dark grey. Because of that my
> workflow currently looks like this:
> 1. After output sharpening I bring up contrast +15 and
> brightness +10
> 2. Then, using curves, I do a two points cut out of black (to
> preserve black)
> 3. After that I do the print using QRIP. I review the print,
> compare it to the screen and mark areas that I have to dodge or burn
> to make the image look like the original screen image.
> 4. I proceed with dodging and burning and do another test
> print. Once finished testing, I do the enlargement and finally
> proceed with large print.
> 
> It seems to work, but I wonder if there is a good way to simplify
> this by adjusting printer or RIP settings to proper brightness /
> contrast levels.
> For additional info, I print on Epson Enhanced Matte paper with UC
> inks. In QRIP I found that Ilford Heavy Paper / UC-EEnchMatte
> combination works best for me.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Alexander Poizner
> http://thingsdream.com
>

In th eEpson driver, make sure you are using Gamma 1.8. 

It will print lighter than gamma 2.2.

Gamma 1.5 (if available) will print lighter still, than gamma 1.5.


Just a thought,

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ap0izner" 
<ap0izner@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I have been a silent reader of this group for couple of week, so 
let 
> me introduce myself before asking the question. I am form Toronto, 
> Canada (although originally from Russia) and have been doing 
> photography for the last five years and with strong accent on b&w 
> photography for the last two years. I still have to learn many 
> things, so all criticism is welcomed. 
> 
> Up until a month ago, I was doing all my printing in the lab and 
now 
> I finally got my first printer – Epson 2200. Overall, I am very 
> happy with it and have no complaints, except some of the aspects of 
> printing bw pictures is still a mystery. Couple of days ago, I 
tried 
> Quadtone RIP, which solved some of my problems (thank you Roy!), I 
> am still playing, but there is one thing that has me worried.
> 
> It seems, that although my monitor is properly calibrated (no 
> problem during color printing) bw prints, come out much darker than 
> on the screen and with significantly less contrast. It also seems 
> that some of black shifts into dark grey. Because of that my 
> workflow currently looks like this:
> 1.	After output sharpening I bring up contrast +15 and 
> brightness +10
> 2.	Then, using curves, I do a two points cut out of black (to 
> preserve black)
> 3.	After that I do the print using QRIP. I review the print, 
> compare it to the screen and mark areas that I have to dodge or 
burn 

> to make the image look like the original screen image.
> 4.	I proceed with dodging and burning and do another test 
> print. Once finished testing, I do the enlargement and finally 
> proceed with large print.
> 
> It seems to work, but I wonder if there is a good way to simplify 
> this by adjusting printer or RIP settings to proper brightness / 
> contrast levels.
> For additional info, I print on Epson Enhanced Matte paper with UC 
> inks. In QRIP I found that Ilford Heavy Paper / UC-EEnchMatte 
> combination works best for me.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Alexander Poizner
> http://thingsdream.com

I think he mentioned he is using QTR....

> From: scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:52:00 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Contrast / brightness settings problem w Epson 2200
> 
> 
> 
> In th eEpson driver, make sure you are using Gamma 1.8.
> 
> It will print lighter than gamma 2.2.
> 
> Gamma 1.5 (if available) will print lighter still, than gamma 1.5.
> 
> 
> Just a thought,
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ap0izner"
> <ap0izner@y...> wrote:
>> 


>> Couple of days ago, I
>> tried 
>> Quadtone RIP, which solved some of my problems (thank you Roy!), I
>> am still playing, but there is one thing that has me worried.
>> 
>> It seems, that although my monitor is properly calibrated (no
>> problem during color printing) bw prints, come out much darker than
>> on the screen and with significantly less contrast.

Alexander,

Here's what Paul Roark has to say about monitor calibration:

Monitor to Print Matching
There are several ways to adjust the image on the monitor if the
prints and monitor do not match well. Note that the calibration
programs that are popular and very useful for color printers are
neither necessary nor even that helpful for B&W printing.

Perhaps the easiest way to match the monitor to the printer's
characteristics is just to make a Photoshop curves adjustment layer.
However, with these you have to remember to deactivate the layer
before printing.

Another very useful method takes advantage of Photoshop's preview or
"soft proofing" capabilities. This system is excellent once set up,
but the process requires that a custom dot gain curve be made in
Photoshop. The procedure, which must be followed exactly, is spelled
out in detail here.<http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Monitor-Profiling.htm>

Good Luck


Drime

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Drime K."
<kdrime@g...> wrote:
> Alexander,
> 
> Here's what Paul Roark has to say about monitor calibration:
> 
> Monitor to Print Matching
> There are several ways to adjust the image on the monitor if the
> prints and monitor do not match well. Note that the calibration
> programs that are popular and very useful for color printers are
> neither necessary nor even that helpful for B&W printing.

IME, the problem of "too dark" prints has to do with the monitor being
set at far too high a level of luminance--even (or especially if) if
the recommendation of some calbration software is being followed. From
what I've read (and experienced) the default value of monitor
luminance is often specified by the calibration setup to be in excess
of 100 cd/m2, which I and others find is far too high for obtaining
good match prints under normal viewing illumination. This (excessive
luminance) was certainly the case with my Xrite Monaco Optix
calibration, and i had to work around their standard procedure in
order to force a lower value.

Assuming that your monitor luminance isn't already at a "proper"
value, I believe you should try to set it to a value somewhere between
80 and 90 cd/m2. This ought to give quite adequate monitor brightness
under typical ambient lighting and will give a better match for
printed output (as well as be easier on your eyes).

Hope this helps,

Phil

I would try some other papers, I personally found EEM to be a pretty 
flat paper, not able to give good saturated blacks, sort of milky 
gray in the dark areas. I would give velvet fine art a try, I have 
been very pleased with this paper. 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Use the QTR Grey Lab and QTR Matte/Photo paper ICC profile 
workflow that has
> been descibed many times here.  You should, if your monitor is 
correctly
> profiled, get accurate softproofing and prints.
> 
> 
> > From: ap0izner <ap0izner@y...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:42:18 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Contrast / brightness settings problem w 
Epson 2200
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hello everybody,
> > 
> > I have been a silent reader of this group for couple of week, so 
let
> > me introduce myself before asking the question. I am form 
Toronto,
> > Canada (although originally from Russia) and have been doing
> > photography for the last five years and with strong accent on b&w
> > photography for the last two years. I still have to learn many
> > things, so all criticism is welcomed.
> > 
> > Up until a month ago, I was doing all my printing in the lab and 
now
> > I finally got my first printer ­ Epson 2200. Overall, I am very
> > happy with it and have no complaints, except some of the aspects 
of
> > printing bw pictures is still a mystery. Couple of days ago, I 
tried
> > Quadtone RIP, which solved some of my problems (thank you Roy!), 
I
> > am still playing, but there is one thing that has me worried.
> > 
> > It seems, that although my monitor is properly calibrated (no
> > problem during color printing) bw prints, come out much darker 
than
> > on the screen and with significantly less contrast. It also seems
> > that some of black shifts into dark grey. Because of that my
> > workflow currently looks like this:
> > 1. After output sharpening I bring up contrast +15 and
> > brightness +10
> > 2. Then, using curves, I do a two points cut out of black (to
> > preserve black)
> > 3. After that I do the print using QRIP. I review the print,
> > compare it to the screen and mark areas that I have to dodge or 
burn
> > to make the image look like the original screen image.
> > 4. I proceed with dodging and burning and do another test
> > print. Once finished testing, I do the enlargement and finally
> > proceed with large print.
> > 
> > It seems to work, but I wonder if there is a good way to simplify
> > this by adjusting printer or RIP settings to proper brightness /
> > contrast levels.
> > For additional info, I print on Epson Enhanced Matte paper with 
UC

> > inks. In QRIP I found that Ilford Heavy Paper / UC-EEnchMatte
> > combination works best for me.
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > Alexander Poizner
> > http://thingsdream.com
> >

It's not the paper.  EEM and HPR will produce a dMax similar to other
papers, eg HPR and PJA.  It's the workflow.  Get the workflow right first
and then examine other papers with a rigorous workflow rather than random
endeavour.

> From: oboylephoto <oboylephoto@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:12:01 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Contrast / brightness settings problem w Epson 2200
> 
> 
> 
> I would try some other papers, I personally found EEM to be a pretty
> flat paper, not able to give good saturated blacks, sort of milky
> gray in the dark areas. I would give velvet fine art a try, I have
> been very pleased with this paper.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> Use the QTR Grey Lab and QTR Matte/Photo paper ICC profile
> workflow that has
>> been descibed many times here.  You should, if your monitor is
> correctly
>> profiled, get accurate softproofing and prints.
>> 
>>