Digital BW, The Print

Hello All,

Eboni BO print on my windowsill torture test, now at 18 months - no
sign of fading.

The print is on a south facing window sill that has an awning (in
South Florida).  It gets very bright indirect light all day, and a
small amount direct sunlight during early morning and late afternoon
as it peeks under the awning.  Room has A/C so temp & humidity are
moderate.  

Print was placed there on November 3, 2003.  It has a piece of 4-ply
mat board taped across it at exact markings so I can check under it
periodically.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton, are you simultaneously testing various papers/pigs/dyes? 

If not, what paper are you testing here? 

Is "fading" really an issue with black "inks" (Vs pigs)? 

I'd have thought black, if significantly carbon, stayed black. If it
fades in few centuries, doesn't that demonstrate that it's
substantially something other than carbon? 

If substantially carbon I'd expect the paper to crumble first, along
with the pyramids. Unreasonable expectation? 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:

> Hello All,
> 
> Eboni BO print on my windowsill torture test, now at 18 months - no
> sign of fading.
> 
> The print is on a south facing window sill that has an awning (in
> South Florida).  It gets very bright indirect light all day, and a
> small amount direct sunlight during early morning and late afternoon
> as it peeks under the awning.  Room has A/C so temp & humidity are
> moderate.  
> 
> Print was placed there on November 3, 2003.  It has a piece of 4-ply
> mat board taped across it at exact markings so I can check under it
> periodically.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Djon,

>Clayton, are you simultaneously testing various papers/pigs/dyes? 

No, just a few things that I have personal interest in.  I keep this
one there to see if it ever does begin to fade.  Eboni is widely used
so I post an update on it now and then.  An unprotected print
withstanding direct sunlight seems pretty significant.


>If not, what paper are you testing here? 

Sorry, forgot. It's on EEM.

 
>Is "fading" really an issue with black "inks" (Vs pigs)? 

I think it's an issue with any ink.  An ink either does or doesn't
fade, within a given time frame under certain conditions, and it's a
good thing to know for any inks you're using, especially if they are
toned.  The Septone inks faded at 4 months.  How does that translate
to "under glass in room light"?  I don't know.  It just seems
significant that it faded in 4 months and Eboni BO is at 18 and
counting.  Eveyone can draw their own conclusions.

Last summer I began testing the original UT7 inks and they faded in 6
months.  MIS says that was an experimental formula and was advertised
as such, and that last August they changed it to use better toners.
But they also admit that even the best toners don't last as long as
pure carbon.  But I don't know what that means in practical terms.  So
in February I printed new test strips with the new UT7 inks, so we'll
see how they do.  Surely they will do much better.  

I have also been experimenting with a modified UT7 formula which
eliminates most of the non-carbon toners.  It should significantly
reduce any chances of fading.  I'm almost done and will start a fade
test on that pretty soon.  Right now Eboni BO is the only thing I have
full confidence in.  If it can withstand the windowsill for 18 months
it should do well under glass in room light.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton,

Let me clarify a few things relating to UT7.

I agree with you that carbon is probably the toughest pigment we have
available, although cyan is also extremely lightfast.  The color pigments
are getting good, but some are better than others.  The weaklings last year
were magenta and yellow.  The R800 clone blue is much tougher than the
magenta.  So I replaced the magenta with the R800 clone blue in all UT
formulas.  MIS sells these new formulas now. As you noted, your earlier
tests were with the older formulas -- which were nonetheless still the most
lightfast neutral inks available then according to my tests.

Because carbon is so tough, the UT2, UT7, and EZ-W inksets have pure carbon
in them.  With the UT2 and UT7, you need to use the carbon curve to get that
pure carbon.  However, maintaining the ability to print pure carbon has been
one of my design parameters.

The sliders do not print with pure carbon.  Then use a mix of all the inks,
including both the cool and sepia toners.  As such, the sliders have more
color pigments in them than if one uses the curves.

Nonetheless, on January 14, you reported as follows:

"#1 - with all controls at 0 ...

#1 - No toners   - No sign of fading"

The most significant fading was with the sepia toner.  That toner was then
composed of both yellow and magenta in significant amounts, even if it
remained more than 50% carbon.  Thus it had a significant amount of
relatively weak color pigments, but it would still be more lightfast than
any sepia tone that a color inkset would produce.  The UT sepia toner is now
composed of carbon, yellow, and R800 clone red.   So, it's better, but still
not what I would recommend for the best lightfastness.

The bottom line is that Eboni may be the most lightfast of the pigments
available to us.  It is "pure" carbon as far as we know.  There are also
"pure carbon" inks in the warm spots of the UT2 and UT7 inksets.  And the
EZ-W is pure carbon.  Whether all these carbons are equal in their
lightfastness is uncertain.  Pigment particle size and other variables may
give one carbon pigment a slight advantage over another.

I think we can safely assume that everything ultimately fades.  Carbon tends
to yellow a bit and actually becomes more dense at first in my tests.  I
have not continued a fade test long enough to see significant fading with
carbon.  The latest neutral UT inks are also very tough, but not as good as
carbon.

Since I don't like the pure carbon for most images, I'm inclined to use the
medium warm UT curves where I want the best longevity as well as a tone that
will be considered neutral.

I'll be interested to see how your tests of the newer UT formulas do.  Mine
are such that I just don't worry about fading that much any more.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton
> Jones
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 7:43 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni Fade Test - Latest Report
> 
> Hello Djon,
> 
> >Clayton, are you simultaneously testing various papers/pigs/dyes?
> 
> No, just a few things that I have personal interest in.  I keep this
> one there to see if it ever does begin to fade.  Eboni is widely used
> so I post an update on it now and then.  An unprotected print
> withstanding direct sunlight seems pretty significant.
> 
> 
> >If not, what paper are you testing here?
> 
> Sorry, forgot. It's on EEM.
> 
> 
> >Is "fading" really an issue with black "inks" (Vs pigs)?
> 
> I think it's an issue with any ink.  An ink either does or doesn't
> fade, within a given time frame under certain conditions, and it's a
> good thing to know for any inks you're using, especially if they are
> toned.  The Septone inks faded at 4 months.  How does that translate
> to "under glass in room light"?  I don't know.  It just seems
> significant that it faded in 4 months and Eboni BO is at 18 and
> counting.  Eveyone can draw their own conclusions.
> 
> Last summer I began testing the original UT7 inks and they faded in 6
> months.  MIS says that was an experimental formula and was advertised
> as such, and that last August they changed it to use better toners.
> But they also admit that even the best toners don't last as long as
> pure carbon.  But I don't know what that means in practical terms.  So
> in February I printed new test strips with the new UT7 inks, so we'll
> see how they do.  Surely they will do much better.
> 
> I have also been experimenting with a modified UT7 formula which
> eliminates most of the non-carbon toners.  It should significantly
> reduce any chances of fading.  I'm almost done and will start a fade
> test on that pretty soon.  Right now Eboni BO is the only thing I have
> full confidence in.  If it can withstand the windowsill for 18 months
> it should do well under glass in room light.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Hello Paul,

>Let me clarify a few things relating to UT7.

Thanks for filling in all the details about the mixtures.  I was
trying to keep my post brief and just convey the concepts.  I'm
confident the new UT7 will do much better (confident enough that I
have invested a lot of time and $ in working with it).


>The latest neutral UT inks are also very tough, but not as good as
>carbon.

Both you and Bob have told me this, and it is what I was trying to
convey in my remarks: in practical terms we simply don't know what the
limits are - it's still a question mark.  

The reason for my testing is to try to replace that question mark with
something.  Even though the windowsill is not a realistic test
compared to how a print will actually be treated, it does provide a
benchmark of sorts - we know that ink A lasts longer than ink B.  It's
up to the individual to decide if an ink that fades on the windowsill
after N months will be ok under glass in room light for X number of
years.

 
>I'll be interested to see how your tests of the newer UT formulas do.

I will be delighted if they resist windowsill fading for many months,
as I'm counting on them for being part of my tool kit.  
 

>Mine are such that I just don't worry about fading that much any 
>more.

You have said this to me before, and it always leaves me with the
question of how much is "that much"?  Does that mean you worry a
little bit?  I guess I'm paranoid, but I have a real concern about it.
It's one of the reasons I stick with Eboni BO - with papers such as
Condor and Merlin I can sell neutral colored prints that I'm confident
will not fade any time soon.  I am thrilled that Eboni can withstand
the windowsill for so long.

Of course BO is famously grainy, so I've been working on a modified
UT7 formula to try and reduce the amount of toners and still get a
good neutral color.  It is coming along very well so far, just a bit
of fine tuning yet to go.  BTW, this was accomplished only with your
help and suggestions for which inks may be interchanged - thanks very
much for that.  Of the 4 toned inks, 2 are completely replaced by
carbon inks, and a 3rd is cut by 50% with a carbon ink.  Only one
remains unchanged.  It's working beautifully, and the sliders still
give a small amount of warm/cool selection. I'll write up the details
when it's done. 

Thanks again for all your help.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton,

> ...
> >[My fade tests] are such that I just don't worry about fading 
> >that much any more.
> 
> You have said this to me before, and it always leaves me with the
> question of how much is "that much"?  Does that mean you worry a
> little bit?  I guess I'm paranoid, but I have a real concern about it.
> It's one of the reasons I stick with Eboni BO ...

I think the UT neutral links would test at well above any of the published
Wilhelm Epson UC or Epson Archival test results.  So, while I think people
can abuse the prints by leaving them in the sun, I think indirect, bright
light would not noticeably fade them for long enough that I'll be dead
before it's a problem.

I suppose if I really believed the "Wilhelm years" I wouldn't worry at all.
However, I don't take them as being all that accurate.  Any accelerated
testing is a guess.  For example, the artificial drying of the pigs by the
bright light might well result in an exaggerated estimate of the display
life.  So, until we have many more years of actual experience with these
pigments, there will be some uncertainty.  The more carbon the better, but
for me that is only as long as it is consistent with the look I like.  For
most prints, medium warm is about as warm as I want to go, and I'm not a
"Tri-X" look type.  So, I need more smoothness that BO can deliver.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> pigments, there will be some uncertainty.  The more carbon the
better, but
> for me that is only as long as it is consistent with the look I
like.  For
> most prints, medium warm is about as warm as I want to go, and I'm not a
> "Tri-X" look type.  So, I need more smoothness that BO can deliver.
> 

Paul,

How would the UT-FS fare when compared to the other UT inksets: just
as good or better (in keeping with the discussion at hand)?

Would I be correct in assuming that carbon is only one of four inks
used with the UT-FS inkset and therefore have higher carbon content
than the other UT inkset where 6 or 7 inks are used ?

Thanks,
Andre Moreau

Andre,


> How would the UT-FS fare when compared to the other UT inksets: just
> as good or better (in keeping with the discussion at hand)?

The UT-FS has 50% of the toner that the UT-FS-N has.  So, it would be
slightly more lightfast than a neutral print, but not quite as lightfast as
a pure carbon print.   All are, of course, very lightfast.

> Would I be correct in assuming that carbon is only one of four inks
> used with the UT-FS inkset and therefore have higher carbon content
> than the other UT inkset where 6 or 7 inks are used?

I think the final tone of the print tells you most about the relative
amounts of carbon versus color pigs.  With the UT variable-tone prints, the
idea is to start with pure carbon and then put in color pigment toner
(actually a mix or carbon and color pigments that is still predominantly
carbon) only to the extent needed to cool off the carbon to the desired
tone.  So, in the variable tone inksets, how stable they are is up to the
user.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> > pigments, there will be some uncertainty.  The more carbon the
> better, but
> > for me that is only as long as it is consistent with the look I
> like.  For
> > most prints, medium warm is about as warm as I want to go, and I'm not a
> > "Tri-X" look type.  So, I need more smoothness that BO can deliver.
> >
> 
> 
>

Hello Paul,

>I think the UT neutral links would test at well above any of the 
>published Wilhelm Epson UC or Epson Archival test results.  
>...if I really believed the "Wilhelm years"...I don't take them as 
>being all that accurate.  Any accelerated testing is a guess...So, 
>until we have many more years of actual experience with these 
>pigments, there will be some uncertainty.  

Understood, all very good points.  Perhaps I am being too
conservative, but I've just seen too many things fade to get
comfortable yet.


>I think indirect, bright light would not noticeably fade them for 
>long enough that I'll be dead before it's a problem.

My concern goes beyond my own lifetime. I'm not so worried that I have
to answer for it, but that the customer has a print that lasts.  For
years I've done lots of portrait work, and many families treasure them
and want to pass them on to later generations.  Just recently I did a
portrait of the pastor of our church who is leaving, and it went up on
the wall in the library with portraits of others going back to 1886. 
That photo will be there indefinitely, and the room has a skylight. 
The pics don't get direct sunlight, but there is fairly bright
daylight all day and I assume there's a significant UV component.  I
made sure it was framed with UV glass.

The image didn't work well with BO so I used the modified UT7 I've
been working on, which has eliminated much of the non-carbon toners. 
So it's the best I could do right now.  I just hope there isn't a
problem years down the road.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton, what's your altitude ? (not attitude) :-)

If anywhere near sea level, and especially if you have lots of cloud
cover, rain, overcast days, your test may not be as tough as display
on a typical modern office wall...depending on the UV output of the
office's fluorescent lighting.

Hi Clayton.

If any c-print color portraits of a decade or two ago haven't gone
green under those conditions you should be very good to go.

Most church gallerys I've seen of late could substitute for the old
roundabouts in a 30 year old color lab:))

Regards
Duane

> 
> My concern goes beyond my own lifetime. I'm not so worried that I have
> to answer for it, but that the customer has a print that lasts.  For
> years I've done lots of portrait work, and many families treasure them
> and want to pass them on to later generations.  Just recently I did a
> portrait of the pastor of our church who is leaving, and it went up on
> the wall in the library with portraits of others going back to 1886. 
> That photo will be there indefinitely, and the room has a skylight. 
> The pics don't get direct sunlight, but there is fairly bright
> daylight all day and I assume there's a significant UV component.  I
> made sure it was framed with UV glass.
> 
> The image didn't work well with BO so I used the modified UT7 I've
> been working on, which has eliminated much of the non-carbon toners. 
> So it's the best I could do right now.  I just hope there isn't a
> problem years down the road.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Djon,

>Clayton, what's your altitude?

I live in West Palm Beach, FLorida, at sea level.

>If anywhere near sea level, and especially if you have lots of cloud
>cover, rain, overcast days, your test may not be as tough as display
>on a typical modern office wall...depending on the UV output of the
>office's fluorescent lighting.

Understood.  It's very sunny here much of the time, but it really
doesn't matter.  Whatever it is, it is.  My test is only a means to
compare one ink to another.  As long as they get the same treatment it
can tell us that A outlasts B.  That's about all it's good for. 
Everyone will have to draw their own conclusions.

For example, a grayscale print made in September '03 with the original
UC inks in my then new 2200 is now, at 20 months, beginning to show
signs of fading.  An Eboni BO print shows no fading at 18 months.  So
what does that mean?  Probably different things to different people.
I'm just reporting the facts in case anyone is interested.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hi Duane,

>If any c-print color portraits of a decade or two ago haven't gone
>green under those conditions you should be very good to go.

There are a few and yes they are doing strange green and orange
things.  I'm considering shooting them with my digicam and reprinting.


>Most church gallerys I've seen of late could substitute for the old
>roundabouts in a 30 year old color lab:))

Fortunately all but a few are BW prints - some very nice portrait work
in there too (as well as some horrible Olin Mills type stuff...ugh).


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm