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Well, What Do You Know...

Well, What Do You Know...

2005-04-25 by Clayton Jones

The world's oldest known photograph, which just sold for $392,000, is
an ink on paper print (made from a plate created with a light
sensitive process).  We are not so far from True Vine.

   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1885093.stm

Interesting article.  The subject of this photograph is an etching. 
So our earliest known photograph was of another work of art.  Perhaps
he was trying to find a way to reproduce original works, and at that
time didn't think of it as a way to create original works...just
speculation.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

RE: [Digital BW] Well, What Do You Know...

2005-04-25 by Andy Biggs

That's interesting, because the University of Texas in Austin has the first
claimed photograph, by Talbot. From what I have read, Talbot created the
first photograph that could be fixed, and that earlier photographs were
taken but quickly faded away.

Andy 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton
Jones
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 2:17 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Well, What Do You Know...



The world's oldest known photograph, which just sold for $392,000, is an ink
on paper print (made from a plate created with a light sensitive process).
We are not so far from True Vine.

   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1885093.stm

Interesting article.  The subject of this photograph is an etching. 
So our earliest known photograph was of another work of art.  Perhaps he was
trying to find a way to reproduce original works, and at that time didn't
think of it as a way to create original works...just speculation.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm





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Re: [Digital BW] Well, What Do You Know...

2005-04-25 by BKPhoto@aol.com

Andy-

You may want to visit:

http://tyler.hrc.utexas.edu/photo/fullDisplay.cfm?CollID=495
     and
http://auden.hrc.utexas.edu/PhotoFiles/dbthnls/niepce.html



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Well, What Do You Know...

2005-04-26 by Clayton Jones

Andy, Bill,

Thanks for the replies.  I've done a little research, the BBC piece
says this:

"The image of an engraving depicting a man leading a horse was made in
1825 by Nicephore Niepce, who invented a technique known as
heliogravure."  And later: "The French Government declared the work -
the date of which is confirmed in a letter from Niepce - to be a
national treasure"

In "The History Of Photography", Beaumont Newhall says that Thomas
Wedgewood was the first to make a photo image on paper sensitized with
silver salts, before 1800, but couldn't fix it.  Then came Niepce,
about whom he says: "Although the only example of his camera work that
remains today appears to have been made in 1827, his letters leave no
doubt that he had succeeded in fixing the camera's image a decade
earlier".  On the following page is a display of the "View From
the Window at Le Gras",1827, with a description that it is a
"direct positive on a metal plate".

Tucked away in my Newhall book is a "Popular Photography" clipping
dated June 2002 with a picture of the same "photograph of an etching",
made in 1825, referred to in the BBC piece.  Newhall does not mention
this image, so perhaps it is something that was discovered after he
wrote the book in 1982.  

Back to Newhall, he goes on to say that Niepce was first interested in
making printing plates, and "since he had little artistic skill he
conceived the idea of making them by means of light".  So it seems my
guess that "Perhaps he was trying to find a way to reproduce original 
works, and at that time didn't think of it as a way to create original
works..." was not too far off the mark.

As for Talbot, Newhall goes on to say that Niepce visited London in
1827 and showed Daguerre some of his heliographs.  They began a
correspondence and in 1829 signed a partnership.  Niepce died in 1831
and Daguerre carried on alone, perfecting his process by 1839, still
on metal plates.  

Daguerre published his process in 1839 which caught the attention of
Talbot who had independently invented a similar system. "As early as
February 28, 1835 Talbot described how a positive image could be made
from the negative". Newhall also described how Talbot fixed his paper
negative using salt.  But these were impermanent and faded after some
time.  He laid aside his work in 1835 for other things, and was
spurred back into action in 1839 after seeing Daguerre's announcement.

At the same time, Sir John Herschel had been experimenting on his own
and had found a better way to fix as early as 1819, and recorded his
method after seeing Daguerre's and Talbot's announcements.

Adding in some other things from newhall,it seems that:

1) The photosensitivity of silver was first recorded by Johann Schulze
in 1727, in Germany.

2) Thomas Wedgewood, England, before 1800, was the first to attempt to
record images on paper with silver salts, but his "sun prints" were
not permanent and turned black.

3) Niepce was the first to successfully make a fixed photo image and
make a lasting print, an ink on paper imprint from an etched photo
sensitive plate.

4) Daguerre was the first to make a fixed positive on the metal plate,
and the plate remained the final display item.  This would be the
first photograph where the light sensitive material remains the final
display item.

5) Talbot was the first to make a paper positive from a paper
negative, but they didn't last very long.

6) Herschel was the first to discover how to truly fix using
"hyposulphite of soda", known today as sodium thiosulphate.

And all of this went on about the same time.  So it's easy to see why
there could be some disagreement on who was "first".  Clearly Talbot
was the first with something like what we know today, a positive from
a negative.  

Yet I still find it significant that the first truly lasting image was
an ink on paper print made from something that was originally created
with a light sensitive process.  Does that sound familiar to anyone?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Well, What Do You Know...

2005-04-26 by Ernst Dinkla

What may have contributed as much to photography as the invention of 
photography itself is the very nice gesture of the French government to 
grant annuities to Daguerre and the son of Niepce in exchange for the 
rights so the invention became free for everyone to use.

Today we see the opposite of that, patents issued for the silliest 
inventions and when the rules are bended even more they actually could 
patent photography again in the US 200 years after its invention.

See also:

http://yro.slashdot.org/search.pl?topic=155

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Well, What Do You Know...

2005-04-26 by Peter Marshall

Ernst Dinkla wrote:
> What may have contributed as much to photography as the invention of 
> photography itself is the very nice gesture of the French government to 
> grant annuities to Daguerre and the son of Niepce in exchange for the 
> rights so the invention became free for everyone to use.
> 
> Today we see the opposite of that, patents issued for the silliest 
> inventions and when the rules are bended even more they actually could 
> patent photography again in the US 200 years after its invention.
> 
> See also:
> 
> http://yro.slashdot.org/search.pl?topic=155
> 
> Ernst

But what did Daguerre do? He rushed out and patented it in England!

And of course the Daguerreotype was a dead end. Talbot also patented his 
work and although that altered the course of development of photography, 
it didn't stop it.

There is also a long history in photography of patents being granted for 
things people didn't actually invent. In some cases the US Patent office 
eventually sorted matters out, but I think the department for doing that 
closed long ago:-)

I'm against many current developments in patents, and have contacted my 
MEPs recently on the subject, but the development of photography 
happened in spite of patents, and occasionally I think they did play a 
useful part in encouraging investment in research.

Regards,

Peter Marshall
About Photography 	      http://photography.about.com
31 Budebury Rd, STAINES, Middx, TW18 2AZ, UK
_________________________________________________________________
My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
and elsewhere......

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