Digital BW, The Print

Michael...

You mention below that  "you can have almost any profiling 
service profile your inks and papers as printed on YOUR printer ..." 

Yep you could. But at what expense?  

Consider that Piezo software comes with professionally made profiles for about 30 papers or so.  

How much would that cost if done separately or through a profiling service?  

Venture to guess? 

And are they Grayscale profiles for quadtones or profiles for color inks? 

And what about the hassles of printing the targets and sending them to the profiling service and the time and expense of actually shipping them and the time wasted waiting for them to return...etc...

And what about low cost future additions to the profile list?  How much would that cost from the hypothetical profiling service?  

I think the profiles included with the Piezo system are the best bargain on the market for accurate and working and effective printing...assuming you want professional results.  

Of course someone may want to do their own profiles and buy their own software and other hardware tools needed to do so.  I sure don't.  I don't have the time. 

I like the fact that the profiles for Piezo are so....easy...and relatively cheap.   Yup...easy, inexpensive, effective,  and they "came in the box."  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael J. Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 1:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


  "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
  ...BTW FS really is pretty close to ppiezo inks, slightly cooler, and 
  you need to do a slight curve action to reduce contrast on files done 
  for piezo inks, but once you have the monitor working space set up it 
  is plug n play."

  Actually from testing done by a number of well placed experts (sound 
  like a political spin) the MIS FS inks print with a 1 stop density 
  loss using the Piezo Driver and a 1-1/2 stop loss in contrast.

  This should be easily fixable either in the ink formulation or as you 
  suggest in using an adjustment curve.

  When working on new files I find this to not be an issue. But when 
  printing old files that were created for Piezo, the density loss 
  becomes evident so I have to create a second file to print with the 
  MIS FS inks.

  A commercial RIP that has ICC/ICM profiles for papers and inks should 
  take away this problem. That is the biggest difference between a 
  professional RIP and the Piezo system. With the Piezography system 
  you are dependent on IJM to profile your papers and provide you with 
  the profiles. On an open RIP, you can have almost any profiling 
  service profile your inks and papers as printed on YOUR printer and 
  get accurate profiles.

  The plug and play aspect of the Piezo system is really very 
  convenient and a big plus. Right now the Pro version of the Piezo RIP 
  had new profiles for almost everyone of the newest papers on the 
  market. I suspect that Cone will make them available for the Pulg-In 
  versions of the software very shortly.

  Mike


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman,

Actually I don't believe you can order a grayscale printer profile 
from a color management company. (If I am wrong, someone please let 
me know where.) As always B&W is more difficult. If is not just a 
profile you need but the separation curves are necessary to get the 
right inks into the right tonal ranges.

It is my understanding that none of the current profiling software 
packages will create a usable printer profile for a grayscale ink 
set. Profiler Pro will create a monitor profile of a grayscale ink 
set but not a useable profile.

Another point. You can buy just the Piezo software. Just order a 
Piezo kit for an 1160, toss the cartridges, if you are not interested 
in the Piezo ink, and use the printer and inks of your choice. It is 
still one of the best bargains around and well worth the price. A 
good monitor calibration package will cost you $200 to $400. I don't 
see a big deal in paying $335 to get into Piezo.

I am very happy that there are now alternative inks to go with this 
driver. That just broadens the choices for the end users which is 
best for all concerned.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> Michael...
> 
> You mention below that  "you can have almost any profiling 
> service profile your inks and papers as printed on YOUR 
printer ..." 
> 
> Yep you could. But at what expense?  
> 
> Consider that Piezo software comes with professionally made 
profiles for about 30 papers or so.  
> 
> How much would that cost if done separately or through a profiling 
service?  
> 
> Venture to guess? 
> 
> And are they Grayscale profiles for quadtones or profiles for color 
inks? 
> 
> And what about the hassles of printing the targets and sending them 
to the profiling service and the time and expense of actually 
shipping them and the time wasted waiting for them to return...etc...
> 
> And what about low cost future additions to the profile list?  How 
much would that cost from the hypothetical profiling service?  
> 
> I think the profiles included with the Piezo system are the best 
bargain on the market for accurate and working and effective 
printing...assuming you want professional results.  
> 
> Of course someone may want to do their own profiles and buy their 
own software and other hardware tools needed to do so.  I sure 
don't.  I don't have the time. 
> 
> I like the fact that the profiles for Piezo are so....easy...and 
relatively cheap.   Yup...easy, inexpensive, effective,  and 
they "came in the box."  
> 
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Michael J. Kravit 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 1:50 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
> 
> 
>   "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
>   ...BTW FS really is pretty close to ppiezo inks, slightly cooler, 
and 
>   you need to do a slight curve action to reduce contrast on files 
done 
>   for piezo inks, but once you have the monitor working space set 
up it 
>   is plug n play."
> 
>   Actually from testing done by a number of well placed experts 
(sound 
>   like a political spin) the MIS FS inks print with a 1 stop 
density 
>   loss using the Piezo Driver and a 1-1/2 stop loss in contrast.
> 
>   This should be easily fixable either in the ink formulation or as 
you 
>   suggest in using an adjustment curve.
> 
>   When working on new files I find this to not be an issue. But 
when 
>   printing old files that were created for Piezo, the density loss 
>   becomes evident so I have to create a second file to print with 
the 
>   MIS FS inks.
> 
>   A commercial RIP that has ICC/ICM profiles for papers and inks 
should 
>   take away this problem. That is the biggest difference between a 
>   professional RIP and the Piezo system. With the Piezography 
system 
>   you are dependent on IJM to profile your papers and provide you 
with 
>   the profiles. On an open RIP, you can have almost any profiling 
>   service profile your inks and papers as printed on YOUR printer 
and 
>   get accurate profiles.
> 
>   The plug and play aspect of the Piezo system is really very 
>   convenient and a big plus. Right now the Pro version of the Piezo 
RIP 
>   had new profiles for almost everyone of the newest papers on the 
>   market. I suspect that Cone will make them available for the Pulg-
In 
>   versions of the software very shortly.
> 
>   Mike
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman,

Of course not being argumantative, I would like to explain to you 
that Professional RIP's that cost in the same range as the Piezo RIP 
in many cases come with a huge number of canned profiles just as 
Piezo does.

For example, the ImagePrint 4.0 software comes with over 30 ink/paper 
combinations and is growing every day.

You are correct that Profiling can cost around $100 / paper/ink 
combination. If you use 30 papers that can become expensive. BUT, 
assuming that at any one time you will be using 4-5 papers, I really 
don't see this as a major problem. Not for the professional, and 
these RIP's are geared toward the professional.

The point being, when a new paper comes out and we want it, we must 
wait for IJM to profile it and publish it. If they were to use ICC 
profiles instead of their proprietary ICQ profiles, you could have a 
profile within a day or two at a reasonable cost.

Believe me, I am a big fan of the Piezography software. We are not 
debating the merits of Piezo vs. Wausatch vs. Best, vs. Image Print 
4.0. I am only suggesting that a bit of flexibility would be a 
positive for the professional user and IJM atthe same time.

Have you ever seen the layout options afforded by the professional 
RIP's? In reading the ImagePrint brochure for example, you can use 
their RIP to print Quadtone images and RGB images on different 
printers at the same time. That is flexability!  If there is an 
inkset that comes out, you just profile it and the RIP will handle 
it. That is flexibility.

In the world of digital photography, things change so fast, that 
flexibility comes in very handy.

Mike