Digital BW, The Print

Hello All,

A few days ago I mentioned the Innova Fiba Photo paper (IFP).  It's
very good and renders Eboni ink quite warm, similar to EEM and PR. 
It's the thickest alpha cellulose paper I've tested, most luxurious
feel of them all - only drawback is a pronounced curvature.  Excellent
Dmax and very smooth surface that makes BO look smoother.  Top notch
paper.  

However, I prefer a more neutral tone and so have been trying other
samples.  Here's what I found so far:

Legion Photo Matte (LPM) - nice cool tone similar to Condor, excellent
Dmax, smooth hard surface which makes BO prints look smoother, but has
two drawbacks: a blueish cold-white paper color that is a bit harsh
and unattractive, and it compresses the low shadow zones beyond what
can be rescued with a curve - requires a lot of fiddling and you never
quite get what you want.  Frustrating to use because of this.

Kayenta Photo Matte by Moab (KPM)- THE WINNER!  Has all the positive
attributes of LPM, with a slightly warmer, very attractive paper color
and actually opens up the shadow zones a bit more than EEM.  There's
more: it has a contrast curve very close to EEM, which means we can
print directly to it without adjustment curves.  It's also 2-sided,
lies perfectly flat, and is relatively inexpensive ($19.95/50 at
Adorama).  Has a fine balance between ink and paper color, and is
producing beautiful prints. Been using it for 2 days now and am
delighted.  Is proving to be economical in time as well as $.

Green Pix by Red River (GPX) - slightly cooler than EEM but still
looks warm, lower contrast so will need an adjustment curve.  Not
as nice a balance between ink/paper colors.  Good Dmax, but not
excellent.  Surface not as smooth, so BO prints look grainier.  Does
not make my A-List.

Grayhawk I by Hawk Mtn (GHK) - Ditto everything said about GPX.  Very
close match.
-------------------------------

So the two winners IMO are Innova Fiba for warm tone and Moab Kayenta
for cool tone.

I also did some research on alpha cellulose paper and found this web
site with a good concise explanation of what it is and why it's
considered as archival as cotton papers:

  http://www.artpaper.com/news.html

Here's a quote:

"High Alpha Cellulose - a very pure form of wood pulp which is
considered to have the same longevity as cotton or other plant
fibers."


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Are you now more motiviated to use Alpha Cellulose paper versus 
cotten for most applications?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> A few days ago I mentioned the Innova Fiba Photo paper (IFP).  It's
> very good and renders Eboni ink quite warm, similar to EEM and PR. 
> It's the thickest alpha cellulose paper I've tested, most luxurious
> feel of them all - only drawback is a pronounced curvature.  
Excellent
> Dmax and very smooth surface that makes BO look smoother.  Top notch
> paper.  
> 
> However, I prefer a more neutral tone and so have been trying other
> samples.  Here's what I found so far:
> 
> Legion Photo Matte (LPM) - nice cool tone similar to Condor, 
excellent
> Dmax, smooth hard surface which makes BO prints look smoother, but 
has
> two drawbacks: a blueish cold-white paper color that is a bit harsh
> and unattractive, and it compresses the low shadow zones beyond what
> can be rescued with a curve - requires a lot of fiddling and you 
never
> quite get what you want.  Frustrating to use because of this.
> 
> Kayenta Photo Matte by Moab (KPM)- THE WINNER!  Has all the positive
> attributes of LPM, with a slightly warmer, very attractive paper 
color
> and actually opens up the shadow zones a bit more than EEM.  There's
> more: it has a contrast curve very close to EEM, which means we can
> print directly to it without adjustment curves.  It's also 2-sided,
> lies perfectly flat, and is relatively inexpensive ($19.95/50 at
> Adorama).  Has a fine balance between ink and paper color, and is
> producing beautiful prints. Been using it for 2 days now and am
> delighted.  Is proving to be economical in time as well as $.
> 
> Green Pix by Red River (GPX) - slightly cooler than EEM but still
> looks warm, lower contrast so will need an adjustment curve.  Not
> as nice a balance between ink/paper colors.  Good Dmax, but not
> excellent.  Surface not as smooth, so BO prints look grainier.  Does
> not make my A-List.
> 
> Grayhawk I by Hawk Mtn (GHK) - Ditto everything said about GPX.  
Very
> close match.
> -------------------------------
> 
> So the two winners IMO are Innova Fiba for warm tone and Moab 
Kayenta

> for cool tone.
> 
> I also did some research on alpha cellulose paper and found this web
> site with a good concise explanation of what it is and why it's
> considered as archival as cotton papers:
> 
>   http://www.artpaper.com/news.html
> 
> Here's a quote:
> 
> "High Alpha Cellulose - a very pure form of wood pulp which is
> considered to have the same longevity as cotton or other plant
> fibers."
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello David,

>Are you now more motiviated to use Alpha Cellulose paper versus 
>cotten for most applications?

Well, yes and no.  It depends on what you mean by "most".  Now that
I'm finally accepting that they are as long lasting as cotton I'm
using them more for some things.  For example I'm working on a big
scrapbook project for my church, lots and lots of small prints, and am
now switching everything over to AC for that, because it's thinner and
cheaper and will be viewed through sleeved pages.  Also, when I take
snapshots and want to give friends a print, they will certainly be on
either Kayanta or Fiba.

But if they're hand held (and I am planning to market some boxed
portfolio sets), there's nothing like the richness of a cotton paper.
There is also a wide range of effects from the various papers, and I
regularly use 4 or 5 diferent ones, depending on which suits an image
best.  Shifting to AC would reduce the choices (at the current state
of affairs).  So for the time being all my signed fine art prints will
remain on cotton.

But that could change. One factor for me, because I print primarily
BO, is that certain images that don't work as well with BO on cotton
look much smoother on AC and look fine.  Also, I recently printed an
image on Photo Rag and on Fiba, and from two feet away couldn't tell
the difference.  So things are certainly getting more interesting.
Exciting times.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello David,
> 
> >Are you now more motiviated to use Alpha Cellulose paper versus 
> >cotten for most applications?
> 
> Well, yes and no.  It depends on what you mean by "most".  Now that
> I'm finally accepting that they are as long lasting as cotton I'm
> using them more for some things.

I think it's important to remember that none of the darkroom papers we
all used for many years, and considered "archival", were cotton. Not
even the platinum papers were, to my knowledge, excepting of course
contemporary printmakers choosing cotton papers to coat.
Of course there are many factors affecting longevity besides the sheet
in all these different processes, and untill a few decades (at least)
of ink prints are out there it's difficult to assume much.
It makes me feel better to say the prints are on rag, but I'm no so
sure it means much beyond that.
Tyler

Hello Tyler,

>I think it's important to remember that none of the darkroom papers
we
>all used for many years, and considered "archival", were cotton. 

Yes, it's so easy to slip into a mindset about something.  When I got
into this cotton was king and I adapted that without question.  My
first response to hearing about AC papers was suspicion.  Now that
I've finally accepted and turned to have a look my printing life has
suddenly been enriched.  Broader horizons, new dimensions, whatever
you want to call it, it's great.  Kayenta and Fiba are the cream
rising to the top - really fine papers.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I think it is a good point that the traditional Fiber B&W papers are not 100% cotton BUT 
also remember that they have only been in use for how long?  100YR's maybee.  So, who 
knows how archival they will prove to be.  Here is an excerpt from a great site on Artist 
Materials:

"Lignins comprise 20 to 30 percent of wood, but only 1 percent of cotton fibers. Because 
of the high concentration of lignins in wood, papers made from wood pulp discolor and 
eventually self-destruct. Although there are methods for the removal of most or all of the 
lignins, unless the residual chemicals used in these processes are also dealt with, 
embrittlement and acidification will only be postponed. For this reason, wood-pulp papers 
are generally avoided for perma nent artwork. Because it is nearly lignin-free, paper made 
from 100 percent cot ton is most desirable. The recently developed process for the 
removal of all lignins is being used at this time primarily to manufacture boards and 
storage containers used in archives, in conservation, and in museum-style framing."

Taken from this page: http://www.trueart.info/paper_chemistry.htm

and on the same site there is an interesting history on paper here:

http://www.trueart.info/paper.htm

So, given the choice, 100% Cotton would be the safest, most tested archival material to 
use

Tariq


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:

> Hello Tyler,
> 
> >I think it's important to remember that none of the darkroom papers
> we
> >all used for many years, and considered "archival", were cotton. 
> 
> Yes, it's so easy to slip into a mindset about something.  When I got
> into this cotton was king and I adapted that without question.  My
> first response to hearing about AC papers was suspicion.  Now that
> I've finally accepted and turned to have a look my printing life has
> suddenly been enriched.  Broader horizons, new dimensions, whatever
> you want to call it, it's great.  Kayenta and Fiba are the cream
> rising to the top - really fine papers.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I feel the same way these days about Alpha Cellulose. The Innova Soft 
Texture and the Innova Cold Press are as far as I can tell right now, the finest 
inkjet papers I've ever run across. They are just killer with both quad inksets 
and Ultrachrome. And, right, all the Ilford Gallerie, Agfa Portriga, and Kodak 
Kodabromide we used in years past were all high grade wood pulp, none of 
them cotton rag. 

I just saw a fantastic show in New York this week called First Seen, at the 
Dahesh gallery. It was a giant show of 19th century photography from the very 
beginnings of the medium, when Hill and Adamson,  O Sullivan, Curtis, WH 
Jackson, Hilyers, Talbot, Francis Frith, Muybridge, etc, etc, made their 
journeys . It is an amazing show of some of the oldest albumen and kallotype 
photographs in existence  of places that were never photographed before 
these people made their glass plate and paper negatives there.

These photographs were done from the the 1840's - aprox 1870 and I can't 
remember any of them being stained or faded that weren't glued in albums.  I 
certainly can't imagine their celluslose paper had the testing and quality 
inspection that the best papers of today have. These prints looked spectacular 
after all this time ( and they didn't even spray em). 

John

Hello Tariq,

>Here is an excerpt from a great site on Artist Materials:
>Taken from this page: http://www.trueart.info/paper_chemistry.htm

>So, given the choice, 100% Cotton would be the safest, most tested 
>archival material to use


I went to that site to have a look, and found this at the top and
bottom of the article:

"(Excerpts from ART HARDWARE: The Definitive Guide to Artists' 
 Materials, by Steven Saitzyk © 1987)"

That was written 18 years ago.  When I did some research the other day
I found several sites saying in effect that modern techniques reduce
the pulp to pure cellulose, which is basically what cotton is, and has
the same longevity.  Enter it in google and see what comes up.  Here
are a couple of sample quotes:

"Today there is a process designed to isolate the cellulose from the
wood resins to produce "high alpha cellulose" which promises to be
comparable to most rag papers in longevity."

"High Alpha Cellulose: A very pure form of wood pulp which is
considered to have the same longevity as cotton or other plant
fibers."

I also found a lot of material similar to the one you quoted, but the
ones that had dates were all older.  I even found a site that had
industry standards, but even the latest standards were last revised in
2000.  I've had several conversations over the past months with the
tech people at some of the inkjet paper companies, and they all say
the word they're getting from the manufacturers where they buy their
stock is that new technology is advancing and the new AC papers are
essentially pure cellulose without any lignen.

Maybe you are right in that we probably won't know for sure for
another 200 years or so.  But with the fast pace of technology today,
I think these new papers are not something we have to worry about.

I'm also being told similar things about OBAs, that the technology has
improved and the modern stuff doesn't have the same adverse effects.

So who do we believe in all this?  Are they outright lying or
stretching the truth?  We each have to make up our own mind I guess. 
One drawback about the web is that old information is still floating
around out there, so we have to do our research carefully.  But you
are certainly correct that 100% cotton is the safest choice - you
can't go wrong using that.  One big question in my mind, though, is
what about the coatings?  I hardly ever see that discussed.  


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> One big question in my mind, though, is
> what about the coatings?  I hardly ever see that discussed.  
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 


If the coating is garbage, then the paper stock certainly doesn't 
matter very much. More information on the specific coatings would be 
great, but I have a feeling that this info is closely guarded, since 
it can be the difference between an average paper and a great paper.

I've been using wood pulp papers for the last 6+ years, and even 
found a roll of old German Etching from that long ago. When I 
compared the paper and recent prints from the old roll, and the 
newest roll of the same, there was no difference. The paper had not 
changed one bit in that 6+ year span. Given this was not a very long 
time span, but it gives encouragement that the paper is pretty good.

Point well taken Clayton.  I do use some Alpha Cellulose papers such as German Etching 
for production type work and might consider it for my personal work as it is really nice.  I 
have read conflicting information on the German Etching which states that it is 100% Alpha 
Cellulose acid free and ohter info that it is 75% cotton and 25% Alpha Cellulose acid free.  
And even more confusing is the fact that is is labeled as "natural" white but with Optical 
Brightners.  In any case, it is a nice paper.  Appaerently, MediaStreet sells the same stuff 
under the Royal Plush name AND they have had it tested by Wilhelm to at least 100 years 
with their inks so that looks encouraging.  No doubt the technology is advancing at a very 
fast pace but Wilhelm is pretty down on the use of Optical Brightners and most other 
papers with Optical Brightners tested by Wilhelm such as Sommerset Velvet for Epson have 
about half the fade resistance as say UltraSmooth with B&W work.  How much of that is 
due to the Optical Brightners and How much to the coating used is a big question.  It is 
notable that Premier states the following for their new Luster Rag paper:

"A high quality digital inkjet paper acid free base made of 100% cotton rag. Fine art 
photographers, artists, and archivists are all interested in archival prints that will last 
generations.  Traditionally, the most durable substrate for this market is paper made from 
100% cotton.  Cotton fiber is up to 10 times stronger than cellulous and naturally acid and 
lignin free. Luster Rag paper is 2% archival buffered to give added protection against 
contaminants."

This is almost verbatim to the info on the site I posted and one of the key ideas is that 
Cotton is naturally acid and lignin free where as the Alpha Cellulose papers have high 
lignin and acid content which must be removed through other chemical processes which 
could leave their own harmful residues.  So the question to me becomes "why take the 
chance?"  For the manufacturers, the Reason is clearly a matter of Cost Savings in using 
cheaper Wood Pulp vs. more expensive Cotton.  

It is encouraging that some manufactuers are now stateing that the coatings used are acid 
free but the only real way to be somewhat confident in the acrchival qualities of a 
particular paper/ink combo is Wilhelm or a Time machine.  

Tariq

 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:

> Hello Tariq,
> 
> >Here is an excerpt from a great site on Artist Materials:
> >Taken from this page: http://www.trueart.info/paper_chemistry.htm
> 
> >So, given the choice, 100% Cotton would be the safest, most tested 
> >archival material to use
> 
> 
> I went to that site to have a look, and found this at the top and
> bottom of the article:
> 
> "(Excerpts from ART HARDWARE: The Definitive Guide to Artists' 
>  Materials, by Steven Saitzyk © 1987)"
> 
> That was written 18 years ago.  When I did some research the other day
> I found several sites saying in effect that modern techniques reduce
> the pulp to pure cellulose, which is basically what cotton is, and has
> the same longevity.  Enter it in google and see what comes up.  Here
> are a couple of sample quotes:
> 
> "Today there is a process designed to isolate the cellulose from the
> wood resins to produce "high alpha cellulose" which promises to be
> comparable to most rag papers in longevity."
> 
> "High Alpha Cellulose: A very pure form of wood pulp which is
> considered to have the same longevity as cotton or other plant
> fibers."
> 
> I also found a lot of material similar to the one you quoted, but the
> ones that had dates were all older.  I even found a site that had
> industry standards, but even the latest standards were last revised in
> 2000.  I've had several conversations over the past months with the
> tech people at some of the inkjet paper companies, and they all say
> the word they're getting from the manufacturers where they buy their
> stock is that new technology is advancing and the new AC papers are
> essentially pure cellulose without any lignen.
> 
> Maybe you are right in that we probably won't know for sure for
> another 200 years or so.  But with the fast pace of technology today,
> I think these new papers are not something we have to worry about.
> 
> I'm also being told similar things about OBAs, that the technology has
> improved and the modern stuff doesn't have the same adverse effects.
> 
> So who do we believe in all this?  Are they outright lying or
> stretching the truth?  We each have to make up our own mind I guess. 
> One drawback about the web is that old information is still floating
> around out there, so we have to do our research carefully.  But you
> are certainly correct that 100% cotton is the safest choice - you
> can't go wrong using that.  One big question in my mind, though, is
> what about the coatings?  I hardly ever see that discussed.  
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hi Clayton.

That's one big question in my mind as well. I don't think Wilhelm can
say much about the coating issues so we're left guessing. Gelatine has
been around long enough for generic historical data to acrue but who
can say anything about undocumented proprietary coatings.

No one really knows whether or not something like the disaster that
occurred with early RC coatings might lay on the moderate to far horizon.

Fortunately, in my case, I don't expect anything of mine to be found
hanging in the loo--oops I meant Louvre (I already know of at least
one that ended up in the former on a wall)-- so it is probably of
little consequence to me. Nevertheless, it would be reassuring to
think my prints might at least outlast my children's lives.

Best
Duane


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<  One big question in my mind, though, is

> what about the coatings?  I hardly ever see that discussed.  
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Duane,

>it would be reassuring to think my prints might at least outlast my 
>children's lives.

Yup. Would be nice.  But pure carbon ink and 100% cotton paper won't
mean much if in 50 years or so your great-grandchild slams the door
hard enough to rattle the wall and the coating dissolves into a pile
of powder at the bottom of the frame.  

On the other hand, if that starts happening the word will get around
and folks will re-photograph and print anything they want to preserve,
just as we do today with real old stuff.  But when it comes to
valuable original prints by famous artists...could mean some real
unhappy folks down the line.

All speculation of course...we just don't know much.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton Jones wrote:

>Hello Tyler,
>
>  
>
>>I think it's important to remember that none of the darkroom papers
>>    
>>
>we
>  
>
>>all used for many years, and considered "archival", were cotton. 
>>    
>>
>
>Yes, it's so easy to slip into a mindset about something.  When I got
>into this cotton was king and I adapted that without question.  My
>first response to hearing about AC papers was suspicion.  Now that
>I've finally accepted and turned to have a look my printing life has
>suddenly been enriched.  Broader horizons, new dimensions, whatever
>you want to call it, it's great.  Kayenta and Fiba are the cream
>rising to the top - really fine papers.
>
>Regards,
>Clayton
>  
>
Thirty years ago I came across some information about papers specially 
made for books that should last long. The Penrose Annual Vol 68 1975 has 
an article on Culter Guard Bridge's Archive Long Life Text paper. The 
Library of Congress approved that paper for books that should last. 
Since then I have used both Alpha Cellulose and Rag paper without 
hesitation as long as the sizing had some buffering against acidic 
contamination as well. So I printed many serigraphs on Hahnemuhle's 
passepartout paper that has much similarity to the German Etching substrate.

In the thirty years passed the myth about superiority of rag papers 
hasn't changed and it will not change in the next thirty years. If a 
customer insists on rag paper use he gets rag paper and I will not 
discuss it.

Coatings is another matter but coatings are an issue in offset printing 
as well. I'm more concerned about the bond between the coating and the 
paper than about the paper quality itself.  Wilhelm should test the bond 
of paper coating like it is done for book papers in offset printing: 
folding tests etc. They do not need the same properties but some degree 
of physical strength is a must. Yellowing occurs in coatings when they 
get contaminated by air or by tape glue, loose the OBA fluorescence etc, 
we have seen the reports, sealing and/or framing of the print is 
probably the only solution. The silkscreen papers had no coating, sizing 
an hot calendering made the difference in print quality that was not at 
inkjet level anyway.

Your Fiba has OBAs though, better test that in the sun to see what it 
looks like in some years. Could still be nice though.

Ernst

Hello Ernst,

>>Kayenta and Fiba are the cream rising to the top - really fine 
>>papers.

>Thirty years ago I came across some information about papers
>specially made for books...Library of Congress approved that 
>paper...Since then I have used both Alpha Cellulose and Rag paper 
>without hesitation as long as the sizing had some buffering...
>In the thirty years passed the myth about superiority of rag 
>papers hasn't changed and it will not change in the next thirty 
>years. 

I think that will be true, and it's understandable.  We are constantly
barraged with so much exaggerated hype for products that one has to be
skeptical just to survive.  In this case it took a lot of my own
research before I would accept it.  And of course even now I really
don't know, but am just accepting some published information.  On the
other hand I do have some silver prints that have been around for 20
years and still bright white (I even put one outdoors for a total of
about 30 hours in direct full Florida sun).
 

>Coatings is another matter...I'm more concerned about the bond
>between the coating and the paper than about the paper quality 
>itself....Wilhelm should test the bond of paper coating...

Yes.



>Your Fiba has OBAs though, better test that in the sun to see what 
>it looks like in some years. Could still be nice though.

Already have some on the windowsill, will be adding Kayenta today.

I've also done some research on OBAs and am not so worried about that.
I've had a variety of papers around (PR, Condor, Merlin, etc.), in
sun and under fluorescent lights, for 3+ years now and all I've seen
turn yellow is EEM.  Only other thing I've seen is some slight
lessening of brightness, not what I'd call change of color.  The
change is even across the prints and they don't look degraded in any
way.  Only way to tell is put them next to a new sheet.  I haven't
seen any of the patchy horrible yellowing described in the worst
predictions.  I've been told that the technology has improved
enormously and it's not the issue it once was. And of course there are
those 20 year old silver prints that are still bright white.  Surely
they have OBAs.  So I'm just not too worried about it.  I guess time
will tell.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm