Digital BW, The Print

I've had a day of printing and profiling using FS thru the piezo driver and
I now can't tell which print is which - slightly different colour but that
is all.

Julian
-----------------------------------
Julian Thomas
Bruc 168-6-1
08037 Barcelona

Gallery at http://www.mwords.co.uk/galleryGuests.htm#
and
http://www.borderless-photos.de/jthomas/jthomas-01.html

tfno 679676321

The FS print is the one that's still wet ;)

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julian Thomas [mailto:julianthomas@...]
> Sent: 30 November 2001 16:45
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] FS
>
>
> I've had a day of printing and profiling using FS thru the piezo
> driver and
> I now can't tell which print is which - slightly different colour but that
> is all.
>
> Julian
> -----------------------------------
> Julian Thomas
> Bruc 168-6-1
> 08037 Barcelona
>
> Gallery at http://www.mwords.co.uk/galleryGuests.htm#
> and
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/jthomas/jthomas-01.html
>
> tfno 679676321

Nah, the Piezo is the one that smells the worst! You are right though, FS
takes longer to dry, but doesn't change colour as much. I'm also using the
new piezo driver whichis cool. I'd been delaying loading it.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nij" <nigel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] FS


> The FS print is the one that's still wet ;)
>
> Nij
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Julian Thomas [mailto:julianthomas@...]
> > Sent: 30 November 2001 16:45
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] FS
> >
> >
> > I've had a day of printing and profiling using FS thru the piezo
> > driver and
> > I now can't tell which print is which - slightly different colour but
that
> > is all.
> >
> > Julian
> > -----------------------------------
> > Julian Thomas
> > Bruc 168-6-1
> > 08037 Barcelona
> >
> > Gallery at http://www.mwords.co.uk/galleryGuests.htm#
> > and
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/jthomas/jthomas-01.html
> >
> > tfno 679676321
>
>
>
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In a message dated 11/30/01 11:47:23 AM, julianthomas@... writes:

<< I've had a day of printing and profiling using FS thru the piezo driver and
I now can't tell which print is which - slightly different colour but that
is all.

Julian >>

Hi Julian:

Is it any less green?

Thanks,

Andy Darlow

In a message dated 11/30/01 12:47:37 PM, julianthomas@... writes:

<< Nah, the Piezo is the one that smells the worst! You are right though, FS
takes longer to dry, but doesn't change colour as much. I'm also using the
new piezo driver whichis cool. I'd been delaying loading it.

Julian >>

Is there less metamarism? Is it warm under tungsten?

Thanks!

-Andy Darlow

Hey Julian,

Piezo smell is the new stop-bath smell! Just kidding of course. Pleased to
hear you are back up and running, howsoever you did it.

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julian Thomas [mailto:julianthomas@...]
> Sent: 30 November 2001 17:47
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
>
>
> Nah, the Piezo is the one that smells the worst! You are right though, FS
> takes longer to dry, but doesn't change colour as much. I'm also using the
> new piezo driver whichis cool. I'd been delaying loading it.
>
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nij" <nigel@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 6:40 PM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] FS
>
>
> > The FS print is the one that's still wet ;)
> >
> > Nij
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Julian Thomas [mailto:julianthomas@...]
> > > Sent: 30 November 2001 16:45
> > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] FS
> > >
> > >
> > > I've had a day of printing and profiling using FS thru the piezo
> > > driver and
> > > I now can't tell which print is which - slightly different colour but
> that
> > > is all.
> > >
> > > Julian
> > > -----------------------------------
> > > Julian Thomas
> > > Bruc 168-6-1
> > > 08037 Barcelona
> > >
> > > Gallery at http://www.mwords.co.uk/galleryGuests.htm#
> > > and
> > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/jthomas/jthomas-01.html
> > >

Yeah, slightly cooler. I'd noticed that someof my very lo key images had a
green cast  - I've reprinted today and they haven't. Mind you, after the
greenies, I imagined green casts every where!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <shashinka@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


>
> In a message dated 11/30/01 11:47:23 AM, julianthomas@... writes:
>
> << I've had a day of printing and profiling using FS thru the piezo driver
and
> I now can't tell which print is which - slightly different colour but that
> is all.
>
> Julian >>
>
> Hi Julian:
>
> Is it any less green?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy Darlow
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>

I never saw metamerism with Piezo - that was one of the things I liked about
it. It is less warm by a tad I'd guess.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <shashinka@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


>
> In a message dated 11/30/01 12:47:37 PM, julianthomas@... writes:
>
> << Nah, the Piezo is the one that smells the worst! You are right though,
FS
> takes longer to dry, but doesn't change colour as much. I'm also using the
> new piezo driver whichis cool. I'd been delaying loading it.
>
> Julian >>
>
> Is there less metamarism? Is it warm under tungsten?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Andy Darlow
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
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>
>
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>
>
>

>Nah, the Piezo is the one that smells the worst! You are right though, FS
>takes longer to dry, but doesn't change colour as much. I'm also using the
>new piezo driver whichis cool. I'd been delaying loading it.
>
>Julian

Julian,

While your memory is still fresh...... Did you experience any banding 
with Piezo. I ask because banding suddenly appeared on my 1160 and I 
could never work out why the sudden change.

I have just visited http://www.lincolninks.com/ where they state:

We do not have a desktop formulation for sale at this time. We are 
beta testing formulations at this time and have had good results in 
EP1200 and EP 900/980 printers. Early tests in the 1160 have shown 
problems with micro-banding in certain colored tones. Wide Spectrum 
inks have not been tried in the 1270/1280 class printers.

This kind of suggests that head alignment is not the only factor in banding.

Regards,

A curious Jerry.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The only time I ever had banding from my good 1160 was after a rare clog or
after the greenies. I am getting some banding with the new cone driver and
fs but I'm putting this down to a new ink set.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <meander@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


> >Nah, the Piezo is the one that smells the worst! You are right though, FS
> >takes longer to dry, but doesn't change colour as much. I'm also using
the
> >new piezo driver whichis cool. I'd been delaying loading it.
> >
> >Julian
>
> Julian,
>
> While your memory is still fresh...... Did you experience any banding
> with Piezo. I ask because banding suddenly appeared on my 1160 and I
> could never work out why the sudden change.
>
> I have just visited http://www.lincolninks.com/ where they state:
>
> We do not have a desktop formulation for sale at this time. We are
> beta testing formulations at this time and have had good results in
> EP1200 and EP 900/980 printers. Early tests in the 1160 have shown
> problems with micro-banding in certain colored tones. Wide Spectrum
> inks have not been tried in the 1270/1280 class printers.
>
> This kind of suggests that head alignment is not the only factor in
banding.
>
> Regards,
>
> A curious Jerry.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
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Julian,

Nice to hear that you are enjoying the FS inkset with the Piezo 
driver. I too have found that my images are a bit cooler. No green 
cast, and the inkset is much less expensive. 

I display my images framed under acrylic and have never really seen 
much fade or color change. The a copy of the image that I sent you 
was on display in a museum gallery all summer under very bright and 
hot lights. I got it back last week and put it against a new print. I 
could not visually find any difference.

I just received the ImagePrint 4.0 RIP. I will be testing it all 
weekend. It is supposed to work with Cone Piezo inks, MIS FS inks, 
and Lyson Quads. It will be interesting to see what it can do. They 
have a site at http://www.colorbytesoftware.com/

Hope to hear more as you printing progresses.

Mike

Well Mike, where you lead, I'll get there eventually! I've got banding at
the moment so I'm ROR-ing and letting it sit! My next purchases will be a
better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and FS inks. I've
made a bad job of the monitor profiling so I need to redo that. Looks good
so far though.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael J. Kravit" <mkravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


> Julian,
>
> Nice to hear that you are enjoying the FS inkset with the Piezo
> driver. I too have found that my images are a bit cooler. No green
> cast, and the inkset is much less expensive.
>
> I display my images framed under acrylic and have never really seen
> much fade or color change. The a copy of the image that I sent you
> was on display in a museum gallery all summer under very bright and
> hot lights. I got it back last week and put it against a new print. I
> could not visually find any difference.
>
> I just received the ImagePrint 4.0 RIP. I will be testing it all
> weekend. It is supposed to work with Cone Piezo inks, MIS FS inks,
> and Lyson Quads. It will be interesting to see what it can do. They
> have a site at http://www.colorbytesoftware.com/
>
> Hope to hear more as you printing progresses.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>
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>
>

>Nah, the Piezo is the one that smells the worst! You are right though, FS
>takes longer to dry, but doesn't change colour as much. I'm also using the
>new piezo driver whichis cool. I'd been delaying loading it.
>
>Julian

I'm finding the same on all three counts. FS ain't as stinky! I am noticing 
a bit more paper curl with it, but not enough to be a problem.

Mark

>Julian,
>
>While your memory is still fresh...... Did you experience any banding
>with Piezo. I ask because banding suddenly appeared on my 1160 and I
>could never work out why the sudden change.

I myself have noticed VERY slight white banding at times on Legion Photo 
Matte, before and after the switch. I haven't noticed a difference as to 
frequency. I haven't seen it on Wells River, but don't print on it that often.

Mark

In a message dated 11/30/2001 12:47:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
julianthomas@... writes:

<<  the Piezo is the one that smells the worst!  >>
Say it ain't so!!!!!
I love the smell of the Piezo.
George J Kunze

In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
julianthomas@... writes:

<< My next purchases will be a
 better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and FS inks. >>
Are you considering the Cone software?
George J Kunze

Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength of the cone
system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints at a
fraction of the cost.  Whether I'll buy the complete kit though ... maybe
Cone will sell just the software?

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <toomagenta@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


> In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> julianthomas@... writes:
>
> << My next purchases will be a
>  better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and FS inks. >>
> Are you considering the Cone software?
> George J Kunze
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>

IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given all the variables out there...it is important to have a system (paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and Piezography System works very well for most people (me included)...if you let people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for instance...or someone elses cheap ink)  then you would open up a can of worms...and potential for customers to complain and complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most expensive part of the equation?) as causing the problem.  

I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported and profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way to go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what I would do too. 

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Julian Thomas 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


  Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength of the cone
  system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints at a
  fraction of the cost.  Whether I'll buy the complete kit though ... maybe
  Cone will sell just the software?

  Julian
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: <toomagenta@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


  > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
  > julianthomas@... writes:
  >
  > << My next purchases will be a
  >  better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and FS inks. >>
  > Are you considering the Cone software?
  > George J Kunze
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > - Include your full name with your message.
  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
  them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
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  resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
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  >
  >
  >


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 12/1/2001 4:31:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
julianthomas@... writes:

<<  there are other rips that work. The strength of the cone
 system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints at a
 fraction of the cost. >>
Thanks for the response. I don't know much about rips and I've been told they 
are mainly for press work. I do use the Piezo in my 1160 with the Cone 
software and I love it. I just bought a 7000 for color, and haven't decided 
what ink to install. I was hoping for the Color Cone pigs, but.... 
Anyway, I find it interesting that you would consider a software other than 
Cone's to run the FS. May one infer that a powerful enough RIP can run the FS 
inks and get them to look as good as the Piezo driver? Can that same rip be 
used on another machine to drive a color system?
Thanks again,
George J Kunze

yeah I agree that commercially the software on its own isn't viable. But
this is why I describe IJM as the Microsoft of the ink biz. A great box of
tricks that causes problems for some people, but not for all.
Philosophically though I prefer Linux.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


> IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given all the
variables out there...it is important to have a system (paper/software/ink)
that works for most people...and Piezography System works very well for most
people (me included)...if you let people change too many of the variables
(unsupported papers for instance...or someone elses cheap ink)  then you
would open up a can of worms...and potential for customers to complain and
complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most expensive part of
the equation?) as causing the problem.
>
> I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported and profiled
papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way to go...if I were
in his shoes running that business that is what I would do too.
>
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Julian Thomas
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
>
>
>   Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength of the cone
>   system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints at a
>   fraction of the cost.  Whether I'll buy the complete kit though ...
maybe
>   Cone will sell just the software?
>
>   Julian
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: <toomagenta@...>
>   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
>
>
>   > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>   > julianthomas@... writes:
>   >
>   > << My next purchases will be a
>   >  better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and FS inks.
>>
>   > Are you considering the Cone software?
>   > George J Kunze
>   >
>   >
>   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
>   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>   > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
>   them short.
>   > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
>   > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
>   > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
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>   >
>   >
>   >
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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>   >
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>
>

Cone Piezo24 uses a RIP. If you are printing big prints on a large format
printer you really need a printer dedicated to the printer. Also it has
benefits in allowing multiple smaller prints to be on a roll of paper. The
cone rip benefits from the profiles. However, I gues that if you use only
one or two kinds of paper, icq profile could be custom made. BTW FS really
is pretty close to ppiezo inks, slightly cooler, and you need to do a slight
curve action to reduce contrast on files done for piezo inks, but once you
have the monitor working space set up it is plug n play. The downside is
that you can't then moan to IJM tech support for problems! You pays yer
money and takes yer choice!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <toomagenta@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


> In a message dated 12/1/2001 4:31:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> julianthomas@... writes:
>
> <<  there are other rips that work. The strength of the cone
>  system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints at a
>  fraction of the cost. >>
> Thanks for the response. I don't know much about rips and I've been told
they
> are mainly for press work. I do use the Piezo in my 1160 with the Cone
> software and I love it. I just bought a 7000 for color, and haven't
decided
> what ink to install. I was hoping for the Color Cone pigs, but....
> Anyway, I find it interesting that you would consider a software other
than
> Cone's to run the FS. May one infer that a powerful enough RIP can run the
FS
> inks and get them to look as good as the Piezo driver? Can that same rip
be
> used on another machine to drive a color system?
> Thanks again,
> George J Kunze
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

That's like saying that people complain to Adobe about results with 
different colour inks and papers when using Photoshop with ICC 
profiles - not likely.  Customers only complain when a vendor's 
technical support can not give clear solutions to problems or point 
people at the reasons for the problems.

My feeling is that the Piezo software could become an industry 
standard by releasing the specification for the ICQ curves - just 
like ICC is a standard today.  Perhaps they could license the ICQ 
spec to other ink and paper vendors to allow the entire industry to 
innovate and in fact expand on the sales of the Piezo software.  
This also lets the market determine which inksets and papers rise to 
the top - and if Piezo gives the best results, the market is quite 
capable of determining that.  There are many historical examples of 
restricted market share resulting from not opening up to standards.

I think opening up the Piezo software would actually increase sales 
and expand the market for Cone.

Regards,
Steve Dolha

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given all 
the variables out there...it is important to have a system 
(paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and Piezography 
System works very well for most people (me included)...if you let 
people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for 
instance...or someone elses cheap ink)  then you would open up a can 
of worms...and potential for customers to complain and 
complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most expensive 
part of the equation?) as causing the problem.  
> 
> I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported and 
profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way to 
go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what I 
would do too. 
> 
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Julian Thomas 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
> 
> 
>   Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength of 
the cone
>   system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints 
at a
>   fraction of the cost.  Whether I'll buy the complete kit 
though ... maybe
>   Cone will sell just the software?
> 
>   Julian
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: <toomagenta@a...>
>   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
>   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
> 
> 
>   > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>   > julianthomas@t... writes:
>   >
>   > << My next purchases will be a
>   >  better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and 
FS inks. >>
>   > Are you considering the Cone software?
>   > George J Kunze
>   >
>   >
>   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
>   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   > - Include your full name with your message.
>   > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
>   them short.
>   > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
>   > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
>   > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
the various
>   resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>   >
>   >
>   >
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
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>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
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>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
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>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree. I think that most of those who would opt for just the Piezo 
software in all likelihood would not be going into the situation 
blind. They would understand that the software is optimized to work 
with the Piezo system as whole. This point could also be made clear 
in marketing the software. Perhaps the "turnkey solution" is the way 
to go, but why not offer a choice? The only reason I see for hard-
bundling the software with ink, etc. is to enforce consumption of 
propriatory consumables. This may turn out to be a strategy with 
diminishing returns.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., spdolha@c... wrote:
> That's like saying that people complain to Adobe about results with 
> different colour inks and papers when using Photoshop with ICC 
> profiles - not likely.  Customers only complain when a vendor's 
> technical support can not give clear solutions to problems or point 
> people at the reasons for the problems.
> 
> My feeling is that the Piezo software could become an industry 
> standard by releasing the specification for the ICQ curves - just 
> like ICC is a standard today.  Perhaps they could license the ICQ 
> spec to other ink and paper vendors to allow the entire industry to 
> innovate and in fact expand on the sales of the Piezo software.  
> This also lets the market determine which inksets and papers rise 
to 
> the top - and if Piezo gives the best results, the market is quite 
> capable of determining that.  There are many historical examples of 
> restricted market share resulting from not opening up to standards.
> 
> I think opening up the Piezo software would actually increase sales 
> and expand the market for Cone.
> 
> Regards,
> Steve Dolha
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
> <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> > IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given all 
> the variables out there...it is important to have a system 
> (paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and Piezography 
> System works very well for most people (me included)...if you let 
> people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for 
> instance...or someone elses cheap ink)  then you would open up a 
can 
> of worms...and potential for customers to complain and 
> complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most expensive 
> part of the equation?) as causing the problem.  
> > 
> > I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported and 
> profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way 
to 
> go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what I 
> would do too. 
> > 
> > Steadman
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: Julian Thomas 
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
> >   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
> > 
> > 
> >   Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength of 
> the cone
> >   system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical 
prints 
> at a
> >   fraction of the cost.  Whether I'll buy the complete kit 
> though ... maybe
> >   Cone will sell just the software?
> > 
> >   Julian
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: <toomagenta@a...>
> >   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> >   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
> > 
> > 
> >   > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard 
Time,
> >   > julianthomas@t... writes:
> >   >
> >   > << My next purchases will be a
> >   >  better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and 
> FS inks. >>
> >   > Are you considering the Cone software?
> >   > George J Kunze
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, 
> Polls and
> >   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >   >
> >   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >   >
> >   > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >   > - Include your full name with your message.
> >   > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >   > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages to keep
> >   them short.
> >   > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
> subject header.
> >   > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
> or "flames."
> >   > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >   > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
> the various
> >   resources on the homepage.
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> > 
> > 
> >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> >               ADVERTISEMENT
> >              
> >        
> >        
> > 
> >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
> is at:
> > 
> >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> or "flames."
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the 

> various resources on the homepage. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> Service. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
...BTW FS really is pretty close to ppiezo inks, slightly cooler, and 
you need to do a slight curve action to reduce contrast on files done 
for piezo inks, but once you have the monitor working space set up it 
is plug n play."

Actually from testing done by a number of well placed experts (sound 
like a political spin) the MIS FS inks print with a 1 stop density 
loss using the Piezo Driver and a 1-1/2 stop loss in contrast.

This should be easily fixable either in the ink formulation or as you 
suggest in using an adjustment curve.

When working on new files I find this to not be an issue. But when 
printing old files that were created for Piezo, the density loss 
becomes evident so I have to create a second file to print with the 
MIS FS inks.

A commercial RIP that has ICC/ICM profiles for papers and inks should 
take away this problem. That is the biggest difference between a 
professional RIP and the Piezo system. With the Piezography system 
you are dependent on IJM to profile your papers and provide you with 
the profiles. On an open RIP, you can have almost any profiling 
service profile your inks and papers as printed on YOUR printer and 
get accurate profiles.

The plug and play aspect of the Piezo system is really very 
convenient and a big plus. Right now the Pro version of the Piezo RIP 
had new profiles for almost everyone of the newest papers on the 
market. I suspect that Cone will make them available for the Pulg-In 
versions of the software very shortly.

Mike

That is pretty much my point....

Open teh system and let people profile their inks and papers and 
share the info...this would make the system much more valuable IMO.

So with that in mind, I have received a demo of the ImagePrint 4.0 
Software which does exactly that. In fact, the developer will 
initially profile paper/ink combinations should you request them. 

Mike

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., flacita33@h... wrote:
> I agree. I think that most of those who would opt for just the 
Piezo 
> software in all likelihood would not be going into the situation 
> blind. They would understand that the software is optimized to work 
> with the Piezo system as whole. This point could also be made clear 
> in marketing the software. Perhaps the "turnkey solution" is the 
way 
> to go, but why not offer a choice? The only reason I see for hard-
> bundling the software with ink, etc. is to enforce consumption of 
> propriatory consumables. This may turn out to be a strategy with 
> diminishing returns.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., spdolha@c... wrote:
> > That's like saying that people complain to Adobe about results 
with 
> > different colour inks and papers when using Photoshop with ICC 
> > profiles - not likely.  Customers only complain when a vendor's 
> > technical support can not give clear solutions to problems or 
point 
> > people at the reasons for the problems.
> > 
> > My feeling is that the Piezo software could become an industry 
> > standard by releasing the specification for the ICQ curves - just 
> > like ICC is a standard today.  Perhaps they could license the ICQ 
> > spec to other ink and paper vendors to allow the entire industry 
to 
> > innovate and in fact expand on the sales of the Piezo software.  
> > This also lets the market determine which inksets and papers rise 
> to 
> > the top - and if Piezo gives the best results, the market is 
quite 
> > capable of determining that.  There are many historical examples 
of 
> > restricted market share resulting from not opening up to 
standards.
> > 
> > I think opening up the Piezo software would actually increase 
sales 
> > and expand the market for Cone.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Steve Dolha
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
> > <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> > > IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given 
all 
> > the variables out there...it is important to have a system 
> > (paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and Piezography 
> > System works very well for most people (me included)...if you let 
> > people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for 
> > instance...or someone elses cheap ink)  then you would open up a 
> can 
> > of worms...and potential for customers to complain and 
> > complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most 
expensive 
> > part of the equation?) as causing the problem.  
> > > 
> > > I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported 
and 
> > profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way 
> to 
> > go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what I 
> > would do too. 
> > > 
> > > Steadman
> > >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >   From: Julian Thomas 
> > >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
> > >   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
> > >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength 
of 
> > the cone
> > >   system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical 
> prints 
> > at a
> > >   fraction of the cost.  Whether I'll buy the complete kit 
> > though ... maybe
> > >   Cone will sell just the software?
> > > 
> > >   Julian
> > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > >   From: <toomagenta@a...>
> > >   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > >   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
> > >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard 
> Time,
> > >   > julianthomas@t... writes:
> > >   >
> > >   > << My next purchases will be a
> > >   >  better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP 
and 
> > FS inks. >>
> > >   > Are you considering the Cone software?
> > >   > George J Kunze
> > >   >
> > >   >
> > >   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
> Bookmarks, 
> > Polls and
> > >   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
at:
> > >   >
> > >   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >   >
> > >   > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > >   > - Include your full name with your message.
> > >   > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > >   > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> > messages to keep
> > >   them short.
> > >   > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
> > subject header.
> > >   > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal 
attacks 
> > or "flames."
> > >   > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > >   > - Before posting a question, search the message archives 
and 
> > the various
> > >   resources on the homepage.
> > >   >
> > >   >
> > >   >
> > >   >
> > >   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >   >
> > >   >
> > >   >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> > >               ADVERTISEMENT
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> > >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, 
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page 

> > is at:
> > > 
> > >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > 
> > >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> > or "flames."
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> > >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
> the 
> > various resources on the homepage. 
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> > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> > Service. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julian Thomas <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
>...BTW FS really is pretty close to Piezo inks, slightly cooler, and
>you need to do a slight curve action to reduce contrast on files done
>for Piezo inks, but once you have the monitor working space set up it
>is plug n play."


Mike Kravit <mkravit@...> wrote:
>Actually ...the MIS FS inks print with a 1 stop density
>loss using the Piezo Driver and a 1-1/2 stop loss in contrast.

I've asked a couple a people to send me scans of 21-step test prints using
FS inks.  This may be the issue that I'm looking at right now.  What I've
found is that the density of the Piezo inks varies.  The FS inks match the
densities of many who used Piezo in a CIS -- like I used to.  However, my
experience is that Piezo out of a new cartridge that I've filled is darker.
That is, the CIS had the effect of reducing the densities of the two
lightest inks relative to the carts.  The CIS Piezo was always more green
also.

So, to finalize my neutral mix for the Piezo driver, I want to be sure that
I'm optimizing it for that driver.  I'm not sure the FS inks quite hit the
mark.

Bottom line, could some FS-Piezo driver users please e-mail to me scans of
some 21-step test files.  (8-bit, 72 dpi, jpeg level 8 or above)  I have a
density target that seems to work better than FS in my 1160-Piezo outfit,
but I would like to see if other FS users are getting the same steps I see.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Steve,

I actually disagree - having worked in support I have a little experience
with the c**p that some departments have to put up with, and equally, also
being a user, I'm familiar with what some of them put out ;)  [I'm not
talking about IJM here, by the way, my last awful-support experience was
McAffee].

Here's my example: Take a look at the Epson-leben list, or the Epson 9000
Yahoo group. Two groups which I browse and occasionally post on. There is
FREQUENT discussion, confusion, dissatisfaction, anger, frustration about
colour management with those 'oh-so-simple' ICC profiles. The problem seems
to be that Adobe do not _exactly_ describe how Photoshop (for example) sends
out files (to a printer) depending on settings. Epson do not exactly
describe how it picks up profiles depending on printer / printer driver /
which buttons are clicked, etc etc etc. ie ICC is VERY MUCH implementation
dependent and frankly a nightmare as such. ANY support department in this
environment has to ask a zillion questions to find out where the problem
lies, but let's face it, Adobe tech support probably has very little
interest in helping Epson to fix a driver problem, and vice versa. A
standard complaint is "It's funny how the problem is never the fault of the
person you're talking to".

And what are we now seeing? Well, as far as I can tell we are seeing, or
about to see, a whole tranche of RIPs or RIP-like products that are going to
enable you to isolate the colour management of printing with ICC from
Windows installs of new products, odd-sounding buttons on Epson printer
driver software, etc. If I am right, we will see alot less colour management
problems caused by installations that <oops> wiped out your favourite
profile, but we will CONTINUE to see problems by chnges in ink, paper
formulations, quality of profiles, quality of printer, degraded printers due
to 'natural' maintenance requirements, etc.

I fear that if Cone were to open up the ICQ profiles, we sure would get more
papers and inks supported, and that would be fantastic - BUT we would also
find a new job-description in the sigs on this list "Greyscale Management
Consultant" - the people who could examine and test (potentially) everything
in the chain from software output to profiles to ink densities and advise
you and fix your problems. Without that person, IJM would blame the
third-party ink or ICQ supplier, the ink m'fer would blame the ICQ supplier
or Piezo software, etc etc etc

In fact, we culd say that this group is a "Greyscale Management Group",
but...

FWIW, I do agree that opening things up could result in higher sales or
whatever for software, and I do believe that would be good. But it is only
good if you can somehow work it such that the resultant problems do not
happen. I don't believe anyone can do that, so in the mean-time, I am happy
to be one person telling my supplier that there is 'demand' for cheaper ink,
'demand' for toning products, 'demand' for a profile for 'xxx' paper and so
on. In the mean-time, some manufacturers can if they wish reverse engineer
ink tones to make their own ink... and the Piezo driver has even been used
by people using Spectratone inks etc (don't know how well that would work in
through testing, but I was sent  a very nice picture using this mix).

Apologies for the long post!

Best,
Nij

> From: spdolha@... [mailto:spdolha@...]
> That's like saying that people complain to Adobe about results with
> different colour inks and papers when using Photoshop with ICC
> profiles - not likely.  Customers only complain when a vendor's
> technical support can not give clear solutions to problems or point
> people at the reasons for the problems.
>
> My feeling is that the Piezo software could become an industry
> standard by releasing the specification for the ICQ curves - just
> like ICC is a standard today.  Perhaps they could license the ICQ
> spec to other ink and paper vendors to allow the entire industry to
> innovate and in fact expand on the sales of the Piezo software.
> This also lets the market determine which inksets and papers rise to
> the top - and if Piezo gives the best results, the market is quite
> capable of determining that.  There are many historical examples of
> restricted market share resulting from not opening up to standards.
>
> I think opening up the Piezo software would actually increase sales
> and expand the market for Cone.
>
> Regards,
> Steve Dolha
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich"
> <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> > IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given all
> the variables out there...it is important to have a system
> (paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and Piezography
> System works very well for most people (me included)...if you let
> people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for
> instance...or someone elses cheap ink)  then you would open up a can
> of worms...and potential for customers to complain and
> complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most expensive
> part of the equation?) as causing the problem.
> >
> > I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported and
> profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way to
> go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what I
> would do too.

Paul did my wedge steps get through?

Julian

Where would a person get a copy of this ImagePrint 4.0 demo?



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" 
<mkravit@k...> wrote:
> That is pretty much my point....
> 
> Open teh system and let people profile their inks and papers and 
> share the info...this would make the system much more valuable IMO.
> 
> So with that in mind, I have received a demo of the ImagePrint 4.0 
> Software which does exactly that. In fact, the developer will 
> initially profile paper/ink combinations should you request them. 
> 
> Mike
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., flacita33@h... wrote:
> > I agree. I think that most of those who would opt for just the 
> Piezo 
> > software in all likelihood would not be going into the situation 
> > blind. They would understand that the software is optimized to 
work 
> > with the Piezo system as whole. This point could also be made 
clear 
> > in marketing the software. Perhaps the "turnkey solution" is the 
> way 
> > to go, but why not offer a choice? The only reason I see for hard-
> > bundling the software with ink, etc. is to enforce consumption of 
> > propriatory consumables. This may turn out to be a strategy with 
> > diminishing returns.
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., spdolha@c... wrote:
> > > That's like saying that people complain to Adobe about results 
> with 
> > > different colour inks and papers when using Photoshop with ICC 
> > > profiles - not likely.  Customers only complain when a vendor's 
> > > technical support can not give clear solutions to problems or 
> point 
> > > people at the reasons for the problems.
> > > 
> > > My feeling is that the Piezo software could become an industry 
> > > standard by releasing the specification for the ICQ curves - 
just 
> > > like ICC is a standard today.  Perhaps they could license the 
ICQ 
> > > spec to other ink and paper vendors to allow the entire 
industry 
> to 
> > > innovate and in fact expand on the sales of the Piezo 
software.  
> > > This also lets the market determine which inksets and papers 
rise 
> > to 
> > > the top - and if Piezo gives the best results, the market is 
> quite 
> > > capable of determining that.  There are many historical 
examples 
> of 
> > > restricted market share resulting from not opening up to 
> standards.
> > > 
> > > I think opening up the Piezo software would actually increase 
> sales 
> > > and expand the market for Cone.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Steve Dolha
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
> > > <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> > > > IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given 
> all 
> > > the variables out there...it is important to have a system 
> > > (paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and 
Piezography 
> > > System works very well for most people (me included)...if you 
let 
> > > people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for 
> > > instance...or someone elses cheap ink)  then you would open up 
a 
> > can 
> > > of worms...and potential for customers to complain and 
> > > complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most 
> expensive 
> > > part of the equation?) as causing the problem.  
> > > > 
> > > > I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported 
> and 
> > > profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart 
way 
> > to 
> > > go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what 
I 
> > > would do too. 
> > > > 
> > > > Steadman
> > > >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > >   From: Julian Thomas 
> > > >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
> > > >   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
> > > >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >   Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength 
> of 
> > > the cone
> > > >   system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical 
> > prints 
> > > at a
> > > >   fraction of the cost.  Whether I'll buy the complete kit 
> > > though ... maybe
> > > >   Cone will sell just the software?
> > > > 
> > > >   Julian
> > > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > > >   From: <toomagenta@a...>
> > > >   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > > >   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
> > > >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >   > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard 
> > Time,
> > > >   > julianthomas@t... writes:
> > > >   >
> > > >   > << My next purchases will be a
> > > >   >  better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP 
> and 
> > > FS inks. >>
> > > >   > Are you considering the Cone software?
> > > >   > George J Kunze
> > > >   >
> > > >   >
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> > > >   other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is 
> at:
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