Digital BW, The Print

I finally got a densitometer and am in the process of creating my 
first paper curve for Epson Heavyweight Matte paper(Neutral curve) 
and MIS UT2 inks and an Epson 1280 printer. 

I have charecterized the inks and found the black maxed out at 60% 
ink when printed at 100% ink in the first pass. I am now at the stage 
of just after printing the second calibration chart at that 60% and 
have read the ink densities of each ink position. The results are:

K=1.56
C=1.13
M=1.09
Y=not used
LC=.96
LM=.97

From the help file "This process is repeated for each lighter ink, 
comparing it to the next darker ink, calculating its density relative 
to that ink and then converting it to a density relative to the 
darkest ink. Record these values in the appropriate ink density box." 

This is where my logic fails me. In the curve creator how do I 
determine what density percentages to enter? I know there are many 
who have created these curves, so could someone fill in the missing 
information for me after telling me the method of determining the 
density percentages? I would really appreciate all help from soneone 
who has surmounted this step. 

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

Johnny,

It took me a while to figure out the madness.  Using your C=1.13 as 
an example:  Go to the 21 steps of the black ink, and find which step 
gives you d=1.13.  You may not find an exact match; you may find that 
on the black ink steps X%=1.00 and X+5% is 1.2.  That means the true 
value is somewhete in between.  Using the above as an example, it is 
closer to x+5%, so I would type in X+4% as a SWAG.  It does not have 
to be absolutely accurate.  You will be linearizing the whole mess 
later on anyway.  This step just determines the amount and location 
of overlap of adjacent density inks.

Hope this helps.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@s...> wrote:
> 
> I finally got a densitometer and am in the process of creating my 
> first paper curve for Epson Heavyweight Matte paper(Neutral curve) 
> and MIS UT2 inks and an Epson 1280 printer. 
> 
> I have charecterized the inks and found the black maxed out at 60% 
> ink when printed at 100% ink in the first pass. I am now at the 
stage 
> of just after printing the second calibration chart at that 60% and 
> have read the ink densities of each ink position. The results are:
> 
> K=1.56
> C=1.13
> M=1.09
> Y=not used
> LC=.96
> LM=.97
> 
> From the help file "This process is repeated for each lighter ink, 
> comparing it to the next darker ink, calculating its density 
relative 
> to that ink and then converting it to a density relative to the 
> darkest ink. Record these values in the appropriate ink density 
box." 
> 
> This is where my logic fails me. In the curve creator how do I 
> determine what density percentages to enter? I know there are many 
> who have created these curves, so could someone fill in the missing 
> information for me after telling me the method of determining the 
> density percentages? I would really appreciate all help from 
soneone 

> who has surmounted this step. 
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny

Thanks Shilesh,

I had partly thought this would be the procedure but the more that I 
thought the more confused I got. I gues that is part of the reason 
for this newsgroup. Group help...

Thanks again,

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:
> 
> Johnny,
> 
> It took me a while to figure out the madness.  Using your C=1.13 as 
> an example:  Go to the 21 steps of the black ink, and find which 
step 
> gives you d=1.13.  You may not find an exact match; you may find 
that 
> on the black ink steps X%=1.00 and X+5% is 1.2.  That means the 
true 
> value is somewhete in between.  Using the above as an example, it 
is 
> closer to x+5%, so I would type in X+4% as a SWAG.  It does not 
have 
> to be absolutely accurate.  You will be linearizing the whole mess 
> later on anyway.  This step just determines the amount and location 
> of overlap of adjacent density inks.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
> <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > I finally got a densitometer and am in the process of creating my 
> > first paper curve for Epson Heavyweight Matte paper(Neutral 
curve) 
> > and MIS UT2 inks and an Epson 1280 printer. 
> > 
> > I have charecterized the inks and found the black maxed out at 
60% 
> > ink when printed at 100% ink in the first pass. I am now at the 
> stage 
> > of just after printing the second calibration chart at that 60% 
and 
> > have read the ink densities of each ink position. The results are:
> > 
> > K=1.56
> > C=1.13
> > M=1.09
> > Y=not used
> > LC=.96
> > LM=.97
> > 
> > From the help file "This process is repeated for each lighter 
ink, 
> > comparing it to the next darker ink, calculating its density 
> relative 
> > to that ink and then converting it to a density relative to the 
> > darkest ink. Record these values in the appropriate ink density 
> box." 
> > 
> > This is where my logic fails me. In the curve creator how do I 
> > determine what density percentages to enter? I know there are 
many 
> > who have created these curves, so could someone fill in the 
missing 

> > information for me after telling me the method of determining the 
> > density percentages? I would really appreciate all help from 
> soneone 
> > who has surmounted this step. 
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny

The numbers are written on the inkseparation image. If 100% M has the 
same density as 43% K then the number for M is 43. In other words you 
move up or down the K scale until you find a patch that matches the 
density of 100% of the ink you're working with. That K percentage is 
your value. Repeat for the other inks.

Like with the ink limits there is plenty room for error here. An 
approximate guess is enough. The linearization will take care of any 
remaining problems.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no


Johnny Eades wrote:

> 
> I finally got a densitometer and am in the process of creating my 
> first paper curve for Epson Heavyweight Matte paper(Neutral curve) 
> and MIS UT2 inks and an Epson 1280 printer. 
> 
> I have charecterized the inks and found the black maxed out at 60% 
> ink when printed at 100% ink in the first pass. I am now at the stage 
> of just after printing the second calibration chart at that 60% and 
> have read the ink densities of each ink position. The results are:
> 
> K=1.56
> C=1.13
> M=1.09
> Y=not used
> LC=.96
> LM=.97
> 
>>From the help file "This process is repeated for each lighter ink, 
> comparing it to the next darker ink, calculating its density relative 
> to that ink and then converting it to a density relative to the 
> darkest ink. Record these values in the appropriate ink density box." 
> 
> This is where my logic fails me. In the curve creator how do I 
> determine what density percentages to enter? I know there are many 
> who have created these curves, so could someone fill in the missing 
> information for me after telling me the method of determining the 
> density percentages? I would really appreciate all help from soneone 
> who has surmounted this step. 
> 
> Your friend in Photography,

Daniel,

Now I am a little confused.  I am using the UC inkset in a 2200.  Are 
you saying the density of ALL INKS relate back to equivalent K patch 
with the same density, regardless of color?  I was under the impression 
(perhaps a false one) that you would do the following:

LK density is based on the density of the equivalent patch of the K ink.

C, M and Y inks would not have any density input (left blank).

LC density is based on the equivalent density patch of the Cyan ink.

LM density is based on the equivalent density patch of the Magenta ink.

Is this right or wrong? 

Thanks,  

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Staver 
<daniel@p...> wrote:

> The numbers are written on the inkseparation image. If 100% M has the 
> same density as 43% K then the number for M is 43. In other words you 
> move up or down the K scale until you find a patch that matches the 
> density of 100% of the ink you're working with. That K percentage is 
> your value. Repeat for the other inks.
> 
> Like with the ink limits there is plenty room for error here. An 
> approximate guess is enough. The linearization will take care of any 
> remaining problems.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

You do this for every ink that you want to be part of either the Gray 
curve or the Toner curve. Also, for the new version that's coming you 
will have a second toner curve.

The darkest ink in each of those curves will have 100 as a value, and 
then the next darkest ink is measured in relation to that.

For the UC inkset you're correct to assume that the K and LK ink would 
be part of the gray curve. There's nothing that says you would also use 
it for LC and LM however. Unless you made a toner curve consisting of M 
and LM, then you would use 100 for M and measure LM in relation to M.

The UC curves usually works a bit differently in that the toner inks 
have no values of their own, they're just copied from the LK ink and 
then the strength of the LC, LM and Y inks are controlled by setting 
their ink limits.

For other inksets different inks are used. For the UT7 inkset we use K, 
C and LC in the gray curve and M and LM in the toner curve.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no


Louis Dina wrote:

> 
> Daniel,
> 
> Now I am a little confused.  I am using the UC inkset in a 2200.  Are 
> you saying the density of ALL INKS relate back to equivalent K patch 
> with the same density, regardless of color?  I was under the impression 
> (perhaps a false one) that you would do the following:
> 
> LK density is based on the density of the equivalent patch of the K ink.
> 
> C, M and Y inks would not have any density input (left blank).
> 
> LC density is based on the equivalent density patch of the Cyan ink.
> 
> LM density is based on the equivalent density patch of the Magenta ink.
> 
> Is this right or wrong? 
> 
> Thanks,  
> 
> Lou

Lou

You should print the UC separation page and then compare the density of the
LC/LM(/Y) mix (the last "ink" printed) with K.  In essence, you have just
two "inks" which are being used for the greyscale: K and the combined
LC/LM(/Y).  You determine where LC/LM/(Y) partitions with respect to K.

Steve

PS:  I will email you separately the UC Ink Separation page.  In a multiple
grey ink setup the numbers are always linked back to grey.  Grey1 is x% of
K.   Grey2 is y% of grey1 and so is x%.y% of K etc

> From: Louis Dina <lbdina@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:13:32 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] My first QTR paper curve---HELP!!
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel,
> 
> Now I am a little confused.  I am using the UC inkset in a 2200.  Are
> you saying the density of ALL INKS relate back to equivalent K patch
> with the same density, regardless of color?  I was under the impression
> (perhaps a false one) that you would do the following:
> 
> LK density is based on the density of the equivalent patch of the K ink.
> 
> C, M and Y inks would not have any density input (left blank).
> 
> LC density is based on the equivalent density patch of the Cyan ink.
> 
> LM density is based on the equivalent density patch of the Magenta ink.
> 
> Is this right or wrong?
> 
> Thanks,  
> 
> Lou
>

Sorry I should have typed LK/LC/LM/(Y).  It is the combination of all three
(or four) of these that is measured vs K (which at its particular ink limit
is 100%).

> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:01:27 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] My first QTR paper curve---HELP!!
> 
> 
> Lou
> 
> You should print the UC separation page and then compare the density of the
> LC/LM(/Y) mix (the last "ink" printed) with K.  In essence, you have just
> two "inks" which are being used for the greyscale: K and the combined
> LC/LM(/Y).  You determine where LC/LM/(Y) partitions with respect to K.
> 
> Steve
> 
> PS:  I will email you separately the UC Ink Separation page.  In a multiple
> grey ink setup the numbers are always linked back to grey.  Grey1 is x% of
> K.   Grey2 is y% of grey1 and so is x%.y% of K etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: Louis Dina <lbdina@...>
>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:13:32 -0000
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] My first QTR paper curve---HELP!!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Daniel,
>> 
>> Now I am a little confused.  I am using the UC inkset in a 2200.  Are
>> you saying the density of ALL INKS relate back to equivalent K patch
>> with the same density, regardless of color?  I was under the impression
>> (perhaps a false one) that you would do the following:
>> 
>> LK density is based on the density of the equivalent patch of the K ink.
>> 
>> C, M and Y inks would not have any density input (left blank).
>> 
>> LC density is based on the equivalent density patch of the Cyan ink.
>> 
>> LM density is based on the equivalent density patch of the Magenta ink.
>> 
>> Is this right or wrong?
>> 
>> Thanks,  
>> 
>> Lou
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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>

> Sorry I should have typed LK/LC/LM/(Y).  It is the combination of all three
> (or four) of these that is measured vs K (which at its particular ink limit
> is 100%).

You don't measure LC/LM/Y in relation to K for UC inksets. It's enough 
to measure LK. LC/LM/Y will automatically get LK's curve, and then you 
adjust the tone by setting the ink limit for each of those inks.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Thanks, Daniel.  That makes it clearer.

BTW, I do have some UT7 inks in my 2200 now (Windows XP platform).  
Are there any good QTR profiles built for this inkset that I can get 
my grubby little mitts on?  I am trying to learn how to build good 
profiles with QTR for this inkset, use toners, etc.

Thanks,
Lou Dina
lbdina@...


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Staver 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> You do this for every ink that you want to be part of either the 
Gray 
> curve or the Toner curve. Also, for the new version that's coming 
you 
> will have a second toner curve.
> 
> The darkest ink in each of those curves will have 100 as a value, 
and 
> then the next darkest ink is measured in relation to that.
> 
> For the UC inkset you're correct to assume that the K and LK ink 
would 
> be part of the gray curve. There's nothing that says you would also 
use 
> it for LC and LM however. Unless you made a toner curve consisting 
of M 
> and LM, then you would use 100 for M and measure LM in relation to 
M.
> 
> The UC curves usually works a bit differently in that the toner 
inks 
> have no values of their own, they're just copied from the LK ink 
and 
> then the strength of the LC, LM and Y inks are controlled by 
setting 
> their ink limits.
> 
> For other inksets different inks are used. For the UT7 inkset we 
use K, 
> C and LC in the gray curve and M and LM in the toner curve.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
> 
> 
> Louis Dina wrote:
> > 
> > Daniel,
> > 
> > Now I am a little confused.  I am using the UC inkset in a 2200.  
Are 
> > you saying the density of ALL INKS relate back to equivalent K 
patch 
> > with the same density, regardless of color?  I was under the 
impression 
> > (perhaps a false one) that you would do the following:
> > 
> > LK density is based on the density of the equivalent patch of the 
K ink.
> > 
> > C, M and Y inks would not have any density input (left blank).
> > 
> > LC density is based on the equivalent density patch of the Cyan 
ink.
> > 
> > LM density is based on the equivalent density patch of the 
Magenta ink.

> > 
> > Is this right or wrong? 
> > 
> > Thanks,  
> > 
> > Lou

I've made a few that's working great for me, but others say that they 
block up in the shadows. They should work well as a starting point 
anyway. You can download them here:

http://download.petraflux.com/qtr_ut7_profiles.zip

It includes cool, carbon and sepia profiles in both .quad and .qidf formats.

They're designed for EEM with Eboni black ink.

I also have UT7 curves for PKN in the black position and GLOP in the 
yellow position.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

> BTW, I do have some UT7 inks in my 2200 now (Windows XP platform).  
> Are there any good QTR profiles built for this inkset that I can get 
> my grubby little mitts on?  I am trying to learn how to build good 
> profiles with QTR for this inkset, use toners, etc.

Following a dialogue I had with Roy, he sent me an Ink Separation chart
which adds a UC_Neutralizer line.  It is really very handy for determine the
hue of the adjusted LK and for then doing the partitioning based on the
actual combined "second greyscale ink".  If you want the revised ink
separation chart let me know.

> From: Daniel Staver <daniel@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:29:21 +0200
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] My first QTR paper curve---HELP!!
> 
> 
>> Sorry I should have typed LK/LC/LM/(Y).  It is the combination of all three
>> (or four) of these that is measured vs K (which at its particular ink limit
>> is 100%).
> 
> You don't measure LC/LM/Y in relation to K for UC inksets. It's enough
> to measure LK. LC/LM/Y will automatically get LK's curve, and then you
> adjust the tone by setting the ink limit for each of those inks.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
>

Sure, it would be interesting to have a look.

Did you notice a difference in the curve after the linearization when 
doing the partitioning this way? In my experience it seems like exact 
partition values arent very important as long as you linearize.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

> Following a dialogue I had with Roy, he sent me an Ink Separation chart
> which adds a UC_Neutralizer line.  It is really very handy for determine the
> hue of the adjusted LK and for then doing the partitioning based on the
> actual combined "second greyscale ink".  If you want the revised ink
> separation chart let me know.

Hi all-

I just got an Epson Photo 900 out of storage (I forgot about it).

In as much as it uses the same cartridges as the 1280, I know I can get the
B&W inks.

The question is can I use the 1280 settings in QTR to control the printing?

Thanks,

Seth

Done.  The difference in linearization falls generally within the limits of
"rough approximation" that can be largely eliminated by the Linearize
function although I guess at some point you are banging a lot more workload
onto this function.  But for hue it is very useful.

> From: Daniel Staver <daniel@...>

> 
> Sure, it would be interesting to have a look.
> 
> Did you notice a difference in the curve after the linearization when
> doing the partitioning this way? In my experience it seems like exact
> partition values arent very important as long as you linearize.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
>