Digital BW, The Print

Peter,

Ken Rockwell and I  - and many others - have gone at it for quite some  
time - in his - (Ken's) last email to me he more or less admitted that  
he was wrong - and that RAW is much better but he simply won't admit to  
the world that he is full of it - he just don't have enough gumption to  
admit it - he just dances around the whole issue - but he makes some  
very telling comments!

One of his comments:

"Anyway, many thanks again for the reply.  I love the way RAW looks,  
I'm just too impatiently to wait or to have my files locked by Nikon in  
10 years when I choose not to by a backwards-compatible plug in for it.  
  it was Knoll who discovered the WB encryption in the first place."

Here is another one:

"Hi and Thanks!

Real men still shoot JPG.  RAW is for girlie men.  The NY Times did a  
survey of digital camera users and discovered that there was a  
statistically significant (18% sigma) trend that homosexuals were more  
likely to favor RAW over JPEG..

I chose not to cite that one; I get enough hate mail as it is over my  
page.

It's all preference.  Some people have different strokes!

Thanks again for weighing in on this one and I DO appreciate your time  
writing.

Ken

I think this one says more about Ken Rockwell than anything else -  
"Real men shoot JPG - homosexuals shoot RAW is what he is saying - you  
take this guy seriously?

If you really want to know about RAW versus JPG, go here:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/u-raw- 
files.shtml

> It is written by an artist who is considered as one of the actual  
> GURUS - AND - also a very, very highly regarded ARTIST - in  
> conjunction with other GURUS, namely Michael Tapes of Phase One and  
> Thomas Knoll of Adobe - If you're at all versed with digital both  
> names should ring a very large bell in your mind. It accurately and  
> honestly spells out the advantages - and disadvantages of RAW versus  
> Jpg!

I'll be more than happy to put the entire "exchange" I had with Ken  
Rockwell on this forum - what he does is leading a lot of beginners  
down the wrong track - it would be one thing if he's even handed and  
explained the pros and cons of each format but he doesn't - and the guy  
calls himself a "teacher".

Hope this straightens out this miscarriage of truth...

It's not impossible to get "excellent" results from Jpg - the simple  
truth is that you can - and will - get more than "excellent" results  
with RAW - it's just the nature of the beast - more work - yes - but  
better final product - that's just the way it is.

Christer


			Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell
			  http://www.ChristerArt.com
		  	   3.7 million visitors to date..


On Jun 13, 2005, at 6:32 AM,  
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>  From: Peter Johngren <pjohngren@...>
> Subject: RE: Re:Quick mini Platinum poll - and using RAW
>
>
> Ken -
>
> So you actually shoot RAW?  Check out Ken Rockwell's
> article at http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/raw.htm
> titled "JPG vs RAW vs TIFF: Get it Right the First
> Time
> ".  I never shoot RAW and prefer to make all decisions
> at the time of taking the picture.  Ken makes a solid
> case for doing it this way.  I am getting excellent
> results with my D-70 shooting jpeg's and having the
> camera do a little sharpening and saturation
> enhancement - which it does on the full RAW output
> before saving it to jpeg so absolutely no artifacts.
>
> Peter

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christer -

I don't doubt that you can get excellent results with
RAW - that is not the point.  The point is, that you
can also get excellent results with jpeg provided you
make the right choices to begin with.  Once you are in
the habit of doing it right the first time, you save
yourself a huge amount of time by letting the camera
do the initial processing.  At least that is the case
with the Nikon D-70.  

Once you learn what you want and how to get it, there
is no point in deferring your decisions to the
post-processing phase and creating all that
unnecessary work for yourself.  Instead, you can spend
your time taking and printing pictures and having more
fun doing so.  It is incredibly more efficient.

Peter

--- Christer Rosewelll <christerart@...> wrote:

> Peter,
> 
> Ken Rockwell and I  - and many others - have gone at
> it for quite some  
> time


		
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter Johngren 
<pjohngren@y...> wrote:
> Christer -
> 
> I don't doubt that you can get excellent results with
> RAW - that is not the point.  The point is, that you
> can also get excellent results with jpeg provided you
> make the right choices to begin with.  Once you are in
> the habit of doing it right the first time, you save
> yourself a huge amount of time by letting the camera
> do the initial processing.  At least that is the case
> with the Nikon D-70.  
> 
> Once you learn what you want and how to get it, there
> is no point in deferring your decisions to the
> post-processing phase and creating all that
> unnecessary work for yourself.  Instead, you can spend
> your time taking and printing pictures and having more
> fun doing so.  It is incredibly more efficient.

I went and read the Ken Rockwell article. In that article he linked 
to a site by Petteri Sulonen who advocates the use of RAW. After 
reading both sites, I truely believe that Mr. Sulonen makes a much 
better case for his position, than Mr. Rockwell does for his.

Since I don't shoot thousands or even hundreds of shots at one 
session, I don't have to wire the results to an editor to make a 
deadline, and I often don't even know what size I will want to print 
the final image, it just seems that shooting RAW is a much more 
flexible system for me to use.

Come on now.  Just because one uses RAW does NOT mean that they are deferring decissions to the post processing.  Give it a rest.
 
Tom Baker

Peter Johngren <pjohngren@...> wrote:
Christer -

I don't doubt that you can get excellent results with
RAW - that is not the point. The point is, that you
can also get excellent results with jpeg provided you
make the right choices to begin with. Once you are in
the habit of doing it right the first time, you save
yourself a huge amount of time by letting the camera
do the initial processing. At least that is the case
with the Nikon D-70. 

Once you learn what you want and how to get it, there
is no point in deferring your decisions to the
post-processing phase and creating all that
unnecessary work for yourself. Instead, you can spend
your time taking and printing pictures and having more
fun doing so. It is incredibly more efficient.

Peter

--- Christer Rosewelll wrote:

> Peter,
> 
> Ken Rockwell and I - and many others - have gone at
> it for quite some 
> time



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've been shooting digital for 4-5 years now as a PJ, and have mostly been 
using jpg due to time saving. But after I bought new computers booth at work 
and home, it is faster and less work, to process RAW files.

danny


It's not impossible to get "excellent" results from Jpg - the simple
truth is that you can - and will - get more than "excellent" results
with RAW - it's just the nature of the beast - more work - yes - but
better final product - that's just the way it is.

Christer


Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell
  http://www.ChristerArt.com
     3.7 million visitors to date..

Dear all,

Danny wrote:
'I've been shooting digital for 4-5 years now as a PJ, and have mostly 
been 
using jpg due to time saving. But after I bought new computers booth 
at work 
and home, it is faster and less work, to process RAW files.'

Even with a slow computer it's no problem at all.

If you use Photoshop CS 2, it's in many cases less work and you can 
even do it in batch if you don't want to edit the files indiviually. 
The work is mostly in he editing (levels, curves, shadows/highlights) 
and the Camera RAw engine in CS 2 helps you there tremendously.

best greetings,

Dré

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Johngren" <pjohngren@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: So you actually shoot RAW? Check out Ken 
Rockwell's

> Christer -
>
> I don't doubt that you can get excellent results with
> RAW - that is not the point.  The point is, that you
> can also get excellent results with jpeg provided you
> make the right choices to begin with.  Once you are in
> the habit of doing it right the first time, you save
> yourself a huge amount of time by letting the camera
> do the initial processing.  At least that is the case
> with the Nikon D-70.
>
> Once you learn what you want and how to get it, there
> is no point in deferring your decisions to the
> post-processing phase and creating all that
> unnecessary work for yourself.  Instead, you can spend
> your time taking and printing pictures and having more
> fun doing so.  It is incredibly more efficient.
>
> Peter
>
> --- Christer Rosewelll <christerart@...> wrote:
>
>> Peter,
>>
>> Ken Rockwell and I  - and many others - have gone at
>> it for quite some
>> time
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
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> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
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> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
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> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
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> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO 
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN 
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>
>
>
>
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>
>

But then, on any reasonable computer there is little cost to post processing the
RAW using the camera settings. That way you get your JPG and if for some reason
(of course this wouldn't apply to you)you happened not to get it right in the
first place, you have recourse back to the original image.

-Stephen
 www.sbillard.org/Stephen

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of Peter Johngren
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 4:45 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: So you actually shoot RAW? 
> Check out Ken Rockwell's
> 
> 
> Christer -
> 
> I don't doubt that you can get excellent results with
> RAW - that is not the point.  The point is, that you
> can also get excellent results with jpeg provided you
> make the right choices to begin with.  Once you are in
> the habit of doing it right the first time, you save
> yourself a huge amount of time by letting the camera
> do the initial processing.  At least that is the case
> with the Nikon D-70.  
> 
> Once you learn what you want and how to get it, there
> is no point in deferring your decisions to the
> post-processing phase and creating all that
> unnecessary work for yourself.  Instead, you can spend
> your time taking and printing pictures and having more
> fun doing so.  It is incredibly more efficient.
> 
> Peter
> 
> --- Christer Rosewelll <christerart@...> wrote:
> 
> > Peter,
> > 
> > Ken Rockwell and I  - and many others - have gone at
> > it for quite some
> > time
> 
> 
> 		
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> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
> or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
> removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
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> posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
> rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and 
> decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group 
> Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE 
> THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, 
> INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN 
> IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
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> 
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>