Digital BW, The Print

Steven,

You can't condemn all R1800's just because you got a dud! Mine is great, for 
B&W and color (using the Adobe98 setting in the driver). No banding.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@...>
and an
> 1800 for BW?

You've got it backwards here: The 1800 does the better color,
especially with the premium profiles provided by Epson, but is
worthless for B&W. The one I took back showed at least some banding
at even the highest quality settings.

Bob,

I am trying to get B/W with matte with my R1800. There is a slight green cast,
which I can almost remove with a Curve, decreasing the Green channel from 128
down to 126. I have also tried Hue/Saturation with a sepia foreground with
Colorize, and then reducing the Saturation to about 2. That warms the print up
a little.

Could you please explain "using the Adobe98 setting in the driver". When
printing with PS cs, I use my R1800 as the print space, with no color
adjustment. Am I missing something?

Thanks,

Sonny

>  You can't condemn all R1800's just because you got a dud! Mine is great, for
>  B&W and color (using the Adobe98 setting in the driver). No banding.
>
>  Bob Frost.

I'll risk a guess at a response even though I am using a 2200 -- 
only because I was having the same problem for a while.  I was 
following all the instructions (print space, no color adjustment, 
etc) and always there was a caste...usually green.  I don't remember 
what the "instrucitons" from various books and people were right 
now, but on a lark, I just selected EEM for the print space (rather 
than Adobe or same as source or whatever it was).  Problem 
completely solved.

The R1800 is probably set up differently, but the symptoms seem so 
similar, I thought I would toss out a suggestion in case it works.

Cheers.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Sonny Taylor" 
<st@u...> wrote:
> Bob,
> 
> I am trying to get B/W with matte with my R1800. There is a slight 
green cast,
> which I can almost remove with a Curve, decreasing the Green 
channel from 128
> down to 126. I have also tried Hue/Saturation with a sepia 
foreground with
> Colorize, and then reducing the Saturation to about 2. That warms 
the print up
> a little.
> 
> Could you please explain "using the Adobe98 setting in the 
driver". When
> printing with PS cs, I use my R1800 as the print space, with no 
color

> adjustment. Am I missing something?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Sonny

I'm afraid I must agree with Bob here. After following the
threads on the comparison between the 2200 and the newer
R1800 I was very much inclined on getting the 2200
especially on its QTR support and the ability to print both
b/w and color on one printer.

But then I decided to get the R1800 for the broader color
gammut and the gloss optimizer feature. I still have the
1160s for b/w work. After installing the new cartridge set
and had to use the Auto Nozzle Check and Head Cleaning
feature to get a perfect pattern, I proceeded to create
new color profiles for both the Brilliant Lustre and Innova
Soft Texture papers.

I got the expected beautiful color prints but was very
pleasantly surprised to find virtually no color crossover or
even a hint of metamerism in a b/w print. At least not that
I can visually perceive in various lighting conditions. I
haven't done a side by side comparison of prints from my
quad-tone 1160 and the brand new R1800 but I don't think I
will bother at least for the time being.

Is it possible that the 1.5 picoliter droplet allows the
printer driver to push the black ink much further into the
highlights? Is the printer driver printing black-only
implicitly? I haven't played with it enough to really
understand what's going on but at this point I'm very
much thrilled by the printer's performance. Maybe I
really have a printer that can produce quality duotone
output now.

Again about the Auto Nozzle Check feature. The printer has
a scanner that analyzes the nozzle check pattern and
performs head cleaning if necessary and it really works.
It seems to be able to focus it's cleaning on a particular
head - like cyan in my case - or am I imagining? After it
got the cyan nozzles to print perfectly I found the cyan
ink level in the monitor dropped down quite a bit.

By the way I don't use Adobe98 in the driver setting but
use the convoluted Color-Management:ICM and ICC/ICM: Color
Profile:OFF(No Color Management) using the print space of
the newly created color profiles. This resulted in breath-
takingly beautiful b/w prints. This is really unexpected
from a full color inkset using the Epson driver. I got very
neutral prints for both the gloss-optimized Brilliant
Lustre and the Innova Soft Texture. 

Anyway, this printer is looking very promising.

--nick

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
<bob@f...> wrote:

> Steven,
> 
> You can't condemn all R1800's just because you got a dud! Mine is
> great, for B&W and color (using the Adobe98 setting in the driver). 
> No banding.
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@s...>
> and an
> > 1800 for BW?
> 
> You've got it backwards here: The 1800 does the better color,
> especially with the premium profiles provided by Epson, but is
> worthless for B&W. The one I took back showed at least some banding
> at even the highest quality settings.

I'll concede the point, Bob-having had two 1280s that didn't band 
and two that did(do) it's painfully obvious that the manufacturing 
tolerances aren't as good as they should be. Problem is, at this 
point I've returned so many printers and cashed in so many Taps the 
local CompUsa manager  is about to have a contract put out on me, so 
I don't feel comfortable trying and returning several until I get a 
perfect one. And I am asking a lot of my next printer-I need banding-
free printing on IJ tranny film, and that's a lot tougher, even the 
slightest banding becomes visible on a silver gel print. But I still 
think the 2200 is better for B&W considering the Roark & QTR support 
base-the only advantage the R1800 has is the dual-black and glop 
built in. A fairly significant advantage, I'll admit, but it's also 
been 'dummied down' quite a bit: No black printing of any kind? No 
paper thickness setting lever? 

Nevertheless, if someone runs across one that prints perfectly at 
highest quality settings I'll be happy to buy it from them.

Steve


In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" 
<bob@f...> wrote:
> Steven,
> 
> You can't condemn all R1800's just because you got a dud! Mine is 
great, for 
> B&W and color (using the Adobe98 setting in the driver). No 
banding.

> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@s...>
> and an
> > 1800 for BW?
> 
> You've got it backwards here: The 1800 does the better color,
> especially with the premium profiles provided by Epson, but is
> worthless for B&W. The one I took back showed at least some banding
> at even the highest quality settings.

Print Space is where you select the printer profile, so EEM is the correct
choice for EEM paper.

Steve

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andy" <andy-j1959@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 8:17 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Which would you choose?


I'll risk a guess at a response even though I am using a 2200 -- 
only because I was having the same problem for a while.  I was
following all the instructions (print space, no color adjustment,
etc) and always there was a caste...usually green.  I don't remember
what the "instrucitons" from various books and people were right
now, but on a lark, I just selected EEM for the print space (rather
than Adobe or same as source or whatever it was).  Problem
completely solved.

The R1800 is probably set up differently, but the symptoms seem so
similar, I thought I would toss out a suggestion in case it works.

Cheers.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Sonny Taylor"
<st@u...> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I am trying to get B/W with matte with my R1800. There is a slight
green cast,
> which I can almost remove with a Curve, decreasing the Green
channel from 128
> down to 126. I have also tried Hue/Saturation with a sepia
foreground with
> Colorize, and then reducing the Saturation to about 2. That warms
the print up
> a little.
>
> Could you please explain "using the Adobe98 setting in the
driver". When
> printing with PS cs, I use my R1800 as the print space, with no
color
> adjustment. Am I missing something?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sonny





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Sonny,

Apart from increasing the gamut of the R1800 to 98% of what the printer is 
theoretically capable of (instead of the more usual 80%), Epson have added a 
setting that allows the use of images in Adobe98 without needing icc 
profiles.

You select Same as Source (or Printer Color Management?) in the PS dialog, 
and then select ColorControls/AdobeRGB in the Epson driver.

All explained in the following article from Epson -

http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/tech_news/tnl0411single.pdf

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Sonny Taylor" <st@...>
>
> I am trying to get B/W with matte with my R1800. There is a slight green 
> cast,
> which I can almost remove with a Curve, decreasing the Green channel from 
> 128
> down to 126. I have also tried Hue/Saturation with a sepia foreground with
> Colorize, and then reducing the Saturation to about 2. That warms the 
> print up
> a little.
>
> Could you please explain "using the Adobe98 setting in the driver". When
> printing with PS cs, I use my R1800 as the print space, with no color
> adjustment. Am I missing something?

Personally I would be wary of the value of that article. The fact that the
colour conversion engine embedded in a printer driver has been improved says
nothing of whether it now exceeds the colour conversion engine embedded in
Photoshop.  It has been, and likely still is, advisable to not use the
driver colour engine but rather PS's and send a file to the driver with "no
colour management".  The printer can't reproduce 1:1 Adobe RGB - it, as the
article acknowledges, has its own colour gamut.  They are simply making the
implementation of ICC profiles and colour management a little easier for
novice users by taking it internally.

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 09:04:08 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Which would you choose?
> 
> Sonny,
> 
> Apart from increasing the gamut of the R1800 to 98% of what the printer is
> theoretically capable of (instead of the more usual 80%), Epson have added a
> setting that allows the use of images in Adobe98 without needing icc
> profiles.
> 
> You select Same as Source (or Printer Color Management?) in the PS dialog,
> and then select ColorControls/AdobeRGB in the Epson driver.
> 
> All explained in the following article from Epson -
> 
> http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/tech_news/tnl0411single.pdf
> 
> Bob Frost.
>

Steve,

I know that; all I'm saying is that, using that setting, I get very good 
color and B&W prints from the R1800.

Your advice only holds true if you have or can make a better profile than 
that built in to the Windows driver (I have no experience of the Mac 
driver). Of course, if you are using non-Epson papers you will need a 
profile. But I doubt if any profile I can make with an i1Photo and iMatch 
will give better results on Epson paper than the R1800 has as standard.

Now with my old 1290 and 2100 it was a different story; neither of them were 
very good out-of-the-box, and I had to make profiles even for the Epson 
papers. And that wasn't easy.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>


 The printer can't reproduce 1:1 Adobe RGB - it, as the
article acknowledges, has its own colour gamut.  They are simply making the
implementation of ICC profiles and colour management a little easier for
novice users by taking it internally.

Don't get me wrong - I am tempted to buy the printer for colour work
(particularly on semi-matte).  But I would not be buying it for its colour
engine  ;-)  But I have decided to hold off and see what the new release
Epson printers have in store first.  I am disappointed that the rumours
suggest no gloss optimizer (or something to that effect).  I'm hoping that
the so called K3 inks are better than the UCs and not just the UCs with 3
shades of K.

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:38:27 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Which would you choose?
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I know that; all I'm saying is that, using that setting, I get very good
> color and B&W prints from the R1800.
> 
> Your advice only holds true if you have or can make a better profile than
> that built in to the Windows driver (I have no experience of the Mac
> driver). Of course, if you are using non-Epson papers you will need a
> profile. But I doubt if any profile I can make with an i1Photo and iMatch
> will give better results on Epson paper than the R1800 has as standard.
> 
> Now with my old 1290 and 2100 it was a different story; neither of them were
> very good out-of-the-box, and I had to make profiles even for the Epson
> papers. And that wasn't easy.
> 
> Bob Frost.

Nick;


> I got the expected beautiful color prints but was very
> pleasantly surprised to find virtually no color crossover or
> even a hint of metamerism in a b/w print. At least not that
> I can visually perceive in various lighting conditions. 

What it looks like is not the only concern; though its becoming less 
of an issue, lifespan will most likely be less if there are color 
inks involved. Even if only one or two of the inks a little weaker 
than the rest, you will get color shift at some point in the future.


 Is the printer driver printing black-only
> implicitly? 

Not a chance! If you hava a 10x loupe handy, take a look at one of 
your B&W prints, you'll see color ink dots, guarranteed. While 
you're at it, look for traces of banding & get back to me on that, 
please? I have it in my mind to go back and try the demo unit, it 
would be encouraging to have another report of perfect banding free 
prints.

> By the way I don't use Adobe98 in the driver setting but
> use the convoluted Color-Management:ICM and ICC/ICM: Color
> Profile:OFF(No Color Management) using the print space of
> the newly created color profiles. This resulted in breath-
> takingly beautiful b/w prints. This is really unexpected
> from a full color inkset using the Epson driver. 

This is the way I set it up also, but using the premium profiles 
supplied with the printer driver. I got very good color, but only 
fair (but workable) B&W. Even with those profiles there was almost 
no crossover; I think doutones should be quite easy; in fact both my 
glossy and EEM B&W tests looked like nice doutones, one cool, the 
other warm...

Enjoy, & I'll keep you posted on which way I go with this. I hope by 
tomorrow to be eating my (negative) words, that would make me very 
happy.

Steve Karafyllakis

Print a step wedge and take a look with a loupe.  At what step do you see
colour dots?

> From: "Nick H. Nugent" <nghin@...>

> 
> Is it possible that the 1.5 picoliter droplet allows the
> printer driver to push the black ink much further into the
> highlights?

Steve/Nick

Haven't checked on the R1800 yet, but the smaller R800 uses color inks all 
the way from 15/15/15 to 255/255/255. Black ink stopped being used at about 
halfway. When I get some spare time, I'll check the R1800. I don't think you 
will see anything much with a loupe, the dots are so small and overlapping. 
I tried using a microscope and gave up; far simpler to look at the printer 
files to see what is happening.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>


Print a step wedge and take a look with a loupe.  At what step do you see
colour dots?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
"Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@s...wrote: Nick;

> ... you will get color shift at some point in
> the future.

Yes. Nothing beats pure carbon for b/w. What I'm
waiting for is QTR support for this printer so I can
try out black-only on it.

> > Is the printer driver printing black-only
> > implicitly?

> Not a chance! If you hava a 10x loupe handy, take a
> look at one of your B&W prints, you'll see color ink
> dots, guarranteed. While you're at it, look for
> traces of banding & get back to me on that, please? I
> have it in my mind to go back and try the demo unit,
> it would be encouraging to have another report of
> perfect banding free prints.

I think you're right. Bob Frost has confirmed this,
too, that color inks are indeed used from 15/15/15
through 255/255/255 in the R800. I suspect the same
thing is true for R1800.

But banding ... no, absolutely no banding, and not
even dots under a loupe. Bob said he even had
trouble finding them using a microscope  :)  This
saved me a trip to a local Adolph Gasser camera
store to use one of their magnifiers.

But as I wrote earlier I did have some trouble with
the cyan nozzles until I used the new Auto Head
Cleaning procedure. This was reported by another
user and Epson Tech said they had no idea why.
Missing cyan nozzles would definitely give banding.

> Enjoy, & I'll keep you posted on which way I go with
> this. I hope by tomorrow to be eating my (negative)
> words, that would make me very happy.

I hope so, too. Are you getting your printer from
CompUSA again? A local Calumet store happened to have
several in stock so I picked up mine from there.

--nick

Epson doesn't want Joe Consumer printing with only one ink so they  
killed the ability to print BO with their drivers for the R800/1800  
printers.

On May 9, 2005, at 8:43 PM, Drime wrote:

> Newbie (that would be me) find this confusing. Thought BO printing
> precludes the use of QTR. If one is using only one ink why would one
> need QTR or any other rip?
>
> Please explain.
>
> Thanks
>
> Drime
>
> On May 9, 2005, at 12:53 PM, Nick H. Nugent wrote:
>
>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
>>  "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@s...wrote: Nick;
>>
>>
>>> ... you will get color shift at some point in
>>> the future.
>>>
>>
>>  Yes. Nothing beats pure carbon for b/w. What I'm
>>  waiting for is QTR support for this printer so I can
>>  try out black-only on it.
>>
>>

Nick;

Yes, they unfortunately have my money captive on a gift card. I 
spent the day on this again; I talked the floor manager out of the 
demo unit for 3-4 hours without going through the sales rigamarole, 
though she did keep my gift card hostage for the duration. No joy, 
I'm afraid. This one looks beautiful too on paper, but exhibits a 
slightly different kind of banding that is so subtle that you don't 
see it until you look at the silver gel contact print with good 
light and a little (3x) magnification. In the meantime, I've 
replaced the R300 with an R200, and it does the job just fine, thank 
you very much. And that is a $99 printer, $70 after the rebate. Too 
bad its only letter size, or I'd have what I need for this 
particular use.

   Steve Karafyllakis

>Are you getting your printer from
> CompUSA again? A local Calumet store happened to have
> several in stock so I picked up mine from there.
> 
> --nick

Newbie (that would be me) find this confusing. Thought BO printing 
precludes the use of QTR. If one is using only one ink why would one 
need QTR or any other rip?

Please explain.

Thanks

Drime

On May 9, 2005, at 12:53 PM, Nick H. Nugent wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
>  "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@s...wrote: Nick;
>
>  > ... you will get color shift at some point in
>  > the future.
>
>  Yes. Nothing beats pure carbon for b/w. What I'm
>  waiting for is QTR support for this printer so I can
>  try out black-only on it.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Agreed

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:20:33 +0200
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Which would you choose? (2200/R1800 - B/W)
> 
> Get the 2400 I would say.
> 
> Ernst
>

Get the 2400 I would say.

Ernst