Digital BW, The Print

Hi all,
does anyone has news about this new model to share ? seems still in
the rumour and pre-announcement stage !? Just was on the way to buy
4000 when the dealer told me to wait until end of month. (Singapore).
cheers
Sven

Hi Sven:

     I have not found any information about the Epson 4800 printer 
on an official Epson site.  However, I have been able to put together 
from some web searching a bit of sketchy information about the 4800 
and four additional printer models that Epson supposedly will be 
offering for sale soon.

     The new printers and their suggested retail prices reportedly will be:

13 inches wide:  R2400:     US$ 849 
17 inches wide:  Pro 4800:  US$1995 
24 inches wide:  Pro 7800:  US$2995 
44 inches wide:  Pro 9800:  US$4995
size unknown:     4400:  price unknown

     The new inkset used by the new printers (except the oddball 4400) 
will be:  Matte Black, Photo Black, Light Black, "Light Light" Black, Cyan, 
Light Cyan, Magenta, Light Magenta, and Yellow.

     The oddball 4400 reportedly will use Matte Black, Cyan, Magenta 
and Yellow.95

     I saw mention made suggesting that the new printers may be 
available in Europe sometime soon.

     The above comprises virtually all of the information that I have so 
far been able to find online about the new printers.


     . . . Fred


_____________________________________________________________


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Sven Hafner" 
<sven.hafner@g...> WROTE:
> Hi all,
> does anyone has news about this new model to share ? seems still in
> the rumour and pre-announcement stage !? Just was on the way to buy
> 4000 when the dealer told me to wait until end of month. (Singapore).
> cheers
> Sven


.
.
.
.

This is the only "official" Epson site I've found that is listing  
info on the 4800 and 2400 (Russian):
http://www.epson.ru/sp4800

On May 9, 2005, at 10:29 AM, bioecologist wrote:

> Hi Sven:
>
>      I have not found any information about the Epson 4800 printer
> on an official Epson site.  However, I have been able to put together
> from some web searching a bit of sketchy information about the 4800
> and four additional printer models that Epson supposedly will be
> offering for sale soon.
>
>      The new printers and their suggested retail prices reportedly  
> will be:
>
> 13 inches wide:  R2400:     US$ 849
> 17 inches wide:  Pro 4800:  US$1995
> 24 inches wide:  Pro 7800:  US$2995
> 44 inches wide:  Pro 9800:  US$4995
> size unknown:     4400:  price unknown
>
>      The new inkset used by the new printers (except the oddball 4400)
> will be:  Matte Black, Photo Black, Light Black, "Light Light"  
> Black, Cyan,
> Light Cyan, Magenta, Light Magenta, and Yellow.
>
>      The oddball 4400 reportedly will use Matte Black, Cyan, Magenta
> and Yellow.95
>
>      I saw mention made suggesting that the new printers may be
> available in Europe sometime soon.
>
>      The above comprises virtually all of the information that I  
> have so
> far been able to find online about the new printers.
>
>
>      . . . Fred
>

At 11:21 -0400 9.5.2005, Carl Schofield wrote:
*******************************************

>This is the only "official" Epson site I've found that is listing 
>info on the 4800 and 2400 (Russian):
>http://www.epson.ru/sp4800

And there is information that the inkset is identical to R1800

Funny

:o)

M.
--

That's not what I am hearing....I'm hearing redesigned UCs.  But I guess we
will have to wait and see!  More info later this week apparently.

> From: Martin Sluka <martin.sluka@...>

> 
> And there is information that the inkset is identical to R1800
> 
> Funny
> 
> :o)
> 
> M.
> -- 
> 
>

Hi

I pulled the Epson 4400/4800 pdf manual from the Epson UK site before
someone noticed the goof :-)

Various info from it and other sources at:
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson4800.html

includes the info on inks and cartidge product codes and driver B/W settings

bye for now

Keith Cooper

I'll chime in here.  After talking to the Epson people in Singapore 
I gathered that the 4800 will be 3 picolitre printer.  I was also 
told that the inkset would not be the same as the one being used by 
the 1800 ( I need to confirm this ink part again to be certain). 
I'll post more when I get more info.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bioecologist" 
<bioecologist@y...> wrote:
> Hi Sven:
> 
>      I have not found any information about the Epson 4800 printer 
> on an official Epson site.  However, I have been able to put 
together 
> from some web searching a bit of sketchy information about the 
4800 
> and four additional printer models that Epson supposedly will be 
> offering for sale soon.
> 
>      The new printers and their suggested retail prices reportedly 
will be:
> 
> 13 inches wide:  R2400:     US$ 849 
> 17 inches wide:  Pro 4800:  US$1995 
> 24 inches wide:  Pro 7800:  US$2995 
> 44 inches wide:  Pro 9800:  US$4995
> size unknown:     4400:  price unknown
> 
>      The new inkset used by the new printers (except the oddball 
4400) 
> will be:  Matte Black, Photo Black, Light Black, "Light Light" 
Black, Cyan, 
> Light Cyan, Magenta, Light Magenta, and Yellow.
> 
>      The oddball 4400 reportedly will use Matte Black, Cyan, 
Magenta 
> and Yellow.95
> 
>      I saw mention made suggesting that the new printers may be 
> available in Europe sometime soon.
> 
>      The above comprises virtually all of the information that I 
have so 
> far been able to find online about the new printers.
> 
> 
>      . . . Fred
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Sven Hafner" 
> <sven.hafner@g...> WROTE:
> > Hi all,
> > does anyone has news about this new model to share ? seems still 
in
> > the rumour and pre-announcement stage !? Just was on the way to 
buy
> > 4000 when the dealer told me to wait until end of month. 
(Singapore).

> > cheers
> > Sven
> 
> 
> .
> .
> .
> .

Check out:

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/News/May05/Epson%202400.htm

Peter

At 01:12 +0000 10.5.2005, joemulligan_68 wrote:
*******************************************

>After talking to the Epson people in Singapore

Interesting - Russian Epson says the same.

Two variants (different inkset for Russian and Asian market)?

Two changeable inksets?

Martin

--

Here's the scoop

http://tinyurl.com/7j5x9



Roy

Well, apparently they finally did it, added a real light black to the mix and 
speeded up the printer. What is this going to do to independent monochrome 
ink manufacturers? I guess only time will tell. I don't see how they can support 
all the various inksets for all these printers, but it hasn't stopped them in the 
past.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Roy <
thinkgreen@s...> wrote:

> 
> Here's the scoop
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/7j5x9
> 
> 
> 
> Roy

Oops.

My email filters acted up and I didn't see the previous posts concerning 
these printers. I'm a little disappointed in the 3.5 pico size of ink on 
the 2400.

Peace

Roy

Are they all REALLY different? Could be just marketing.
Mark

On May 10, 2005, at 10:08 AM, john dean wrote:

> I don't see how they can support
> all the various inksets for all these printers

I would be very curious on a comment from Jon Cone on Epson's claim  
for great black and white from new printers with K3 inks.
Has anyone seen results from them?

Mark

My understanding is that the "light" inks make up for the drop size.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Roy 
<thinkgreen@s...> wrote:
> Oops.
> 
> My email filters acted up and I didn't see the previous posts 
concerning 
> these printers. I'm a little disappointed in the 3.5 pico size of ink 
on 

> the 2400.
> 
> Peace
> 
> Roy

...and of course can one use current profiling technology with all those
eight inks.

Richard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john
> dean
> Sent: 10 May 2005 15:09
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Printers announced by Epson
> 
> Well, apparently they finally did it, added a real light black to the mix
> and
> speeded up the printer. What is this going to do to independent monochrome
> ink manufacturers? I guess only time will tell. I don't see how they can
> support
> all the various inksets for all these printers, but it hasn't stopped them
> in the
> past.


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Why not?  All you are doing when profiling is determining the boundaries of
the print space.  There is likely more than enough greyscale patches in
today's test charts.  Else you can be assured that new ones will be
available tout suite.

> From: Richard <richard@...-bulldog.com>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:31:30 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: New Printers announced by Epson
> 
> ...and of course can one use current profiling technology with all those
> eight inks.
> 
> Richard

John

There is more info here

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/K3-Preview.shtml

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of john dean
> Sent: terça-feira, 10 de maio de 2005 11:09
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Printers announced by Epson
> 
> 
> Well, apparently they finally did it, added a real light 
> black to the mix and 
> speeded up the printer. What is this going to do to 
> independent monochrome 
> ink manufacturers? I guess only time will tell. I don't see 
> how they can support 
> all the various inksets for all these printers, but it hasn't 
> stopped them in the 
> past.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Roy < 
> thinkgreen@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > Here's the scoop
> > 
> > http://tinyurl.com/7j5x9
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Roy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
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> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------~-> 
> 
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> 
> > From: Richard <richard@r...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:31:30 +0100
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: New Printers announced by Epson
> > 
> > ...and of course can one use current profiling technology with 
all those
> > eight inks.
> > 
> > Richard

Really it has to do with how the inks are mixed. If the printer 
(hardware or driver) does not mix those 8 channels down into the 
standard 4 (CMYK), then you need a special multi-channel profile. 
Those have been available for years. Monaco Profiler and GMB Profile 
Maker Pro can both make multi-channel profiles (if you buy the 
highest version $$$$). These are commonly called HiFi printers when 
using CMYK and RGBO or any other non primary color, and they have 
been around for many years (Colorspan, Roland, Mimaki, etc.)

If you want real control for normal CMYK printing, then you need a 
RIP that allows you to customize where and how the channels get 
mixed. After that it is simply a matter of CMYK profiles again.

Since the most recent info has them as being CcMmYKklk, these might 
not be considered as HiFi printers, as there are still only 4 color 
channels. With a good RIP, it sounds as if you could change some of 
the colors over to any of RGBO, and drive it in multi channel mode 
with multi channel profiles.

John,
 
> Well, apparently they finally did it, added a real light black to the mix 

This plus the driver's B&W mode, if it works as well as I expect, will take
a major part of the B&W field.  I think they finally figured it out.

> What is this going to do to independent monochrome ink manufacturers?

The third party sellers will have the usual clone inks with much lower
prices.  Whether a dedicated B&W inkset will have much of a market for the
2400 is debatable.  I frankly doubt it, even though there could be
advantages to such.

There are a couple of features of the current MIS UT7 inkset that will cause
me to stay with it and the 7600 for a while.  Changing the black inks in
large format printers makes the ability to print glossy and matte papers
without changing inks a huge advantage of the UT7 approach.  

Additionally, the new UC K3 inkset appears to lack the R800 blue ink.  This
blue ink is so much more lightfast than magenta, that the B&Ws done with UT7
(which uses the clone R800 blue instead of magenta in the cool toner) will
probably be significantly more lightfast, but I'll have to run a fade test
to see.  Maybe Epson has been able to deal with this problem.  

Why does the new 2400 have the "R" in front of it if it lacks the Red and
Blue inks?

For those who are dedicated B&W printers, simply putting the R800 blue in
the M positions in the 2400 might make it a better B&W printer that would
still be controllable with the Epson driver's new B&W mode.  For those who
prefer Epson ink, it's too bad the R800 blue is not available in appropriate
carts and dilutions.  

Ironically, between color digital cameras and "B&W" printers that are
actually color printers, I see most casual B&W types getting distracted by
the color to the detriment of their B&W.  It all makes me more interested in
staying with B&W film and a dedicated B&W inkset to stay in an environment
that is different from what the vast majority will find themselves in. 

> I don't see how they can support all the various inksets for 
>all these printers, but it hasn't stopped them in the past.

Too many inksets is a major reason for the problems we've seen.  Mistakes
are inevitable.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "NR_hm" 
<home@r...> wrote:
> John
> 
> There is more info here
> 
> http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/K3-Preview.shtml
> 
> 


Reported as having pressurized carts like the 10K printers. Going to 
make the CIS builders scramble. No more bottles hanging off the side of 
your printer unless a mechanical micro pump is used to pressurize the 
ink within the lines.

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:15:21 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: New Printers announced by Epson
> 
> John,
>  
>> Well, apparently they finally did it, added a real light black to the mix
> 
> This plus the driver's B&W mode, if it works as well as I expect, will take
> a major part of the B&W field.  I think they finally figured it out.

I'm wondering how the driver handles situations which are, say, mostly B&W
but with a little colour.  Seems to me you would lose the B&W mode.
Hopefully all the driver advances aren't buried in there.

> 
>> What is this going to do to independent monochrome ink manufacturers?
> 
> The third party sellers will have the usual clone inks with much lower
> prices.  

Maybe I am naïve but it seems as the inks get more and more complex with
newer encapsulation techniques the clones may begin to lag further behind.

Am I missing something or are the proclaimed longevity stats worse than
those originally claimed for the UCs?

I think the real test will still likely be the bronzing one and whether a
0.2 increase in dMax is really achievable.


> Changing the black inks in
> large format printers makes the ability to print glossy and matte papers
> without changing inks a huge advantage of the UT7 approach.

Yes although it is claimed that only the black channel is flushed now - at
least on the large format printers.
> 
> Additionally, the new UC K3 inkset appears to lack the R800 blue ink.  This
> blue ink is so much more lightfast than magenta, that the B&Ws done with UT7
> (which uses the clone R800 blue instead of magenta in the cool toner) will
> probably be significantly more lightfast, but I'll have to run a fade test
> to see.  Maybe Epson has been able to deal with this problem.


How do you think they cool the greyscale?  I guess I would have thought by
using LC not magenta.  Can you elaborate...

Cheers

Steve

At 07:25 AM 5/10/2005, you wrote:
>My understanding is that the "light" inks make up for the drop size.
>
>Scott


I want it all :-)

Peace

Roy

> 
> I'm wondering how the driver handles situations which are, say, mostly B&W
> but with a little colour.  Seems to me you would lose the B&W mode.
> Hopefully all the driver advances aren't buried in there.

The need for a separate B&W mode strikes me as a compromise.  Ideally, I'd
think there should be a continuous crossover between, for example, the LLK
and color pigs as the saturation changed.  Perhaps they simply think that
for more accurate control they need a B&W mode that sets a very restricted
ink limit for the color pigs.


> >> What is this going to do to independent monochrome ink manufacturers?
> >
> > The third party sellers will have the usual clone inks with much lower
> > prices.
> 
> Maybe I am naïve but it seems as the inks get more and more complex with
> newer encapsulation techniques the clones may begin to lag further behind.

That could happen, but I'm skeptical that Epson has found a killer
encapsulation technology.  For their big color market, the gamut is what
matters most.  Here the ink load -- amount of pigment relative to fluid --
is what matters most.  They do seem to have been able to jack that up a bit.
This probably has more to do with the fluid than pigments.

On the other hand, Epson is the company that has the most R&D to pour into
the field.  So, it's entirely possible that they will be able to pull away
from the others.  I'll rely on my own fade tests to tell.  I'll do a UC K3
v. UT7 as soon as someone can get me appropriate test strips.

> Am I missing something or are the proclaimed longevity stats worse than
> those originally claimed for the UCs?

No, they are claiming better longevity.  That may be affected most by how
much carbon (or the Epson version of such) is in the mix.   The LLK might
help here.


> 
> How do you think they cool the greyscale?  I guess I would have thought by
> using LC not magenta.  Can you elaborate...

They need C, LC, M and LM for the best results.  Cyan by itself gives you
greenish B&Ws.  Use of just the light pigs is not optimum because it puts
more fluid than needed on the glossy paper, which is usually a negative.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Needless to say I don't expect them to support "black only" printing....

>  pressurized carts like the 10K printers. Going to 
> make the CIS builders scramble. No more bottles hanging off the side 
of 
> your printer unless a mechanical micro pump is used to pressurize  

The bottles could be pressurized with one central pump (whee! more 
tubes!), or even with an inflated bladder (eg bicycle tire or 
football). Or each one could be hand-pump-pressurized occasionally via 
a valve. I doubt such a system would waste pressure quickly! 

The best thing about my inflation idea is that we'd occasionally get 
some exercise...beyond mousing etc. 

Maybe a pump could be attached to the mouse...

Mark,

As EPSON creates newer printers, each one of course is supposed to be "the
solution"...  But the standard is very hard to achieve for a company which
creates printers for a very broad and sometimes general audience.

For example EPSON is just releasing 3 dilutions of black in this generation,
while InkjetMall is about to release seven true dilutions of one black tone
in just a few weeks.

If we thought that the best print possible was created with three dilutions
of ink, we would have followed the trend of current solutions which use warm
and cool inks in a set. Rather we see the remarkable quality and improvement
of producing a new Piezography system with 7 dilutions - each printing at the
same time.

So while personally I think that the new EPSON printers each year are "good
enough" for an ever increasing percentage of the market...  we go the other
way, producing a more narrower focus of product which has to be "more than
better", which has to really satisfy those photographers who believe their
work should be printed and presented at the highest standard possible.

We look really, at new EPSON printer releases as offering us some
interesting options to continue making monochromatic ink solutions for.

regards,

Jon Cone
http://www.piezography.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@c...> wrote:

> I would be very curious on a comment from Jon Cone on Epson's claim  
> for great black and white from new printers with K3 inks.
> Has anyone seen results from them?
> 
> Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" 
<westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
>  
> >  pressurized carts like the 10K printers. Going to 
> > make the CIS builders scramble. No more bottles hanging off the 
side 
> of 
> > your printer unless a mechanical micro pump is used to 
pressurize  
> 
> The bottles could be pressurized with one central pump (whee! more 
> tubes!), or even with an inflated bladder (eg bicycle tire or 
> football). Or each one could be hand-pump-pressurized occasionally 
via 
> a valve. I doubt such a system would waste pressure quickly! 
> 
> The best thing about my inflation idea is that we'd occasionally 
get 
> some exercise...beyond mousing etc. 
> 
> Maybe a pump could be attached to the mouse...



Hmmm... How much to charge for a special Epson bicycle tire pump? The 
possibilities are almost endless.....

Hi Jon,

I heard good things about your Toronto printing seminar from John 
Barker, and others. I wish I had the time. Maybe next time you're in 
town?

As soon as the 9800 starts shipping, I think we'll convert a 9600 to 
Piezography. Your new system sounds amazing.

Cheers, John

www.dragonflyprinting.com

On May 10, 2005, at 3:24 PM, piezobw wrote:

> Mark,
>
> As EPSON creates newer printers, each one of course is supposed to be 
> "the
> solution"...  But the standard is very hard to achieve for a company 
> which
> creates printers for a very broad and sometimes general audience.
>
> For example EPSON is just releasing 3 dilutions of black in this 
> generation,
> while InkjetMall is about to release seven true dilutions of one black 
> tone
> in just a few weeks.
>
> If we thought that the best print possible was created with three 
> dilutions
> of ink, we would have followed the trend of current solutions which 
> use warm
> and cool inks in a set. Rather we see the remarkable quality and 
> improvement
> of producing a new Piezography system with 7 dilutions - each printing 
> at the
> same time.
>
> So while personally I think that the new EPSON printers each year are 
> "good
> enough" for an ever increasing percentage of the market...  we go the 
> other
> way, producing a more narrower focus of product which has to be "more 
> than
> better", which has to really satisfy those photographers who believe 
> their
> work should be printed and presented at the highest standard possible.
>
> We look really, at new EPSON printer releases as offering us some
> interesting options to continue making monochromatic ink solutions for.
>
> regards,
>
> Jon Cone
> http://www.piezography.com
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
> <mark@c...> wrote:
>> I would be very curious on a comment from Jon Cone on Epson's claim
>> for great black and white from new printers with K3 inks.
>> Has anyone seen results from them?
>>
>> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
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>

Thanks for the input, good points. Hope I sleep better tonight,  
starting to feel like a typesetter.
Mark

On May 10, 2005, at 3:24 PM, piezobw wrote:

> Mark,
>
> As EPSON creates newer printers, each one of course is supposed to  
> be "the
> solution"...  But the standard is very hard to achieve for a  
> company which
> creates printers for a very broad and sometimes general audience.
>
> For example EPSON is just releasing 3 dilutions of black in this  
> generation,
> while InkjetMall is about to release seven true dilutions of one  
> black tone
> in just a few weeks.
>
> If we thought that the best print possible was created with three  
> dilutions
> of ink, we would have followed the trend of current solutions which  
> use warm
> and cool inks in a set. Rather we see the remarkable quality and  
> improvement
> of producing a new Piezography system with 7 dilutions - each  
> printing at the
> same time.
>
> So while personally I think that the new EPSON printers each year  
> are "good
> enough" for an ever increasing percentage of the market...  we go  
> the other
> way, producing a more narrower focus of product which has to be  
> "more than
> better", which has to really satisfy those photographers who  
> believe their
> work should be printed and presented at the highest standard possible.
>
> We look really, at new EPSON printer releases as offering us some
> interesting options to continue making monochromatic ink solutions  
> for.
>
> regards,
>
> Jon Cone
> http://www.piezography.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sounds interesting. Can you tell us more? Is this PiezoTones remixed, or 
is this a new formulation?
--
Bruce Watson


piezobw wrote:

> Mark,
>
> As EPSON creates newer printers, each one of course is supposed to be "the
> solution"...  But the standard is very hard to achieve for a company which
> creates printers for a very broad and sometimes general audience.
>
> For example EPSON is just releasing 3 dilutions of black in this 
> generation,
> while InkjetMall is about to release seven true dilutions of one black 
> tone
> in just a few weeks.
>
> If we thought that the best print possible was created with three 
> dilutions
> of ink, we would have followed the trend of current solutions which 
> use warm
> and cool inks in a set. Rather we see the remarkable quality and 
> improvement
> of producing a new Piezography system with 7 dilutions - each printing 
> at the
> same time.
>
> So while personally I think that the new EPSON printers each year are 
> "good
> enough" for an ever increasing percentage of the market...  we go the 
> other
> way, producing a more narrower focus of product which has to be "more than
> better", which has to really satisfy those photographers who believe their
> work should be printed and presented at the highest standard possible.
>
> We look really, at new EPSON printer releases as offering us some
> interesting options to continue making monochromatic ink solutions for.
>
> regards,
>
> Jon Cone
> http://www.piezography.com
>
>
>
>

These new "8" series printers are using "pressurized" carts.

That, I believe is going to "screw" the 3rd party ink manufacturers.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > 
> > I'm wondering how the driver handles situations which are, say, 
mostly B&W
> > but with a little colour.  Seems to me you would lose the B&W 
mode.
> > Hopefully all the driver advances aren't buried in there.
> 
> The need for a separate B&W mode strikes me as a compromise.  
Ideally, I'd
> think there should be a continuous crossover between, for example, 
the LLK
> and color pigs as the saturation changed.  Perhaps they simply 
think that
> for more accurate control they need a B&W mode that sets a very 
restricted
> ink limit for the color pigs.
> 
> 
> > >> What is this going to do to independent monochrome ink 
manufacturers?
> > >
> > > The third party sellers will have the usual clone inks with 
much lower
> > > prices.
> > 
> > Maybe I am naïve but it seems as the inks get more and more 
complex with
> > newer encapsulation techniques the clones may begin to lag 
further behind.
> 
> That could happen, but I'm skeptical that Epson has found a killer
> encapsulation technology.  For their big color market, the gamut is 
what
> matters most.  Here the ink load -- amount of pigment relative to 
fluid --
> is what matters most.  They do seem to have been able to jack that 
up a bit.
> This probably has more to do with the fluid than pigments.
> 
> On the other hand, Epson is the company that has the most R&D to 
pour into
> the field.  So, it's entirely possible that they will be able to 
pull away
> from the others.  I'll rely on my own fade tests to tell.  I'll do 
a UC K3
> v. UT7 as soon as someone can get me appropriate test strips.
> 
> > Am I missing something or are the proclaimed longevity stats 
worse than
> > those originally claimed for the UCs?
> 
> No, they are claiming better longevity.  That may be affected most 
by how
> much carbon (or the Epson version of such) is in the mix.   The LLK 
might
> help here.
> 
> 
> > 
> > How do you think they cool the greyscale?  I guess I would have 
thought by
> > using LC not magenta.  Can you elaborate...
> 
> They need C, LC, M and LM for the best results.  Cyan by itself 
gives you
> greenish B&Ws.  Use of just the light pigs is not optimum because 
it puts
> more fluid than needed on the glossy paper, which is usually a 
negative.  

> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Paul;
 
> > >> What is this going to do to independent monochrome ink 
manufacturers?
> > >
> > > The third party sellers will have the usual clone inks with 
much lower
> > > prices.
> > 
> > Maybe I am naïve but it seems as the inks get more and more 
complex with
> > newer encapsulation techniques the clones may begin to lag 
further behind.

Maybe I'm cynical, but Epson is, after all having this stuff made in 
China. Considering current Chinese-Japanese relations, I wouldn't be 
surprised to "clone" inks and carts on the market within a few 
months..

 


>> > How do you think they cool the greyscale?  I guess I would have 
thought by
> > using LC not magenta.  Can you elaborate...
> 
> They need C, LC, M and LM for the best results.  Cyan by itself 
gives you
> greenish B&Ws.  Use of just the light pigs is not optimum because 
it puts
> more fluid than needed on the glossy paper, which is usually a 
negative.  
> 

I'm hoping they're doing it the other way: formulating a set of inks 
that don't need cooling, so there's no influx of color pigs on a 
neutral print. That is after all the most reliable way to get 
crossover/cast/metamerism free B&W printing. Is that just too 
logical to hope for?

I'm also very curious to see how they pressurize the bigger carts: 
An internal bladder, an external pump metering air into the cart, a 
simple mechanical solution such as a springy plastic panel pushing 
against the ink bag?  How they do this could affect third party 
suppliers as much as cloning the inks, at least initially.


Steven Karafyllakis

>I'm also very curious to see how they pressurize the bigger
carts: 
>An internal bladder, an external pump metering air into the
cart, a 
>simple mechanical solution such as a springy plastic panel
pushing 
>against the ink bag?  How they do this could affect third party 
>suppliers as much as cloning the inks, at least initially.

It will have to be something that provides constant pressure
so that leaves out compressed air or gas. It would have to be
a spring or external pump.

Regards, Walt

http://www.kauaiphotos.biz

> These new "8" series printers are using "pressurized" carts.
> That, I believe is going to "screw" the 3rd party ink manufacturers.

I'd be on the side of betting there will be Chinese clones within months.

I have not seen anything on the cart, but it would seem relatively simple to
slightly pressurize a sealed cavity outside the inner bag.  They already
have lots of pumps going, so putting some of the air into these cavities
only when the printer is running would seem relatively easy.

>... 
> I'm hoping they're ... formulating a set of inks
> that don't need cooling, so there's no influx of color pigs on a
> neutral print. That is after all the most reliable way to get
> crossover/cast/metamerism free B&W printing. Is that just too
> logical to hope for?

I'd be surprised if they've been able to do that.  But, who knows.  I expect
little change from the UC inkset.  The MK is apparently going to be
identical, and that is very warm.  So, I would not hold my breath for a
truly neutral black pigment ink.

I think there will be some good prices on 7600s coming up.  For dedicated
B&W printers, they might be the ones to grab.  A large format printer that
can't do glossy and matte just is not that interesting to me.  Even though
they have simplified the process over the 7600, I don't what to mess with
changing inks at all.

So, until that second black cart is there, I'll stick to the UT7 approach.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Steve, 

Are you sure Epson is having the inks made in China?

I thought Epson was having problems with QC concerning the inks they 
had made there, and moved it elsewhere.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> 
> Paul;
>  
> > > >> What is this going to do to independent monochrome ink 
> manufacturers?
> > > >
> > > > The third party sellers will have the usual clone inks with 
> much lower
> > > > prices.
> > > 
> > > Maybe I am naïve but it seems as the inks get more and more 
> complex with
> > > newer encapsulation techniques the clones may begin to lag 
> further behind.
> 
> Maybe I'm cynical, but Epson is, after all having this stuff made 
in 
> China. Considering current Chinese-Japanese relations, I wouldn't 
be 
> surprised to "clone" inks and carts on the market within a few 
> months..
> 
>  
> 
> 
> >> > How do you think they cool the greyscale?  I guess I would 
have 
> thought by
> > > using LC not magenta.  Can you elaborate...
> > 
> > They need C, LC, M and LM for the best results.  Cyan by itself 
> gives you
> > greenish B&Ws.  Use of just the light pigs is not optimum because 
> it puts
> > more fluid than needed on the glossy paper, which is usually a 
> negative.  
> > 
> 
> I'm hoping they're doing it the other way: formulating a set of 
inks 

> that don't need cooling, so there's no influx of color pigs on a 
> neutral print. That is after all the most reliable way to get 
> crossover/cast/metamerism free B&W printing. Is that just too 
> logical to hope for?
> 
> I'm also very curious to see how they pressurize the bigger carts: 
> An internal bladder, an external pump metering air into the cart, a 
> simple mechanical solution such as a springy plastic panel pushing 
> against the ink bag?  How they do this could affect third party 
> suppliers as much as cloning the inks, at least initially.
> 
> 
> Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> Steve, 
> 
> Are you sure Epson is having the inks made in China?
> 
> I thought Epson was having problems with QC concerning the inks they 
> had made there, and moved it elsewhere.
> 
> Scott
> 
No, Scott, I'm not sure about that... I  heard about QC problems back 
in the 'Orange gas-fade' phase of the 12XX dye inks, but nothing since 
then. I just checked an Epson UC cart (I actually have a real one!) it 
reads 'made in Japan'. Darn... just the same, I think we'll see clones 
fairly quickly, how close they'll be to the real thing is another 
matter.

Steve K

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> These new "8" series printers are using "pressurized" carts.
> 
> That, I believe is going to "screw" the 3rd party ink manufacturers.
> 
> Scott
> 


I bet it only slows them down. I'm told the 10K printers use an air 
bladder inside the carts to do the same thing. I'm also told that 
some slight surgery makes the carts re-fill friendly. Probably the 
same mechanism in the new 78/9800, it seems that the 4800 will use 
the same matte black carts that the 4000/x600 printers use. Someone 
posted an epson sales bulletin at DPReview that talks about the matte 
black cart.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s...
wrote:
> Sounds interesting. Can you tell us more? Is this PiezoTones
remixed, or 
> is this a new formulation?


It is a new formulation from the ground up. Pure pigment in each of
the seven dilutions. 
Its designed to be Lab Neutral on a variety of papers that have a
similar paper color as 
Hahnemuhle PhotoRag. We did that because we beleive that that has
become a "standard" 
paper. So there will be several options to get the "dead neutral"
look. On our Bradford 
Brilliant White it appears similar to PiezoTone Selenium Tone inks.
And warmer papers 
shift it warmer.

At this time we are not planning different ink hues as we did with
PiezoTones. But we are 
planning support for other printers after we launch the 2200 version
a few weeks from 
now.

I'll make a formal annoucement after the Beta tests end, just prior
to release with pricing 
and availability.

regards,

Jon Cone
http://www.piezography.com

"Darn... just the same, I think we'll see clones
fairly quickly, how close they'll be to the real thing is another
matter."

You guys are probably right.

It's just that when I heard that the carts were "pressurized", I was 
think along the line of an aerosol can being pressurized.

Even if that were the case, someone will clone it.

Scott

-> These new "8" series printers are using "pressurized" carts.
> That, I believe is going to "screw" the 3rd party ink manufacturers.

I'd be on the side of betting there will be Chinese clones within months.

---------------------------------
Well that sure as hell would be nice, but they have't been able to do it so far. 
As far as I can tell there is no way to yet use reliable pressurized 10K carts 
made by anyone but Epson. This has some people around here using secret 
inventions for refilling Epson carts with Mis or Generations pigments for that 
printer. I wish the Chinese would get their act together with these cart designs 
that don't leak. Evidenty the 10K carts were all made by the same outfit and 
they all leak badly. Lyson's could be an exception, but I don't think so because 
thier cleaning carts have definitely leaked for the 10K also. This nonsense 
can destroy a printer fast.

As for neutral output with Ultrachrome, I'm getting it with QTR on Innova 
papers with no hassle at all. And, I do know what neutral is. Actually the 
results I've been getting spit hairs of neutrality that I could never achive in the 
darkroom. No metamerism and fine highlights. There is so much that can be 
done with software. Did Roy design Epson's new software? Just joking. But 
someone did.

Epson wants it all. I'm not happy about it at  all, but it is quickly becoming a 
reality, especially for the 80% or so high-end printers who need color and 
monochrome  with one printer on a regular basis. HP needs to go back to 
making calculators. 

John

With the information available now on the new printers I'm a bit 
surprised that so many are skeptical or not really interested. Joseph 
Holmes has written a short review of the 4800 and to me the printers 
seem to answer almost all what we asked for in the past. In Color 
printing and B&W. On gloss and matt, black ink switch, gamut, speed, 
Dmax, fade properties and more. Could be that Joseph is too happy with 
the 4800 but I think he has his reputation to protect.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news.html

There's more information here:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/K3-Preview.shtml

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson9700.html

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/News/May05/Epson%202400.htm

http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/10/epson-announces-new-r2400-printer-and-new-epson-ultrachrome-k3tm-inks/ 



Of course this isn't so nice for the owners of 4000's that had to wait 
so long and now have a model that seems old within 6 months.


Ernst

It sounds like Epson may have finally improved/linearized it's ICM/NCA
color curves, so custom profiles and curves may be easier to develop:

<<<<<<<<< (from the Joseph Holmes article )
At the same time, the driver tables, which the user accesses by
picking No Color Adjustment and a particular paper choice in the EPSON
driver, are hugely improved from those in the older driver. The gray
neutrality is more than ten times better, and the tonal linearity is
significantly improved, so that traditional ICC profile making
processes work much better than they did with the previous systems.
>>>>>>



 Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> With the information available now on the new printers I'm a bit 
> surprised that so many are skeptical or not really interested. Joseph 
> Holmes has written a short review of the 4800 and to me the printers 
> seem to answer almost all what we asked for in the past. In Color 
> printing and B&W. On gloss and matt, black ink switch, gamut, speed, 
> Dmax, fade properties and more. 
...

after reading that article, i want a 2400 for sure. He does seem "way  
too happy" however.....doesn't  he?


On May 14, 2005, at 3:16 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> With the information available now on the new printers I'm a bit
>  surprised that so many are skeptical or not really interested. Joseph
>  Holmes has written a short review of the 4800 and to me the printers
>  seem to answer almost all what we asked for in the past. In Color
>  printing and B&W. On gloss and matt, black ink switch, gamut, speed,
>  Dmax, fade properties and more. Could be that Joseph is too happy with
>  the 4800 but I think he has his reputation to protect.
>
> http://www.josephholmes.com/news.html
>
>  There's more information here:
>
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/K3-Preview.shtml
>
> http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson9700.html
>
> http://www.photo-i.co.uk/News/May05/Epson%202400.htm
>
> http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/10/epson-announces-new-r2400-printer- 
> and-new-epson-ultrachrome-k3tm-inks/
>
>
>
>  Of course this isn't so nice for the owners of 4000's that had to wait
>  so long and now have a model that seems old within 6 months.
>
>
>  Ernst
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
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> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE� �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),  
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ernst,

While I think the 2400 will take a huge part of the B&W field, I don't think
the 4800 - 9800 are the ultimate.  

First, having to change the black ink to switch between glossy and matte
paper is still too much of a hassle.  With the 2400, however, changing a
black cart is fine.  

Second, with at least the MIS clone inks, the R800 Blue is so much stronger
than the magenta, that I would not be willing to go back to the magenta in
the toner.  I'll have to fade test an Epson 2400 neutral B&W test strip
against an MIS one to see if Epson has been able to bring their magenta up
to that level.  If they have, then at the 13" printer size, price will be
the only limiting factor.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ernst
> Dinkla
> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 2:16 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com;
> EpsonWideFormat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] New Epson Printers
> 
> With the information available now on the new printers I'm a bit
> surprised that so many are skeptical or not really interested. Joseph
> Holmes has written a short review of the 4800 and to me the printers
> seem to answer almost all what we asked for in the past. In Color
> printing and B&W. On gloss and matt, black ink switch, gamut, speed,
> Dmax, fade properties and more. Could be that Joseph is too happy with
> the 4800 but I think he has his reputation to protect.
> 
> http://www.josephholmes.com/news.html
> 
> There's more information here:
> 
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/K3-Preview.shtml
> 
> http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson9700.html
> 
> http://www.photo-i.co.uk/News/May05/Epson%202400.htm
> 
> http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/10/epson-announces-new-r2400-printer-and-
> new-epson-ultrachrome-k3tm-inks/
> 
> 
> 
> Of course this isn't so nice for the owners of 4000's that had to wait
> so long and now have a model that seems old within 6 months.
> 
> 
> Ernst
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Douglas meeuwsen wrote:

>after reading that article, i want a 2400 for sure. He does seem "way  
>too happy" however.....doesn't  he?
>
>  
>
Yes, unusually happy.  With anybody else it would have triggered my 
suspicion. But more people are now getting excited after they got the 
actual prints in their hands.

Ernst

Paul Roark wrote:

>
>First, having to change the black ink to switch between glossy and matte
>paper is still too much of a hassle.  With the 2400, however, changing a
>black cart is fine.  
>  
>

As reported it is now just the loss of one inkline content per change 
(something I can do with the10000 with a hack too) so they are more 
economic than the x600 models. Given the pro aspect of those printers 
that's an acceptable amount. Having the two blacks in the 4000 ready all 
time is convenient but probably isn't better on ink waste, with every 
start of the printer and after idle time the printer wastes on both 
black lines even when you wouldn't use PK at all for printing.

>Second, with at least the MIS clone inks, the R800 Blue is so much stronger
>than the magenta, that I would not be willing to go back to the magenta in
>the toner.  I'll have to fade test an Epson 2400 neutral B&W test strip
>against an MIS one to see if Epson has been able to bring their magenta up
>to that level.  If they have, then at the 13" printer size, price will be
>the only limiting factor.
>
A dedicated single hue makes a difference in fade properties without 
doubt, less mixing, less shifts. We have to wait for the Wilhelm numbers 
to see how much the new Epson pigments + driver improved upon the first 
UCs in fade properties. So far B&W prints made with the UCs and the 
Epson driver still had a significant amount of composite grey and that 
affects the fade figures. Joseph's estimation of much better B&W fade 
properties for the K3 + B&W mode in the driver is based on sensible 
arguments. The K3 B&W printing comes closer to the way we are making B&W 
prints with QTR etc and UC or Ultratones and with your curves and 
Ultratones.

There's an interesting change in the ink lay down order too. Wonder 
whether that is done for the B&W mode or related to the other weaving 
pattern mentioned.

Ernst

I don't know what everybody is so happy about. They should have done all 
this 5 years ago and saved me a lot of headaches. But, like everybody else, I'll 
probably shell out another 5 grand for the new one too.

John


-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Douglas meeuwsen 
<lipshurt@m...> wrote:
> after reading that article, i want a 2400 for sure. He does seem "way  
> too happy" however.....doesn't  he?
> 
> 
> On May 14, 2005, at 3:16 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:
> 
> > With the information available now on the new printers I'm a bit
> >  surprised that so many are skeptical or not really interested. Joseph
> >  Holmes has written a short review of the 4800 and to me the printers
> >  seem to answer almost all what we asked for in the past. In Color
> >  printing and B&W. On gloss and matt, black ink switch, gamut, speed,
> >  Dmax, fade properties and more. Could be that Joseph is too happy with
> >  the 4800 but I think he has his reputation to protect.
> >
> > http://www.josephholmes.com/news.html
> >
> >  There's more information here:
> >
> > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/K3-Preview.shtml
> >
> > http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson9700.html
> >
> > http://www.photo-i.co.uk/News/May05/Epson%202400.htm
> >
> > http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/10/epson-announces-new-r2400-
printer- 
> > and-new-epson-ultrachrome-k3tm-inks/
> >
> >
> >
> >  Of course this isn't so nice for the owners of 4000's that had to wait
> >  so long and now have a model that seems old within 6 months.
> >
> >
> >  Ernst
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Why?  I'd rather pay MIS prices than their high end.

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==
==They should have hired Jon Cone and bought him out like they 
==did Wilhelm.
==
==John
==
==
==

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 5/13/2005

Right. That way they would have had the 2400 on the market five years ago 
and would be getting it to work properly right around now. : - )

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Epson Printers


They should have hired Jon Cone and bought him out like they did Wilhelm.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <
E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> john dean wrote:
>
> >I don't know what everybody is so happy about. They should have done all
> >this 5 years ago and saved me a lot of headaches. But, like everybody
else, I'll
> >probably shell out another 5 grand for the new one too.
> >
> >John
> >
> >
> >
> John,
>
> What I do not understand is that Epson didn't invite you 5 years ago to
> lead the design team, that would have saved us a lot of headaches :-)
>
> Ernst





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
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- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
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DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
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Yahoo! Groups Links

john dean wrote:

>I don't know what everybody is so happy about. They should have done all 
>this 5 years ago and saved me a lot of headaches. But, like everybody else, I'll 
>probably shell out another 5 grand for the new one too.
>
>John
>
>  
>
John,

What I do not understand is that Epson didn't invite you 5 years ago to 
lead the design team, that would have saved us a lot of headaches :-)

Ernst

Don't know about that. I still remember Jon Cone saying several years
ago on the other list that he needed only three inks to make b&w
prints. And then there was that new project annoncement about
supporting Canon printers with pigs inkset a couple of years ago.
Wonder what happened to it ?

In all fairness, I should mention that Jon Cone was intrumental in
raising the bar for b&w printing and making it possible for a lot of
people to get out of the darkroom.

Cheers,
Andre Moreau

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Ellis"
<bellis60@v...> wrote:
> Right. That way they would have had the 2400 on the market five
years ago 
> and would be getting it to work properly right around now. : - )
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 4:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Epson Printers
> 
> 
> They should have hired Jon Cone and bought him out like they did
Wilhelm.
> 
> John

Speaking of Mr. Wilhelm, he's now provided his preliminary estimates 
for downloading

<http://www.wilhelm-research.com>

and it looks as if B&W prints are going to gain more longevity from 
the new inks than color prints are.
--
Sam

>They should have hired Jon Cone and bought him out like they did Wilhelm.
>
>John
>
>
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <
>E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
>>  john dean wrote:
>>
>>  >I don't know what everybody is so happy about. They should have done all
>>  >this 5 years ago and saved me a lot of headaches. But, like everybody
>else, I'll
>>  >probably shell out another 5 grand for the new one too.
>>  >
>>  >John
>>  >
>>  > 
>>  >
>>  John,
>>
>>  What I do not understand is that Epson didn't invite you 5 years ago to
>>  lead the design team, that would have saved us a lot of headaches :-)
>>
>  > Ernst

Sam McCandless wrote:

>Speaking of Mr. Wilhelm, he's now provided his preliminary estimates 
>for downloading
>
>  
>
I'm curious as to why some of the dark storage estimates are 
significantly lower than the same combo displayed under glass?

-Peter De Smidt

I'd like to revisit the question of profiling these printers. In normal
colour mode presumably the printer just operates as an 8 channel device and
the driver does a CcMmYKlKllK separation when it receives the RGB file.  But
how would one profile the B&W mode?  Arguably one should send a test chart
to the printer, print it in this mode, read the patches and calculate a B&W
Mode profile.  But I don't see how this part can be done by conventional
profiling software.  So we can profile Colour Mode but not B&W Mode?

Steve Kale wrote:

>I'd like to revisit the question of profiling these printers. In normal
>colour mode presumably the printer just operates as an 8 channel device and
>the driver does a CcMmYKlKllK separation when it receives the RGB file.  But
>how would one profile the B&W mode?  Arguably one should send a test chart
>to the printer, print it in this mode, read the patches and calculate a B&W
>Mode profile.  But I don't see how this part can be done by conventional
>profiling software.  So we can profile Colour Mode but not B&W Mode?
>
>  
>
One possibility is that they used used an (extra) edited color profile 
that has got the "unsaturated" treatment on all the renderings. Combined 
with special paper settings for B&W (but still related to the color 
paper settings for the same paper) with the most aggressive GCR black 
generation in it you will get no color ink used in the B&W print while 
the profile can be based on the color paper settings. Given the fact 
that printer can be fed with a neutral RGB file or a Greyscale file in 
B&W mode suggests that something like that is used.  I bet it actually 
makes an RGB file of the Greyscale in the driver again like the Epson 
drivers do with CMYK files already. The toner addition can overrule the 
CM so sepia etc remains possible..

Reading the information again I start to doubt whether it actually has 
linearising features in the driver. It mentions linearisation at the 
factory and combined with Atkinson like profiles that would be good 
enough for most but not for the long run and third party papers. Custom 
profiling can take care of smaller linearisation shifts in time.

Better keep QTR on your system if it isn't working nice on B&W.

Ernst

I'm just coming up the CMYK learning curve but this seems a little worrying
to me - being dependent on the Epson driver canned profile for a decent B&W
profile rather than being able to generate a "custom" profile with third
party software like the Eye One.  I suspect the B&W community needs to dig a
little deeper into just how this part of the Epson driver works.


> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>

> One possibility is that they used used an (extra) edited color profile
> that has got the "unsaturated" treatment on all the renderings. Combined
> with special paper settings for B&W (but still related to the color
> paper settings for the same paper) with the most aggressive GCR black
> generation in it you will get no color ink used in the B&W print while
> the profile can be based on the color paper settings. Given the fact
> that printer can be fed with a neutral RGB file or a Greyscale file in
> B&W mode suggests that something like that is used.  I bet it actually
> makes an RGB file of the Greyscale in the driver again like the Epson
> drivers do with CMYK files already.

So they convert CMYK to RGB and then back to CMYK?

> The toner addition can overrule the
> CM so sepia etc remains possible..
> 
> Reading the information again I start to doubt whether it actually has
> linearising features in the driver. It mentions linearisation at the
> factory 

For the wide format models only.

>and combined with Atkinson like profiles that would be good
> enough for most but not for the long run and third party papers. Custom
> profiling can take care of smaller linearisation shifts in time.
> 
> Better keep QTR on your system if it isn't working nice on B&W.

As I understand it, QTR effectively takes single channel input and the
separation into multi-channels occurs according to the ink selection and
partitioning process conducted when the curve is made.  Is there any
advantage to taking a three channel approach within the document and running
the printer as a(n extended) CMYK device?  I suspect not but I as I said I
am in the early stages of learning about CMYK separations from RGB....

Another point:  wouldn't it be nice if Epson upgraded the 2100/2200/4000
inks to the new formulae, albeit without the llK....perhaps wishful
thinking.

I knew I should 
>have bought Epson stock.

I believe it's a privatly held corp. Why don't you buy the
whole company. Then you could whine all the way to the bank <G>

Regards, Walt

http://www.kauaiphotos.biz

Any opinions on how soon, if ever, we might have a CFS option for the 
new printers?

Harry

Steve Kale wrote:
> I'm just coming up the CMYK learning curve but this seems a little worrying
> to me - being dependent on the Epson driver canned profile for a decent B&W
> profile rather than being able to generate a "custom" profile with third
> party software like the Eye One.  I suspect the B&W community needs to dig a
> little deeper into just how this part of the Epson driver works.
> 
> 


I'm even newer coming up that curve, but am I hearing this right that 
there's no way at this point to make profiles for the 2400?

I just bought the Monaco OPTIX calibration with the EZ Color software in 
preparation for my inevitable purchase of either the 2200 or 2400. Is it 
typical for something like EZ color to offer an upgrade (or a patch) for 
a new printer? (I'd hope so but don't want to make an assumption)

Thanks

and

Peace

Roy

Roy wrote:

>Steve Kale wrote:
>  
>
>>I'm just coming up the CMYK learning curve but this seems a little worrying
>>to me - being dependent on the Epson driver canned profile for a decent B&W
>>profile rather than being able to generate a "custom" profile with third
>>party software like the Eye One.  I suspect the B&W community needs to dig a
>>little deeper into just how this part of the Epson driver works.
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>I'm even newer coming up that curve, but am I hearing this right that 
>there's no way at this point to make profiles for the 2400
>  
>

For RIPs and the Epson driver there will not be any problem to make 
custom color profiles, CMYK or RGB.
There's doubt about the possibility to linearise the B&W output of the 
printer driver.  Of course one could correct that part with curves in PS 
if it isn't satisfying.

Ernst

Here's my understanding...Ernst please correct me if I am wrong.

You can of course still profile the printer for colour in the normal fashion
(print a test target, measure the results and then compute the ICC profile).
Typically this is done with No Colour Adjustment set in the printer, ie the
printer simply renders the RGB file numbers without adjustment.  The
controls in the driver (eg the sliders) effectively "calibrate" or tweak the
printer.  One can create a profile which is specific for some set of
driver/printer calibration, eg a profile specific for a particular set of
calibration controls set in the driver.   This profile would only be good if
those controls are set at the same as when the profile was made.

This is fine for colour work.  But I am not so sure about the B&W controls.
The B&W controls take a colour RGB image and convert it to B&W, or take an
existing greyscale image, and then allow the user to set certain printer
calibration features (eg tint) to render the image.  It sounds like it may
also use a different set of lookup tables than for colour.  If one wanted to
get an accurate soft proof of a particular set of calibration controls one
would normally, as described above, print a test chart with those controls
set, measure the results and generate the profile.  Unless I am mistaken, I
think most profiler software will error out in trying to do this unless some
accommodation is made via a new profiler software release and test chart.
For example, think of the process of using Eye One Photo to profile an Epson
printer.  You print the test chart and measure the results.  If the results
differ too much from expected then the software errors.  The test chart is a
set of colour patches.  The output will be in B&W mode a set of greyscale
patches.  I think it will bomb out.

Linearization is a different (but related) issue.  It is rather rare (as far
as most people are concerned) that a profiling package will test for
linearization first and then construct a new test chart which takes the
printer's linearization profile into account.  I do not expect Epson to
allow us to tinker with the printer's linearization.  Sometimes a lack of
linearity is better than perfect linearization when it allows the gamut to
be extended.  Non-linearity is taken account of in profiling.  I suspect
that Epson decides what it believes the optimum linearity/non-linearity is
and sets it accordingly.  The references in the reviews to linearity suggest
just two things: they have decided that more linearity is better (making it
easier for profiling) and the pro models are individually tuned to a
particular mix as they come off the production line whereas the 2400 is not.

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:07:40 +0200
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Epson Printers
> 
> Roy wrote:
> 
>> Steve Kale wrote:
>>  
>> 
>>> I'm just coming up the CMYK learning curve but this seems a little worrying
>>> to me - being dependent on the Epson driver canned profile for a decent B&W
>>> profile rather than being able to generate a "custom" profile with third
>>> party software like the Eye One.  I suspect the B&W community needs to dig a
>>> little deeper into just how this part of the Epson driver works.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>    
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I'm even newer coming up that curve, but am I hearing this right that
>> there's no way at this point to make profiles for the 2400
>>  
>> 
> 
> For RIPs and the Epson driver there will not be any problem to make
> custom color profiles, CMYK or RGB.
> There's doubt about the possibility to linearise the B&W output of the
> printer driver.  Of course one could correct that part with curves in PS
> if it isn't satisfying.
> 
> Ernst

Does anyone know what this means:

" Ink conversion cartridges required for ink change between Matte K and
Photo K are delivered with the unit"

What are ink conversion cartridges?

I assume these are the cleaning carts you use to flush the black ink line when 
you switch from one black to another.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <
stevekale@b...> wrote:

> Does anyone know what this means:
> 
> " Ink conversion cartridges required for ink change between Matte K and
> Photo K are delivered with the unit"
> 
> What are ink conversion cartridges?

I think it is more involved than just flushing out the black line.  Can't remember where I read 
this but essentially there is some convoluted procedure involving draining all of the inks on 
one side of the printer to these cartridges and then after changing the black ink moving all of 
the inks back again.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@h...> 
wrote:

> I assume these are the cleaning carts you use to flush the black ink line when 
> you switch from one black to another.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <
> stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > Does anyone know what this means:
> > 
> > " Ink conversion cartridges required for ink change between Matte K and
> > Photo K are delivered with the unit"
> > 
> > What are ink conversion cartridges?

Steve Kale wrote:

>Here's my understanding...Ernst please correct me if I am wrong.
>
>You can of course still profile the printer for colour in the normal fashion
>(print a test target, measure the results and then compute the ICC profile).
>Typically this is done with No Colour Adjustment set in the printer, ie the
>printer simply renders the RGB file numbers without adjustment.  The
>controls in the driver (eg the sliders) effectively "calibrate" or tweak the
>printer.  One can create a profile which is specific for some set of
>driver/printer calibration, eg a profile specific for a particular set of
>calibration controls set in the driver.   This profile would only be good if
>those controls are set at the same as when the profile was made.
>  
>

I wouldn't mess with sliders in making a profile. The UC models are BTW 
the only models that allow some gamma adjustment (darker lighter) on top 
of CM. As standard you select the best paper setting in the driver for 
the paper you intend to use and make a target without a printer profile 
interfering. That's done with the same settings (in the driver and PS) 
you will use later on with the custom profile but without a profile in 
PS selected (so same as source). With that target the RGB printer 
profile is made. The paper setting takes care of the (hidden) GCR or UCR 
and ink limits + the switchpoints between C/LC and M/LM and K/LK.

>This is fine for colour work.  But I am not so sure about the B&W controls.
>The B&W controls take a colour RGB image and convert it to B&W, or take an
>existing greyscale image, and then allow the user to set certain printer
>calibration features (eg tint) to render the image.  It sounds like it may
>also use a different set of lookup tables than for colour.  If one wanted to
>get an accurate soft proof of a particular set of calibration controls one
>would normally, as described above, print a test chart with those controls
>set, measure the results and generate the profile.  Unless I am mistaken, I
>think most profiler software will error out in trying to do this unless some
>accommodation is made via a new profiler software release and test chart.
>For example, think of the process of using Eye One Photo to profile an Epson
>printer.  You print the test chart and measure the results.  If the results
>differ too much from expected then the software errors.  The test chart is a
>set of colour patches.  The output will be in B&W mode a set of greyscale
>patches.  I think it will bomb out.
>  
>

Color profile creators will normally try to give you a wide color gamut. 
It is against the nature of the beast to ask it for neutralising any 
color data. There should be new B&W functions added to profile creators 
and an extra B&W rendering added to color profiles. That would be the 
most elegant solution for any printer driver. Custom color profiles have 
the basic data for that task in them already but to get them working is 
another thing. The best possible now is to unsaturate the color profile 
in all renderings. But that creates a separate profile.

>Linearization is a different (but related) issue.  It is rather rare (as far
>as most people are concerned) that a profiling package will test for
>linearization first and then construct a new test chart which takes the
>printer's linearization profile into account.  I do not expect Epson to
>allow us to tinker with the printer's linearization.  Sometimes a lack of
>linearity is better than perfect linearization when it allows the gamut to
>be extended.  Non-linearity is taken account of in profiling.  I suspect
>that Epson decides what it believes the optimum linearity/non-linearity is
>and sets it accordingly.  The references in the reviews to linearity suggest
>just two things: they have decided that more linearity is better (making it
>easier for profiling) and the pro models are individually tuned to a
>particular mix as they come off the production line whereas the 2400 is not.
>  
>
CMYK printer profile creators for RIPs assume that the printer-RIPdriver 
is linearised already and that linearisation is the first thing you do 
with RIPs before you start making a profile. Like it is done in QTR but 
with the difference that in today's QTR you get two fixed printer 
profiles with the package and you have only to make the underlying 
linearisation (without the profiles first).  That can only be done 
because the task of the 2 profiles in B&W printing is much simpler than 
it is in color printing. The advantage of a separate linearisation step 
is that you can linearise the printer every month and still use all the 
profiles you made a year ago.

Some profile creators have linearisation functions as well in the 
package. Sometimes because they do not exist in the RIP used or are not 
good enough in the RIP used.

In RGB printer profiling the profile creator has to assume that the 
printer-driver is more or less linear (as there is normally no 
possibility to do that in the driver) and if it is not it will take care 
of that function as far as it can. If the printer is linear then the 
profile creator will only add the perceptual curve, if it is not linear 
it will make a hybrid curve that linearises and creates the perceptual 
curve at the same time. It is obscure to the profile creator though as 
it only knows that the greys should get that ideal perceptual range. 
When the printer isn't consistent in a month time you can start making 
all your custom profiles again. That's the disadvantage of Epson drivers 
and RGB printer profiling.

The Wide Formats always had more factory linearisation than the desktops 
of the same generation. Proof Printing makes it a necessity. Several 
factors contributed to that and the bigger but more consistently sized 
minimum droplet is one of them. Heat problems in bigger heads can be 
taken care off more easily than in the small desktop models.  Especially 
the first UC Wide Formats improved on that better linearity and so the 
Atkinson profiles could be used quite well on any 9600 or 7600. In time 
they all get less consistent but for example the 9000 generation was far 
less linear right from the factory than a 9600 is. What they now have 
added is a linearisation test per printer that is coded in the firmware. 
So if you can get the service manual of the new models and the right 
tools it may be possible to linearise the printer later on when it isn't 
as linear any more as it was when it left the factory. It should be in 
the service manual I guess as with any head change the service man has 
to recalibrate the printer (wonder whether he waits 24 hours top let the 
target dry). It could as well be hype and just a new name for the codes 
that you have to type in the firmware when you change heads, that has 
been normal since the Epson 3000 appeared. I have no idea whether the 
same is required for desktop models but I think that they have to rely 
on production tolerances in head fabrication.

Your "Sometimes a lack of linearity is better than perfect linearization 
when it allows the gamut to be extended" is something I have thought 
about in the past. There are physical limitations on the maximum of ink 
per channel you can use, there's no gain in color saturation or Dmax at 
some point and any more ink then creates more problems than it gives 
advantages. Especially the less transparant pigments are subject to that 
law. Linearisation between zero ink and that ideal maximum doesn't 
decrease the gamut of the total ink mix. There are however two issues 
that may decrease the gamut after linearisation and because of that 
linearisation: The perceptual curves may fit better within unlinearised 
channels than within linearised channels, the opposite is possible too. 
And in time the printer may give less ink at the max inklimits selected. 
The last more or less undermines the advantage of profile once and 
linearise every month but one can change inklimits at the same time 
based on the Dmax of the targets.  With QTR I did select a slightly 
higher inklimit for the black than Dmax told me, to compensate for both 
issues.

It is too early to know what can be done with the new Epsons on B&W 
calibration. There's a thread going on in the Colrsync list and that one 
isn't telling us much either and has my speculations as well :-)

Ernst

Carl Schofield wrote:

>I think it is more involved than just flushing out the black line.  Can't remember where I read 
>this but essentially there is some convoluted procedure involving draining all of the inks on 
>one side of the printer to these cartridges and then after changing the black ink moving all of 
>the inks back again.
>
>  
>
Sounds more like my hack on the 10000.  The new wide format printers 
have pressurised carts like the 10000. They are located below the head 
height and so need pressurised carts and electric valves in the ink 
channels to get inks to the heads and keep the lines filled when the 
printer is idle.  When the heads are free of the capping station you can 
apply a vacuum instead of pressure on the chamber around the inkbag and 
suck the ink back to the carts. (On the capping station that would be a 
disaster as filthy ink would get into all ink channels) Change the black 
cart and pressurise the carts again.
Do the new auto nozzle test and the printer is ready. The reason to use 
special carts may be related to a one way valve in the normal carts that 
makes it impossible to refill them c.q. makes it impossible to let the 
ink flow back in the cart (but the last is already impossible in the 
10000 with the electric valves in the inkline, yet it has the same one 
way valves in the carts).

I do the same in the 10000 hack but on the black inkline only with a 
cart that I can set vacuum on with a pump. The one way valves in the 
carts are operated on. The electric valve in the black inkline needs a 
finger to stay open. There's a nice extra effect on taking out ink in 
reverse flow, accumulated dirt at the damper flows back with the ink 
that is in the head, a normal flow doesn't do that. This issue may get 
more important if the new heads are the same as the 10000, integrated 
dampers that are part of the total assembly and can't be 
replaced-cleaned separately. There are solutions already.

Ernst

Any idea how much pressure there is inside the ink lines? Is it just 
enough to negate gravity so that the carts can be located 
(significantly) below the heads, or does it spray out of the line if 
you disconnect the line from the damper?

Ernst,

From reading this it makes me aware of how much Epson truely hates the 
idea of any other company producing and selling inks for their machines. How 
much of this improved design is another attempt to outflank the competion, not 
just the monochrome ink companies but the color pigment companies like 
Media Street and MIS.

On a related note, I just spoke with the specialist who deals with the 10K 
pressurized carts they use for 10K Generations pigments. He said the 
supplier tells him the problems of bad glue that caused leakage has been 
fixed, but he seems not 100% sure of the results because so few people are 
actually using them, probably only 6 individuals total. Strange. Lyson doesn't 
answer email, even stranger.

John 





The reason to use
special carts may be related to a one way valve in the normal carts that
makes it impossible to refill them c.q. makes it impossible to let the
ink flow back in the cart (but the last is already impossible in the
10000 with the electric valves in the inkline, yet it has the same one
way valves in the carts).

dfaprinting wrote:

>Any idea how much pressure there is inside the ink lines? Is it just 
>enough to negate gravity so that the carts can be located 
>(significantly) below the heads, or does it spray out of the line if 
>you disconnect the line from the damper?
>  
>

On a 10000 ? No desire to test that :-) I guess a bit more than the 
atmospheric pressure and a sensor to trigger the pump on off when it 
gets much above that goal.

Ernst

Steve Kale wrote:

>
>>B&W mode suggests that something like that is used.  I bet it actually
>>makes an RGB file of the Greyscale in the driver again like the Epson
>>drivers do with CMYK files already.
>>    
>>
>
>So they convert CMYK to RGB and then back to CMYK?
>  
>
Correct, it has always been that way with Epson's driver.  That's why so 
many are disappointed when they send CMYK to an Epson driver.

>  
>
>>The toner addition can overrule the
>>CM so sepia etc remains possible..
>>
>>Reading the information again I start to doubt whether it actually has
>>linearising features in the driver. It mentions linearisation at the
>>factory 
>>    
>>
>
>For the wide format models only.
>
>  
>
>>and combined with Atkinson like profiles that would be good
>>enough for most but not for the long run and third party papers. Custom
>>profiling can take care of smaller linearisation shifts in time.
>>
>>Better keep QTR on your system if it isn't working nice on B&W.
>>    
>>
>
>As I understand it, QTR effectively takes single channel input and the
>separation into multi-channels occurs according to the ink selection and
>partitioning process conducted when the curve is made.  Is there any
>advantage to taking a three channel approach within the document and running
>the printer as a(n extended) CMYK device?  I suspect not but I as I said I
>am in the early stages of learning about CMYK separations from RGB....
>  
>
I guess that when your driver is very much RGB based at the input side 
it may be easier to use that for B&W output as well. And many digital 
cameras have RGB output for their B&W takes. There's no other advantage. 
Greyscale has smaller files, should process faster but it may take more 
time to write separate partioning curves for each resolution and paper 
combination than lending part of that from the color paper settings and 
CM data.

>Another point:  wouldn't it be nice if Epson upgraded the 2100/2200/4000
>inks to the new formulae, albeit without the llK....perhaps wishful
>thinking.
>
>  
>
The very few times that Epson upgraded older models showed that either 
it was too expensive for what it delivered: 7000>7500, 9000>9500, didn't 
get much interest: 10000 (1280) LM and Yellow dye inks for the 7000-9000 
or the upgrade period was so short that nobody knew it was possible 
10000>10600 (only John Dean knew about it :-).

Ernst

The very few times that Epson upgraded older models showed that either
it was too expensive for what it delivered: 7000>7500, 9000>9500, didn't
get much interest: 10000 (1280) LM and Yellow dye inks for the 7000-9000
or the upgrade period was so short that nobody knew it was possible
10000>10600 (only John Dean knew about it :-).

Ernst


I'm not the only one that knew about that. It has been discussed on these 
forums before. A collegue here had the same delemma and decision to make 
and decided to go for a 9600 and traded in his 10K one for one for it. They did 
that because he had complained about his 10K's inability to work well on 
high-speed mode. That was back in the days when if you were a 10K owner 
they gave you temporary special treatment because they knew very well what 
they were in the process of doing. 

The problem was that the user had to pay for this upgrade  ( or firmware 
changeover, whatever you want to call it ) and it wasn't cheap. At that point 
almost no one knew anything about Ultrachrome except that it had brighter 
reds and yellows that sacrificed half the longevity, additionally you didn't have 
the advantage of the additional "light" black. That didn't seem like a good 
bargain and Epson knew people would be reluctant to change to an unknown 
quantity when we had spent the last 3 years touting the advantages of the 
CF''s extreme color permanence which was unheard of for photography at 
that time. Remember, this is also at a time when the tests of Premier Art spray 
were not available. So, almost no one, including me took advantage of this 
situation. It just didn't seem practical with the knowledge we had. They could 
have sent us out a written document explaining the pros and cons, but they 
didn't really want to do it either. This all sounds like ancient history, which it is, 
eventhough it was only a few years ago. Now I truely belive that their stragegy 
is in part  a continual attempt to keep all 3rd party ink companies from 
developing inksets for their printers. It makes sense for a company that makes 
its money on billions of dollars worth of ink.

John

Thank you for your informative answers. I have ordered my 4800 now.

Good choice. I'm sure you'll be happy with the 4800. :>)

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jurajlipscher" 
<juraj@...> wrote:

>
> Thank you for your informative answers. I have ordered my 4800 now.
>