Digital BW, The Print

Well put, Leon. I can at least respect the poor guy who started the 
thread by announcing the new group (which, BTW, was clearly described 
as a discussion of the logistical/financial/billing/etc. issues of 
running a printing business). He was, to his credit, attempting to 
share actual information and knowledge and thereby further the craft.

The only inappropriate giclee-ing I saw was from the ax-grinders 
spewing the same ol' sewage all over an entire new group, sight unseen, 
on the basis of an inconsequential word choice. You'd think the 
original poster had announced an inkjet printing alliance with Satan or 
something.

So to all the giclee-er haters out there... step away from the 
French-English dictionaries... take a deep breath... and let's get back 
to the positive photographic energy thing, 'kay?

Also respectfully,
Doug

.

> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 03:28:59 -0000
>    From: "caelin2" <caelin@...>
> Subject: Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business101"
>
>
> With all due respect John, when I said "get over it" I was refering
> to the old argument about what to call a digital print. Nothing more
> nothing less, guess I'm just tired of that discussion. I've heard it
> a lot on this forum so it seems like a re-hash to me. My intentions
> have never been to squelch discussion of any kind, I'd just like to
> see discussion pertinent to the topic presented. As to your reply
> being off topic, well technically you're correct, your response was
> on topic...where you got in on it. Unfortunately the beginning of the
> thread wasn't about what to name an inkjet print it was to inform
> people about a new group that was being formed to discuss the
> business of injet printing. That's what I meant by getting off topic.
> Sorry if I ruffled your feathers that wasn't my intention at all.
> I'll quietly go back to my skulking in the shadows now and if and
> when I have some concrete imperical information to pass along then I
> will.
>
> Respectfully,
> Leon Strembitsky "caelin2"
>
[in response to approximately 37 previous posts regaling us with 
knee-slapper "giclee" jokes, calling the "Giclee Business 101" 
moderator an idiot, and generally reporting that even THINKING the 
G-word will surely cause the end of photography as we know it]

I am not a giclee-er hater, or whatever that means. I believe my reply
to the original post sparked all this. No way should it have turned
into such a lengthy thread.
This effects me directly, I was not simply musing about the meaning of
it all. I have a very small business specializing in fine art B&W
digital quad printing. We work with people to create original pieces,
not reproductions.
If you knew the business practices many of the so-called giclee shops
have engaged in, and the reputation they have made for the anything
associated with the word, you'd understand my objection, and those of
others here in similar business's doing extraordinary work.
The more I can distance myself and other fine printers from the term
and everything it conjures, the better.
Regarding the creation of the group, the intentions may be fine. But
the fact they have chosen to associate with the terminology means 1 of
2 things. Either they have no knowledge of the industry, and therefore
have no idea of the potential problems of the terminology, or they
embrace it. Neither reason, do I find very impressive.
Based on my impressions of the giclee industry, the group sort of
smells like "how to maximize profits selling services you know nothing
about" kind of thing.
...by carefully placing teeny teeny ads...
You know.
I wish them luck, they now have Epson on their side.
I don't wish to extend the thread, I just don't think everyone
discussing the issue realizes how some of us may feel about it as it
effects us directly.
We fight to overcome the reputation of the term every day.
Tyler



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Doug I.
<puzzolente@s...> wrote:

> Well put, Leon. I can at least respect the poor guy who started the 
> thread by announcing the new group (which, BTW, was clearly described 
> as a discussion of the logistical/financial/billing/etc. issues of 
> running a printing business). He was, to his credit, attempting to 
> share actual information and knowledge and thereby further the craft.
> 
> The only inappropriate giclee-ing I saw was from the ax-grinders 
> spewing the same ol' sewage all over an entire new group, sight unseen, 
> on the basis of an inconsequential word choice. You'd think the 
> original poster had announced an inkjet printing alliance with Satan or 
> something.
> 
> So to all the giclee-er haters out there... step away from the 
> French-English dictionaries... take a deep breath... and let's get back 
> to the positive photographic energy thing, 'kay?
> 
> Also respectfully,
> Doug
> 
> .
> 
> > Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 03:28:59 -0000
> >    From: "caelin2" <caelin@i...>
> > Subject: Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business101"
> >
> >
> > With all due respect John, when I said "get over it" I was refering
> > to the old argument about what to call a digital print. Nothing more
> > nothing less, guess I'm just tired of that discussion. I've heard it
> > a lot on this forum so it seems like a re-hash to me. My intentions
> > have never been to squelch discussion of any kind, I'd just like to
> > see discussion pertinent to the topic presented. As to your reply
> > being off topic, well technically you're correct, your response was
> > on topic...where you got in on it. Unfortunately the beginning of the
> > thread wasn't about what to name an inkjet print it was to inform
> > people about a new group that was being formed to discuss the
> > business of injet printing. That's what I meant by getting off topic.
> > Sorry if I ruffled your feathers that wasn't my intention at all.
> > I'll quietly go back to my skulking in the shadows now and if and
> > when I have some concrete imperical information to pass along then I
> > will.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > Leon Strembitsky "caelin2"
> >
> [in response to approximately 37 previous posts regaling us with 
> knee-slapper "giclee" jokes, calling the "Giclee Business 101" 
> moderator an idiot, and generally reporting that even THINKING the 
> G-word will surely cause the end of photography as we know it]

>>> a lot on this forum so it seems like a re-hash to me. My intentions
>>> have never been to squelch discussion of any kind, I'd just like to
>>> see discussion pertinent to the topic presented. As to your reply
>>> being off topic, well technically you're correct, your response was
>>> on topic...where you got in on it. Unfortunately the beginning of the
>>> thread wasn't about what to name an inkjet print it was to inform
>>> people about a new group that was being formed to discuss the
>>> business of injet printing. That's what I meant by getting off topic.
>>> Sorry if I ruffled your feathers that wasn't my intention at all.
>>> I'll quietly go back to my skulking in the shadows now and if and
>>> when I have some concrete imperical information to pass along then I
>>> will.
>>> 
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Leon Strembitsky "caelin2"
>>> 
>> [in response to approximately 37 previous posts regaling us with
>> knee-slapper "giclee" jokes, calling the "Giclee Business 101"
>> moderator an idiot, and generally reporting that even THINKING the
>> G-word will surely cause the end of photography as we know it]
> 
I think there are two sides to the so called ³Giclée industry² and two
meanings to the word ³Giclée² in effect.
One is I think a positive one of the use of higher standards of papers and
pigments or dyes to appeal to serious collectors, galleries and museums so
the process itself (Inkjetting) can gain the acceptance other photographic
printing forms have. Such as regular gelatin silver prints. And others.

But there is an evil flip side to the whole Giclée thing from what I can
tell.
The shlock décor side. A shlockier lower level of making a buck in the Art
scam thing. Poster Art, ³Décor²
Tasteless commercialism knows no bounds and will always be there, right from
the beginning no matter what you do.
It doest ruin the whole art world. You make sure you separate yourself form
it.
You don¹t have shows in those (what I call Fake) poster galleries for one.
Or sell your stuff on the internet for 30 bucks a pop.

Me, despite the humorous off color French connotation which much of Europe
seems aware of - for me the term ³Giclée² works.
And the term ³inkjet² does not. And does not have a good ³ring² to it for
the most part I don¹t think it will do well for the process it represents.
And to people who do the process.
If this list responds in a big negative way to the term ³Giclée² then I¹ll
make an effort to not use it. Should not be too hard.
But as I said I think a term which means serious inkjet and promotes it is a
good thing. And ³Glicee² is a good word which has only half headed in the
wrong direction. Which means it¹s half headed in the right direction.

When I was a kid I was the only kid in the neighborhood with a darkroom.
I as the only kid in several neighborhoods maybe with a darkroom maybe.
Now every other kid had in effect a darkroom.
The Grammer schools and certainly the high schools are crammed with kids who
are Cranking out prints which look darn good.
On cheap paper make and with not so great ³inks². But drugstore snapshots
they are not. These people are printing..

Its a great thing photography being opened up like this.
But lets make sure people know that an inkjet is not always an inkjet.
It¹s one thing what comes out of a 99 dollar printer. Even though it looks
amazingly good.
And other which comes out of a say an Epson with pigment inks and real nice
paper. And careful more thought out printing techniques as is mainly
discussed here..
And that this other thing is worth a serious investment just like an
archival darkroom print or a painting or water color.


Mark Rabiner
Photography
Portland Oregon
http://rabinergroup.com/