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Paper Trends - Some Observations

Paper Trends - Some Observations

2005-06-14 by Clayton Jones

Hello All,

I am working on a major revision of the "Great Paper Chase" article
and have been testing a bunch of new papers introduced over the past
year.  I've also been on the phone with some of the vendors.  From all
this I have a couple of observations that, in light of the recent
forum discussions re Dmax, lead me to believe that the matte papers
will not only continue to improve in the Dmax department, but perhaps
will come much closer to or even equal glossy Dmax somewhere down the
road.

The first thing is that a lot of older papers have been discontinued.
In fact, the entire current C-List (the lower quality papers described
in the "Great Paper Chase" article) has been pulled from the market. 
This is just an indication that the paper market is evolving and
keeping up with the times.

The second thing is that the paper makers seem to be finally figuring
out how to get better Dmax.  For a long time it seemed that Hahnemuhle
was the only maker that knew how to get good Dmax and kept it a well
guarded secret.  I often wondered why nobody else's papers could match
theirs.  

Most of the vendors we buy paper from (even those who aren't simply
repackaging) don't make their paper.  They buy from a relatively small
number of manufacturers in Germany, Japan, USA, etc.  A few of the
vendors do formulate and mix their own coatings and take them to a
coating plant to be put on papers they buy from the makers.  Because
these vendors are dependent on the major makers, their response to my
question of why they can't get better Dmax has always been "I don't
know".  For the most part they aren't the chemists and aren't involved
on that level.  

But things seem to be changing now.  I have tested several new papers
that are very close to PR Dmax (the new Innova papers in particular
are excellent and there are several other very good ones), and one in
particular, Dourian Art by Red River, appears to exceed it.  I don't
have a densitometer so my evaluations are strictly eyeball, but when I
lay out all the Dmax test prints (they have a large area of solid RGB
0) and sort them into visually discernable groups, Dourian Art stands
out from PR and the others.  In fact, for the review I have revised
the Dmax grading system to account for it.  PR is no longer on top.
(the revised article isn't done yet, maybe another day or two).

Dourian also seems to have other good qualities and I have ordered a
box for more extensive testing.  I hope other forum members will give
this paper a try and post their impressions.  It's 100% cotton,
240gsm, looks bright so probably has OBAs (I'm waiting for
verification on that), is 2-sided, and has similar coloration to PR (a
tiny bit warmer in ink color but otherwise nearly indistinguishable,
just thinner with a slightly different texture).

So what does all this mean?  I see several things:

1) The makers are pursuing Dmax.  It's what sells.  The market is
growing and users are more well informed.  The low Dmax papers have
been discontinued.  The high Dmax glossy papers are being raved about.
Dmax is king.

2) Other makers are figuring out how to do it (they better if they
want to stay in business) and are catching up to H.

3) Now that H. will have some competition there will be a stronger
drive to one-up each other, so Dmax will continually improve.   It's
just a matter of time.


Let the Dmax wars begin! 


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Paper Trends - Some Observations

2005-06-14 by Michael E. Gordon

>> Dourian also seems to have other good qualities and I have ordered a
box for more extensive testing.  I hope other forum members will give
this paper a try and post their impressions.  It's 100% cotton,
240gsm, looks bright so probably has OBAs (I'm waiting for
verification on that), 


Their website states NO oba's. 
http://www.redrivercatalog.com/browse/doruainintro.htm

Best Regards, 
Michael Gordon


Michael E. Gordon Photography
www.mgordonphotography.com
Fine Landscape Photography

Re: [Digital BW] Paper Trends - Some Observations

2005-06-14 by Joe Davajon

--- Clayton Jones <cj@...> wrote:
  It's 100% cotton, 240gsm, looks bright so probably
has OBAs (I'm waiting for verification on that), .....

Clayton,
According to the information on their site about this
paper, it has no acid, lignin, or optical brighteners.
Joe Davajon

Drop by my site at <davajon.net>

Re: Paper Trends - Some Observations

2005-06-14 by Clayton Jones

>...probably has OBAs (I'm waiting for verification on that), 
> 
> Their website states NO oba's. 
> http://www.redrivercatalog.com/browse/doruainintro.htm

The reason I said it was pending is when I asked the Red River person
some detailed questions about it yesterday he said they had specified
no OBAs, but since I asked, he wanted to check with the manufacturer
to be sure.  I just heard back from him and he said there are trace
amounts in the base paper but none in the coating, which is on both
sides, and therefore the manufacturer considers it a non OBA paper. 
There will be no visible change in the paper over time.  He also said
he is going to change the web site to explain this. 

He said that much of the cotton rag used in paper comes from the
textile industry because it's already processed and is much cheaper
than working with raw cotton.  The trace amounts of OBAs are from that
source, and are not added by the paper manufacturers.  So the whole
issue of whether a paper has OBAs is a bit clouded because of this. 
Papers labeled Non-OBA may actually have tiny amounts.  This
description, essentially the same, has been told to me by three
different paper vendors.

I had also asked him about the weight of the paper - my sample was
labelled 240 gsm but the web site says 260.  He said that was a
mistake and will be changed - 240 is correct.

So - two little mysteries solved.  

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Paper Trends - Some Observations

2005-06-15 by dfaprinting

Regarding OBA detection:

There are a couple of ways to check if you have a colorimeter or 
better a spectrophotometer. Simplest is to measure the L*a*b* of the 
paper white and see if it tends towards blue. Second is to take a 
spectral based reading of paper white, and then make a graph of the 
values (programs like Xrite's ColorshopX makes this easy). An example 
from Colorshop X in the color scratchpad "tool" looks like this: 
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/Intelicoat17mil.jpg

You'll notice the hump at the blue end of the spectrum which 
generally indicates that there is OBA present. The sample is the 
Intelicoat 17 mil cotton/poly canvas material. Papers like Enhanced 
matte have a huge hump at the blue end.

And yes ColorshopX works with the i1 spectro, as well as many Xrite 
measurement tools. The above was made with an i1 pro "new" generation 
of spectro. Also works with the old DTP22 Digital Swatchbook that you 
can often find on ebay for a few hundred dollars. Complete overhaul 
of a real DTP22 is somewhere around $400, but Xrite won't work on 
the "generic" OEM type Swatchbook, so be aware when you are buying.

Re: [Digital BW] Paper Trends - Some Observations

2005-06-15 by Clayton Jones

Hello Joe,

>According to the information on their site...

Thanks, that was cleared up.


>Drop by my site at <davajon.net>

I went by for a look and saw that nice Devil's Garden,Utah image I
like so much.  I still enjoy my personal copy of that.  It's right
here at my desk in a small collection of favorite prints.  I shift
them around now and then so that different ones are on top for awhile.
 It looks terrific in BO and Condor - a wonderful little treasure.

I finally did make it to DVNP for two days, in January, and got some
very nice things, enough for a complete portfolio.  I've been slowly
working at it and have pretty much decided on BO/Condor for them. 
It's mostly dune shots and that combination seems to work very well.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Paper Trends - Some Observations

2005-06-15 by Joe Davajon

--- Clayton Jones <cj@...> wrote:


I went by for a look and saw that nice Devil's
Garden,Utah image Ilike so much.  I still enjoy my
personal copy of that.  It's right here at my desk in
a small collection of favorite prints.  I shift them
around now and then so that different ones are on top
for awhile.
 It looks terrific in BO and Condor - a wonderful
little treasure.
I finally did make it to DVNP for two days, in
January, and got some very nice things, enough for a
complete portfolio.  I've been slowly working at it
and have pretty much decided on BO/Condor for them. 
It's mostly dune shots and that combination seems to
work very well.

Clayton!
You are so kind!  It is immensly gratifying to have a
photographer of your stature like a bit of my work. 
Thank so much.  You've made my day.  
I'm looking forward to seeing what you got at Death
Valley.  I love that place too and we visit it
periodically.  This time the place was overrun by a
zillion visitors enjoying the incredible flower show. 
I got a few pictures.  
Hope to visit with you again.

Joe Davajon

p.s. just picked up my 4800 a few days ago and I am so
far very pleased.  If you want to see anything from
it, let me know and I'll accomodate you.  



Drop by my site at <davajon.net>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Paper Trends - Some Observations

2005-06-15 by Paul Roark

OBAs absorb UV and re-emit as bluish visible light.  So, to see if there are
OBAs, look at the paper under a black light.  The OBAs glow, the natural
paper does not.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> dfaprinting
> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:14 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Paper Trends - Some Observations
> 
> Regarding OBA detection:
> 
> There are a couple of ways to check if you have a colorimeter or
> better a spectrophotometer. Simplest is to measure the L*a*b* of the
> paper white and see if it tends towards blue. Second is to take a
> spectral based reading of paper white, and then make a graph of the
> values (programs like Xrite's ColorshopX makes this easy). An example
> from Colorshop X in the color scratchpad "tool" looks like this:
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/Intelicoat17mil.jpg
> 
> You'll notice the hump at the blue end of the spectrum which
> generally indicates that there is OBA present. The sample is the
> Intelicoat 17 mil cotton/poly canvas material. Papers like Enhanced
> matte have a huge hump at the blue end.
> 
> And yes ColorshopX works with the i1 spectro, as well as many Xrite
> measurement tools. The above was made with an i1 pro "new" generation
> of spectro. Also works with the old DTP22 Digital Swatchbook that you
> can often find on ebay for a few hundred dollars. Complete overhaul
> of a real DTP22 is somewhere around $400, but Xrite won't work on
> the "generic" OEM type Swatchbook, so be aware when you are buying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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Re: [Digital BW] Paper Trends - Joe

2005-06-15 by Clayton Jones

Joe,

>I'm looking forward to seeing what you got at Death
>Valley.  

Here's one 

   http://www.cjcom.net/img/dvnp/dune001b-ws1.jpg


>I love that place too and we visit it
>periodically.  This time the place was overrun by a
>zillion visitors enjoying the incredible flower show. 
>I got a few pictures.  

I heard about the flowers, produced by the record rainfalls.  I was
there in the midst of that rainy spell in January and was incredibly
blessed with two days of clear weather on exactly the two days I had
scheduled to be there.  I was visiting family and the plane tickets
and motel reservations were fixed weeks in advance and not adjustable.
 I watched the weather with some trepidation, fearing the worst.

The day before I arrived there had been heavy rains and snow in the
passes.  But the roads were plowed that morning and I made it in.  It
was a triple blessing, actually.  Because of the previous weather, and
being weekdays (Wed & Thurs) the park was nearly deserted.  I was out
on the dunes at dawn and saw not a single other person (just a pair of
coyotes) until about 10:30 when another photographer showed up.  I had
the whole place to myself during the nicest light.  The 3rd blessing
was that the previous rainstorm had reduced footprints and packed the
sand hard, so walking round was easier than usual (I was told), plus
there was water in the low places.  So I have some waterhole shots out
in the dunes.  The morning I left it was occluded again and rained
constantly all day.  I went out the south pass and almost got snowed
in.  The whole thing was a miracle and I'm very thankful for it.

I've been working on the images and trying different papers and inks
(experimenting with UT7 and UTx3).  BO on Condor is the winner.  Many
of these are high key, like the example above, and they look great
with Condor's white cold tones and BO's luminance.  Really beautiful.
  I plan to make a boxed portfolio set as well as sell individual
prints (if I ever get it done!!!).



>p.s. just picked up my 4800 a few days ago and I am so
>far very pleased.  If you want to see anything from
>it, let me know and I'll accomodate you.  

I'd love to see a print with the K3 ABW settings everyone's been
raving about.  Can you send something like that (just a small one
please)?  


Regards,
Clayton

Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Paper Trends - Joe

2005-06-15 by Steve Kale

Clayton

I will gladly print any image you want and send it to you.  Let me know if I
can help. (I have PK loaded at the moment - not your favourite I know but
I'd be pleased to print an image for you and send it.)

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>
 
> 
> I'd love to see a print with the K3 ABW settings everyone's been
> raving about.  Can you send something like that (just a small one
> please)?  
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
>

Re: [Digital BW] Paper Trends - Joe

2005-06-16 by Joe Davajon

Clayton,
Enjoyed your email.  You were fortunate in being there
without the crowds.  I spent a couple of evenings on
the dunes and the footprints were wall to wall
destroying every shot I wanted.  I got a few nice
color shots but my B@W didn't gel for me.  I have
enclosed a couple of my meager efforts.    They were
shot in color and converted via software to B@W.  All
four prints I'm sending you were printed, of course on
the 4800 in Advanced B@W on two surfaces:  Epson's
premium lustre and Kirkland Glossy purchased at
Costco.  At you examine the prints you will see that
gloss diferential is still an issue but far improved
over the 4000.  I spray my prints (not these because I
wanted you to have them as they came out of the
printer) with Premiere Art Spray which, as far as I
can determine completely eliminates the differential
issue.  I am very anxious to hear your response to the
4800's Advanced B@W prints.  What are your
impressions?
The DV print you sent via email has some problems. 
For some reason the print's whole lower right side is
washed out to pure white.  I've downloaded it but it
doesn't help.  I don't know what could be the problem.
 
Finally, I at one time had your address but have
experienced a computer crash some months ago and I no
longer have it.  Please let me know where you want me
to send the prints and I'll get them off to you
immediately.  Please don't feel you need to return
anything.  
Your presence on the forum is invaluable, and I for
one, very much appreciate  all your invaluable
contributions.  
Regards, 
Joe Davajon


Drop by my site at <davajon.net>

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