Digital BW, The Print

Yesterday I read a message on this forum (I forget in what context, 
or by whom) that suggested the 4000 was weaker in black density than 
the 7600 class printers.  It just so happened that I was helping a 
friend write QTR profiles on various papers for his 7600 loaded with 
OEM UC inks.  I own a 4000 also loaded with OEM inks.

The bottom line:  The 4000 and 7600 (presumambly 9600 also) are for 
all intents identical in the DMax achieved with OEM Matte Black inks.

The test was conducted with good ol' EEM paper.  I used a Heiland 
Electronics PM-Densitomemter in reflective mode.  On EEM both 
printers were hitting ~1.67 DMax.

One important difference between my 4000 and my friend's 7600 is the 
ink limit at which the maximum DMax was achieved.  The 4000 maxed out 
at ~70% black density, while the 7600 maxed out at ~50% black 
density.  It takes a RIP to properly characterize the appropriate ink 
limit for each color.  I used QTR for my test.

There are valid reasons for choosing a 7600 (9600) over a 4000, but 
DMax is NOT one of them.

Happy printing.

Shilesh

Shilesh,

I also own a 4000.  I agree that with QTR, you can achieve a great 
Dmax, and mine also hits Dmax at about 65-70% on EEM.  No problem 
there.

Using the Epson driver however, there is a problem getting good Dmax 
out of the 4000 for color or B&W on matte papers.  At least on my 
4000, the Epson driver seems to impose premature ink limits, 
regardless of which matte paper setting I use.  I tried them all, and 
I find that blacks are a bit weak compared to using the Epson driver 
with my 2200.  All targets were read with a spectrophotometer.  I 
think the reference to weak blacks was when using the Epson driver 
with MIS quad inksets and matte papers.  I'd have to agree based on 
my tests thus far.  

On glossy papers, though, I find the Epson driver on the 4000 
delivers great Dmax, (B&W and Color), which is even better than my 
2200, which was very good.  I'm sure this has to do with the ink 
limiting built into the various Epson driver settings.  I wish I 
could figure out how to get the Epson driver to pump out a little 
more ink with the various matte paper settings.

So, unless I can find a way around this driver/matte paper setting 
limitation, I believe I will need a B&W or Color RIP solution to get 
the most from matte papers using the 4000.

Maybe others find this doesn't agree with their experience.  If so, I 
would love to know what you may be doing differently.  

Regards,

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:
> 
> Yesterday I read a message on this forum (I forget in what context, 
> or by whom) that suggested the 4000 was weaker in black density 
than 
> the 7600 class printers.  It just so happened that I was helping a 
> friend write QTR profiles on various papers for his 7600 loaded 
with 
> OEM UC inks.  I own a 4000 also loaded with OEM inks.
> 
> The bottom line:  The 4000 and 7600 (presumambly 9600 also) are for 
> all intents identical in the DMax achieved with OEM Matte Black 
inks.
> 
> The test was conducted with good ol' EEM paper.  I used a Heiland 
> Electronics PM-Densitomemter in reflective mode.  On EEM both 
> printers were hitting ~1.67 DMax.
> 
> One important difference between my 4000 and my friend's 7600 is 
the 
> ink limit at which the maximum DMax was achieved.  The 4000 maxed 
out 
> at ~70% black density, while the 7600 maxed out at ~50% black 
> density.  It takes a RIP to properly characterize the appropriate 
ink 

> limit for each color.  I used QTR for my test.
> 
> There are valid reasons for choosing a 7600 (9600) over a 4000, but 
> DMax is NOT one of them.
> 
> Happy printing.
> 
> Shilesh

Louis,

I just tested out printing with the Epson driver.  Lo and behold, 
you're absolutely right.  Using various approaches, I am hitting a 
Dmax od only ~1.56 on EEM.  What gives?

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Dina" 
<lbdina@c...> wrote:
> 
> Shilesh,
> 
> I also own a 4000.  I agree that with QTR, you can achieve a great 
> Dmax, and mine also hits Dmax at about 65-70% on EEM.  No problem 
> there.
> 
> Using the Epson driver however, there is a problem getting good 
Dmax 
> out of the 4000 for color or B&W on matte papers.  At least on my 
> 4000, the Epson driver seems to impose premature ink limits, 
> regardless of which matte paper setting I use.  I tried them all, 
and 
> I find that blacks are a bit weak compared to using the Epson 
driver 
> with my 2200.  All targets were read with a spectrophotometer.  I 
> think the reference to weak blacks was when using the Epson driver 
> with MIS quad inksets and matte papers.  I'd have to agree based on 
> my tests thus far.  
> 
> On glossy papers, though, I find the Epson driver on the 4000 
> delivers great Dmax, (B&W and Color), which is even better than my 
> 2200, which was very good.  I'm sure this has to do with the ink 
> limiting built into the various Epson driver settings.  I wish I 
> could figure out how to get the Epson driver to pump out a little 
> more ink with the various matte paper settings.
> 
> So, unless I can find a way around this driver/matte paper setting 
> limitation, I believe I will need a B&W or Color RIP solution to 
get 
> the most from matte papers using the 4000.
> 
> Maybe others find this doesn't agree with their experience.  If so, 
I 
> would love to know what you may be doing differently.  
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Lou
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
> <shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > Yesterday I read a message on this forum (I forget in what 
context, 
> > or by whom) that suggested the 4000 was weaker in black density 
> than 
> > the 7600 class printers.  It just so happened that I was helping 
a 
> > friend write QTR profiles on various papers for his 7600 loaded 
> with 
> > OEM UC inks.  I own a 4000 also loaded with OEM inks.
> > 
> > The bottom line:  The 4000 and 7600 (presumambly 9600 also) are 
for 
> > all intents identical in the DMax achieved with OEM Matte Black 
> inks.
> > 
> > The test was conducted with good ol' EEM paper.  I used a Heiland 
> > Electronics PM-Densitomemter in reflective mode.  On EEM both 
> > printers were hitting ~1.67 DMax.
> > 
> > One important difference between my 4000 and my friend's 7600 is 
> the 
> > ink limit at which the maximum DMax was achieved.  The 4000 maxed 
> out 
> > at ~70% black density, while the 7600 maxed out at ~50% black 
> > density.  It takes a RIP to properly characterize the appropriate 
> ink 
> > limit for each color.  I used QTR for my test.
> > 
> > There are valid reasons for choosing a 7600 (9600) over a 4000, 
but 

> > DMax is NOT one of them.
> > 
> > Happy printing.
> > 
> > Shilesh

Shilesh....

What's Up?  IMO, Epson has their head planted firmly up their kazoo.  I 
have tried to get help, but they are worse than useless.  Epson builds 
their ink limits into the driver's paper settings, and for whatever 
reason, they set the ink limits too low on the matte paper settings in 
their driver.  From what I can tell, all the matte choices are all on 
the low side.  The glossy settings work fine and give great Dmax on my 
printer.

The printer can spit out enough ink, as proven when printing an ink 
limit chart from QTR, but the settings Epson programmed into driver are 
the limitation.  So, if I want better Dmax and gamut on matte papers 
using color inks, that means I have to spend more money for a RIP that 
can control ink limits (ie, NOT ImagePrint, since it hard codes ink 
limits into the inkset.  Perhaps the full verson of ColorBurst - not 
the Epson version, or StudioPrint).  

Paul Roark suggested another possible workaround, but I haven't tried 
it.  Put Eboni black ink into a refilliable PK cartridge and put it 
into the PK slot of the printer.  Then, tell the printer you are 
printing on glossy stock and use a glossy paper setting.  Not sure if 
this will work or not.  The 4000 has more sensors than Carter has 
pills, and it may be able to sense the paper type.  Not sure about that 
either.  

My 2200 gets better Dmax on matte paper with the Epson driver than my 
4000 does.  But, the 4000 does better on glossy papers than the 2200.

How about sending an email to Epson asking for an update to the driver 
that allows more ink to the matte papers?  I'll do the same.

Lou


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:

> 
> Louis,
> 
> I just tested out printing with the Epson driver.  Lo and behold, 
> you're absolutely right.  Using various approaches, I am hitting a 
> Dmax od only ~1.56 on EEM.  What gives?
> 
> Shilesh

Hi Lou,

I'm curious if you've ever check the Dmax of a b.o. print from your 
4000.

(I know you use IJC and would like to thank you for writing that 
tutorial. When I purchase my next printer, I'll probably go with IJC.
Thanks Lou.)

Scott



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Dina" 
<lbdina@c...> wrote:
> 
> Shilesh,
> 
> I also own a 4000.  I agree that with QTR, you can achieve a great 
> Dmax, and mine also hits Dmax at about 65-70% on EEM.  No problem 
> there.
> 
> Using the Epson driver however, there is a problem getting good 
Dmax 
> out of the 4000 for color or B&W on matte papers.  At least on my 
> 4000, the Epson driver seems to impose premature ink limits, 
> regardless of which matte paper setting I use.  I tried them all, 
and 
> I find that blacks are a bit weak compared to using the Epson 
driver 
> with my 2200.  All targets were read with a spectrophotometer.  I 
> think the reference to weak blacks was when using the Epson driver 
> with MIS quad inksets and matte papers.  I'd have to agree based on 
> my tests thus far.  
> 
> On glossy papers, though, I find the Epson driver on the 4000 
> delivers great Dmax, (B&W and Color), which is even better than my 
> 2200, which was very good.  I'm sure this has to do with the ink 
> limiting built into the various Epson driver settings.  I wish I 
> could figure out how to get the Epson driver to pump out a little 
> more ink with the various matte paper settings.
> 
> So, unless I can find a way around this driver/matte paper setting 
> limitation, I believe I will need a B&W or Color RIP solution to 
get 
> the most from matte papers using the 4000.
> 
> Maybe others find this doesn't agree with their experience.  If so, 
I 
> would love to know what you may be doing differently.  
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Lou
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
> <shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > Yesterday I read a message on this forum (I forget in what 
context, 
> > or by whom) that suggested the 4000 was weaker in black density 
> than 
> > the 7600 class printers.  It just so happened that I was helping 
a 
> > friend write QTR profiles on various papers for his 7600 loaded 
> with 
> > OEM UC inks.  I own a 4000 also loaded with OEM inks.
> > 
> > The bottom line:  The 4000 and 7600 (presumambly 9600 also) are 
for 
> > all intents identical in the DMax achieved with OEM Matte Black 
> inks.
> > 
> > The test was conducted with good ol' EEM paper.  I used a Heiland 
> > Electronics PM-Densitomemter in reflective mode.  On EEM both 
> > printers were hitting ~1.67 DMax.
> > 
> > One important difference between my 4000 and my friend's 7600 is 
> the 
> > ink limit at which the maximum DMax was achieved.  The 4000 maxed 
> out 
> > at ~70% black density, while the 7600 maxed out at ~50% black 
> > density.  It takes a RIP to properly characterize the appropriate 
> ink 
> > limit for each color.  I used QTR for my test.
> > 
> > There are valid reasons for choosing a 7600 (9600) over a 4000, 
but 

> > DMax is NOT one of them.
> > 
> > Happy printing.
> > 
> > Shilesh