Digital BW, The Print

I've seen a hint of this and am looking forward to trying it.  I had planned on trying your BO on my 1280 for the last 2 years but procrastinated long enough to find QTR LOL.  

Diane
  Something else to consider - several people have been experimenting
  with QTR and 2-black-ink curves (K+LK).  Steve Karafyllakis has been
  blending inks for the LK position to try and control the color better
  (UC LK is too warm and UT7 LK is too blue-green), and is getting
  stunning results.  He's calling it "2K" printing, and hopefully he
  will report his results soon.  The nice thing about it is its similar
  to BO in that it does allow paper to show between the dots, even
  though they are closer together.  It preserves much of BO's
  luminosity, and gives a much smoother appearance.  Dmax is also good,
  though maybe a tad shy of BO's.  So this is worth keeping an eye on.


  Regards,
  Clayton



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Diane,

>I've seen a hint of this and am looking forward to trying it.  I 
>had planned on trying your BO on my 1280 for the last 2 years but
>procrastinated long enough to find QTR LOL.  

Well, you are culturally deprived if you haven't tried it <G>.

Re 2K printing, I forgot to add that QTR is awfully finicky about
banding.  Using 2K on my 2200 I have to set the paper thickness lever
on the Envelope position or there is very bad banding.  So getting it
right seems to be part art, part craft, and part magic <g>.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Diane

Unless I am missing something, the QTR curves for the standard Epson inks
have always been "2K".  That is to say, they have always used a greyscale
compiled from K and LK with the tone of the latter controlled using LC, LM
and Y.  Of course one can always move away from the Epson ink setup and put
in any ink you feel like (purchased or a self-made mix).  At the moment I am
running the following setup (as is, in effect, I believe Carl Schofield)

# Uses the MIS inks in the following positions:
# K PKN
# LK glop
# C PK 
# LC UT7 Warm Light Grey
# M Eboni
# LM UT7 Cool Light Grey
# Y UT7 Sepia toner

I have warm, neutral, cool and sepia curves - each of which is effectively
"2K".  Combine this flexible, matte and photo paper setup with the ICC
profile managed workflow and the results are fantastic.

I would argue that Black Only's principal appeal is its simplicity - nothing
need be installed (assuming you already have the Epson driver) etc.  It
could be significantly improved further with a greyscale ICC profile for the
BO output but that remains difficult to construct unless you have the
ability to write a program to write the ICC profile (which is not too
difficult a process if you are, say, a C++ or Objective C programmer).

The "next step" after dabbling with BO is arguably QTR with OEM inks which
as noted is 2K.  From there it is literally choose your poison and whatever
inks you want to try and whatever number you wish to employ in creating the
greyscale - up to 7K.

As Clayton notes there is a very small dMax hit associated with leaving the
Epson driver QTR (at least for the 21/2200) but to be honest it is so small
as to be insignificant in an actaul print (1.60ish vs 1.65ish)

Steve

> From: Diane Fields <picnic@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:44:57 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Black only printing and banding
> 
> I've seen a hint of this and am looking forward to trying it.  I had planned
> on trying your BO on my 1280 for the last 2 years but procrastinated long
> enough to find QTR LOL.
> 
> Diane
>   Something else to consider - several people have been experimenting
>   with QTR and 2-black-ink curves (K+LK).  Steve Karafyllakis has been
>   blending inks for the LK position to try and control the color better
>   (UC LK is too warm and UT7 LK is too blue-green), and is getting
>   stunning results.  He's calling it "2K" printing, and hopefully he
>   will report his results soon.  The nice thing about it is its similar
>   to BO in that it does allow paper to show between the dots, even
>   though they are closer together.  It preserves much of BO's
>   luminosity, and gives a much smoother appearance.  Dmax is also good,
>   though maybe a tad shy of BO's.  So this is worth keeping an eye on.
> 
> 
>   Regards,
>   Clayton
>

Banding should not be an issue if you are using either resolution "1440
super" or "2880" dpi and high speed "better".  I do have, however, problems
with just "1440" but then simply don't use it.  I use ordered dither and
have the paper lever set where it should be depending on whether the paper
is front or rear loaded.

The so-called "100% K" issue remains though and the problem here is in the
Gimp code - I understand IJC/OPM has the same problem.  This isn't banding
though but rather a breakdown of the dither at evenly spaced intervals
leaving evenly spaced faint lines perpendicular to the passage of the print
head.  A small dose of noise can alleviate the issue.

> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>
> 
> Diane,
> 
>> I've seen a hint of this and am looking forward to trying it.  I
>> had planned on trying your BO on my 1280 for the last 2 years but
>> procrastinated long enough to find QTR LOL.
> 
> Well, you are culturally deprived if you haven't tried it <G>.
> 
> Re 2K printing, I forgot to add that QTR is awfully finicky about
> banding.  Using 2K on my 2200 I have to set the paper thickness lever
> on the Envelope position or there is very bad banding.  So getting it
> right seems to be part art, part craft, and part magic <g>.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Diane,
> 
> >I've seen a hint of this and am looking forward to trying it.  I 
> >had planned on trying your BO on my 1280 for the last 2 years but
> >procrastinated long enough to find QTR LOL.  
> 
> Well, you are culturally deprived if you haven't tried it <G>.
> 
> Re 2K printing, I forgot to add that QTR is awfully finicky about
> banding.  Using 2K on my 2200 I have to set the paper thickness 
lever
> on the Envelope position or there is very bad banding.  So getting 
it
> right seems to be part art, part craft, and part magic <g>.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Head height can have a huge effect on banding. Also if you are using 
a suitable RIP, there is a paper feed adjustment for some printers 
(if supported) that can help. The big Epson printers can usually get 
this adjustment through the service menu too. And the pro printers 
also have more adjustment for height and spacing, I think my 9500 has 
four mechanical positions and 12 for each of electrical adjustment. 
Basically the higher the head, the more the ink spreads before 
hitting the paper. I used to have to raise the head on my 1520 to 
envelope when printing thick media like Hahnemuhle German Etching.

My personal preference is BO on canvas.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> It
> could be significantly improved further with a greyscale ICC profile 
for the
> BO output but that remains difficult to construct unless you have the
> ability to write a program to write the ICC profile (which is not too
> difficult a process if you are, say, a C++ or Objective C programmer).
> 
>

It's actually a little easier than that. If you use a RIP, and make 
CMYK profiles, all you need is ColorshopX from Xrite. It will generate 
a BO profile from the CMYK profile, or measured values (I've never 
tried from measured values). The RIP may not be able to use the profile 
directly, but you can convert the image in an editor to the BO space 
and then print. From what little I have done, this makes a big 
improvement to the image by putting the highlights and shadows within 
the proper limits, also should help with any non-linearities that your 
particular printer may have.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Diane
> 
> Unless I am missing something, the QTR curves for the standard 
Epson inks
> have always been "2K".  That is to say, they have always used a 
greyscale
> compiled from K and LK with the tone of the latter controlled 
using LC, LM
> and Y. 

Steve; 

I suppose you can call the above a "2k" printing method, but to me 
it seems a bit contradictory, since (except for the 'warm' carbon-
only curves) you're laying down at least two more inks to balance  
those warm Epson blacks. At any rate, lets call what I'm playing 
with 2KO (2 black ONLY) to differentiate, yes? 

My current interest is to find a simple arrangement that strikes a 
better balance between the dottiness of BO and the more filled-in, 
veiled look too much ink on the paper can produce. 2KO provides a 
smoother print than BO,  with better dmax and better mid-to-
highlight luminosity than I was getting with UT-1. That says nothing 
about anyone else's favorite combination, they may all do better 
than UT-1, but I think this is well worth exploring.

Of course until MIS gives us a true neutral LK that matches Eboni 
(the UT-7 LK doesn't come close)  there is the added nuisance of 
having to mix your own LK ink. Not all bad, since you get to 
customize to your own taste. The other downside is the fact that you 
have upset the proverbial applecart where the other pre-packaged 
curves and resulting tonalities are concerned. I'm having to tweak 
the sepia curves to give me a couple steps further in that 
direction. But that's turning out to be easy enough, and I'm quite 
happy with the results. 

None of which addresses the banding problem that started this 
thread, and considering I use a 7600 not a 2200, I'm not sure I can 
help if the previous poter's printer is set to 1440-super 
and 'better' printing. I did notice however that when I went into 
the driver to set the above as defaults, the(super) box was 
unchecked. When I checked it virtually all of the remaining banding 
I had with QTR went away. Could that be a bug in QTR? 

Hope this helps-someone.

Steve Karafyllakis

http://www.stevekphoto.com

Steve,

I've been using MIS PKN and UT7 LK with a two ink QTR profile in my 
4000.  I recently noted a shift in hue of the UT7 LK towards warm 
(yellow) and I'm not certain yet why.  Could  just have been a bad 
batch of UT7 LK the last time I loaded a cart or instability of the 
ink.  I had to resort to adding some LM and LC in the profile to get 
back to neutral with this batch of ink.  Most of this printing has been 
with Epson premium semimatte.  I'd also like to see MIS offer a matched 
set of neutral MK, PK, and LK inks for the UC printers.  Adding the 
light inks (particularly LM and LC) to the mix tends to exacerbate 
bronzing on the semimatte.

Carl

On Apr 28, 2005, at 6:42 PM, Steven Karafyllakis wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> Diane
>>
>> Unless I am missing something, the QTR curves for the standard
> Epson inks
>> have always been "2K".  That is to say, they have always used a
> greyscale
>> compiled from K and LK with the tone of the latter controlled
> using LC, LM
>> and Y.
>
> Steve;
>
> I suppose you can call the above a "2k" printing method, but to me
> it seems a bit contradictory, since (except for the 'warm' carbon-
> only curves) you're laying down at least two more inks to balance
> those warm Epson blacks. At any rate, lets call what I'm playing
> with 2KO (2 black ONLY) to differentiate, yes?
>
> My current interest is to find a simple arrangement that strikes a
> better balance between the dottiness of BO and the more filled-in,
> veiled look too much ink on the paper can produce. 2KO provides a
> smoother print than BO,  with better dmax and better mid-to-
> highlight luminosity than I was getting with UT-1. That says nothing
> about anyone else's favorite combination, they may all do better
> than UT-1, but I think this is well worth exploring.
>
> Of course until MIS gives us a true neutral LK that matches Eboni
> (the UT-7 LK doesn't come close)  there is the added nuisance of
> having to mix your own LK ink. Not all bad, since you get to
> customize to your own taste. The other downside is the fact that you
> have upset the proverbial applecart where the other pre-packaged
> curves and resulting tonalities are concerned. I'm having to tweak
> the sepia curves to give me a couple steps further in that
> direction. But that's turning out to be easy enough, and I'm quite
> happy with the results.
>
> None of which addresses the banding problem that started this
> thread, and considering I use a 7600 not a 2200, I'm not sure I can
> help if the previous poter's printer is set to 1440-super
> and 'better' printing. I did notice however that when I went into
> the driver to set the above as defaults, the(super) box was
> unchecked. When I checked it virtually all of the remaining banding
> I had with QTR went away. Could that be a bug in QTR?
>
> Hope this helps-someone.
>
> Steve Karafyllakis
>
> http://www.stevekphoto.com
>