Digital BW, The Print

Bernd,

You wrote:

>...I had the opportunity to visit a  famous and very
>experienced master photograph/ and - printer ... He made a
>lot of IRIS prints, which in general have got bad color shifting
>over the years.

Some of the people in the galleries I looked at also seemed to say the Iris
had gotten a bad reputation.  I wonder if it is the same warming that we are
seeing in the current pigmented quads.

>So he switched to archival inkjet printing. He first
>used Cone inks, now he uses MIS inks too.
>When he showed me his portfolios I was not able to tell Piezo
>and MIS apart.

There could be a number of factors that explain the differences in the
colors of the Piezo and MIS prints we've compared.  First,  it appears from
what you say that the Piezo prints are older than the MIS prints.  From what
I can tell, the green in the Piezo light midtones is a dye that fades
quickly.  In my fade tests, the Piezo turns brown and looks more like the
MIS after it's been exposed to light for a while.

> Each print could stand alone in its beauty.

Color is very subjective.  Also, it is mainly when prints are held
side-by-side that I notice the differences.  I am a silver printer, so I
have been most interested in getting to a color that could hang next to my
silver prints and look consistent.

>To my eyeballs and in direct comparison the MIS inks had a
>slight greenish tint, while the Piezo prints had a slight brownish
>tint.
...
>(BTW all prints are made on Hahnem\ufffdhle German Etching=Orwell).

In addition to the age differences, the paper is probably a factor.  Also,
have you noticed the comments in the Piezo list about green colors?  I think
that different ink batches may have different color tints, or the
dyes/pigments might be separating.  I've noticed that with my Piezo CIS, I'm
getting different densities now than I used to, although I don't think the
colors have changed.

So, bottom line, I can't be sure what is causing the variances or
differences.  However, here are the R/G/B readings I get with Piezo and MIS
Archival Matte test strips (essentially the same age and stored in the
dark), reading the midtone values from 20% to 80% using the Photoshop
Histogram tool and an Epson 1600 scanner:

Piezo R/G/B/ = 140/143/132

MIS R/G/B = 132/129/121

I think that these readings are consistent with my subjective observation
that the Piezo Archival Matte test strip has a slight greenish tint.  The
green reading of the Piezo test strip is elevated.

So, I suspect we are just seeing differences due to age, inkset batch, paper
type and batch (I've noticed some differences even between different batches
of the same paper type), and probably other factors.

Again, however, these differences are mostly noticeable when the prints are
held side-by-side.  I have straight MIS prints, silver prints, and Piezo
prints all hanging within my view, but in different rooms and/or lighting,
and they all look fine.  Most don't notice any differences where the prints
are on different walls.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

it may be more instructive to look at the numbers in HSB instead of RGB.
In the case of the numbers you cite:

RGB 140/143/132     =     HSB   76º/8/56
RGB 132/129/121     =     HSB    44º/8/52

Using HSB allows us to take out the relative brightness (56 vs 52) and the =

even saturation (8) and concentrate on what a tremendous difference the 
position on the color wheel shows from 76 to 44 degrees. 
For anyone interested in seeing this, look at the Color Picker (accessible =

when you click on the current color in PS) and notice the color bar next to=
 the 
square with the spot where your color is. That vertical bar gives you the 
position of the big square to the left in relation to where on the color wh=
eel you 
are located.

I have been preparing some spectrophotometric data on piezo with different =

papers and that's what I have been using to illustrate color shifts in 
monochrome prints. Huge differences, when viewed that way.

What do you think?


Antonis



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:

 However, here are the R/G/B readings I get with Piezo and MIS

> Archival Matte test strips (essentially the same age and stored in the
> dark), reading the midtone values from 20% to 80% using the Photoshop
> Histogram tool and an Epson 1600 scanner:
> 
> Piezo R/G/B/ = 140/143/132
> 
> MIS R/G/B = 132/129/121
> 
> I think that these readings are consistent with my subjective observation=

> that the Piezo Archival Matte test strip has a slight greenish tint.  The=

> green reading of the Piezo test strip is elevated.

I want to thank Paul for his detailed response on the mis/piezo 
comparison.  It's great that Paul (and Antonis) have found the time to 
do the research.  I think I'll turn on my platinum printer UV source 
and throw a few sample prints under it for a few days.  That is 
certainly an accelerated sunlight exposure.

Meanwhile, I ordered MIS variable tone inks and a continuous inking 
system.  At $125 vs. Cone's $650 for start-up costs, it is certainly 
cheaper to try MIS first.

Frank

http://www.culturalvisions.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., antonisphoto@y... wrote:
> Paul,
> 
> it may be more instructive to look at the numbers in HSB instead of RGB.
> In the case of the numbers you cite:
> 
> RGB 140/143/132     =     HSB   76º/8/56
> RGB 132/129/121     =     HSB    44º/8/52
> 
> Using HSB allows us to take out the relative brightness (56 vs 52) and th=
e =
> 
> even saturation (8) and concentrate on what a tremendous difference the 
> position on the color wheel shows from 76 to 44 degrees. 
> For anyone interested in seeing this, look at the Color Picker (accessibl=
e =
> 
> when you click on the current color in PS) and notice the color bar next =
to=
>  the 
> square with the spot where your color is. That vertical bar gives you the=
 
> position of the big square to the left in relation to where on the color =
wh=
> eel you 
> are located.
> 
> I have been preparing some spectrophotometric data on piezo with differen=
t =
> 
> papers and that's what I have been using to illustrate color shifts in 
> monochrome prints. Huge differences, when viewed that way.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> 
> Antonis
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> =

> wrote:
> 
>  However, here are the R/G/B readings I get with Piezo and MIS
> > Archival Matte test strips (essentially the same age and stored in the
> > dark), reading the midtone values from 20% to 80% using the Photoshop
> > Histogram tool and an Epson 1600 scanner:
> > 
> > Piezo R/G/B/ = 140/143/132
> > 
> > MIS R/G/B = 132/129/121
> > 
> > I think that these readings are consistent with my subjective observati=
on=
> 
> > that the Piezo Archival Matte test strip has a slight greenish tint.  T=
he=
> 
> > green reading of the Piezo test strip is elevated.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Bernd,

> Some of the people in the galleries I looked at also seemed to say 
the Iris
> had gotten a bad reputation.  I wonder if it is the same warming 
that we are
> seeing in the current pigmented quads.

Paul, he showed me his IRIS prints, they did not only warm up, but 
had different color shiftings in different areas of the image.

> There could be a number of factors that explain the differences in 
>the colors of the Piezo and MIS prints we've compared.  First,  it 
>appears from what you say that the Piezo prints are older than the 
>MIS prints.  

Maybe they were older, I don´t know. But if I compare those older 
Piezo prints to my new-ones on German Etching the tone is rather 
alike so I don´t believe its a matter of age or paper, but a matter 
of ink-charge.


> Color is very subjective.  Also, it is mainly when prints are held
> side-by-side that I notice the differences.  I am a silver printer, 
so I
> have been most interested in getting to a color that could hang 
next to my
> silver prints and look consistent.

Agreed. I´m a silver printer too. I used to print on Agfa 
Multicontrast Classic (Baryt). It is warm-toned in neutral 
developers, but can be much warmer than Piezo in warmtone developers.
I´m very curious whether I will switch to cooler tones with your 
variable inks I ordered for my 1270. Maybe I´ll fall in love with the 
cooler tones if I see my industrial landscapes printed with MIS inks?!

> that different ink batches may have different color tints, or the
> dyes/pigments might be separating.  

Paul, what do you mean with dyes/pigments? Doesn´t Jon Cone claim his 
inks are pure carbon pigments?? Or did I MISunderstand something?

Hey, I´m looking forward to printing with your inks. When they will 
arrive I´ll take some extra holidays.

Thanks for answering.
Bernd






> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., antonisphoto@y... wrote:
> Paul,
> 
> it may be more instructive to look at the numbers in HSB instead of 
RGB.
> In the case of the numbers you cite:
> 
> RGB 140/143/132     =     HSB   76º/8/56
> RGB 132/129/121     =     HSB    44º/8/52
> 
> Using HSB allows us to take out the relative brightness (56 vs 52) 
and the =
> 
> even saturation (8) and concentrate on what a tremendous difference 
the 
> position on the color wheel shows from 76 to 44 degrees. 

Antonis,

I took the color info above, opened a new document and painted large 
patches of the two colors side by side. I very amazing difference and 
as far as the 76º/8/56 very similar to what I see in some of my Piezo 
prints. Especially before the go through the intial warm up.

Martin

(snip)

Martin,

that's a useful confirmation. We can start using the degree of the Hue as a=
 
basis for discussing inkset/paper color.  A single number immediately locat=
es 
the issue on the color wheel!


Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., mwesley250@e... wrote:

> Antonis,
> 
> I took the color info above, opened a new document and painted large 
> patches of the two colors side by side. I very amazing difference and 
> as far as the 76º/8/56 very similar to what I see in some of my Piezo 
> prints. Especially before the go through the intial warm up.
> 
> Martin
> 
> (snip)

Antonis, (or Dan),

Do you have a reading for the Spectratone inks? I would be curious to 
see how they compare.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., antonisphoto@y... wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> that's a useful confirmation. We can start using the degree of the 
Hue as a=
>  
> basis for discussing inkset/paper color.  A single number 
immediately locat=
> es 
> the issue on the color wheel!
> 
> 
> Antonis
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., mwesley250@e... wrote:
> 
> 
> > Antonis,
> > 
> > I took the color info above, opened a new document and painted 
large 
> > patches of the two colors side by side. I very amazing difference 
and 
> > as far as the 76º/8/56 very similar to what I see in some of my 
Piezo 

> > prints. Especially before the go through the intial warm up.
> > 
> > Martin
> > 
> > (snip)

Dan,

Actually I should have addressed my question to Paul, who in message 
#635, gave some RGB values for the 50% patch on Piezo and MIS inks 
which Antonis translated to HSB values. (Don't know how your name got 
in there. I blame it on the Absolut.) I was curious if someone had 
similar values for the Spectratone inks for comparison.

I know that this is a single point sample of a complex system and may 
be of little or no value, but being an engineer I have this stupid 
obssession with numbers. Paul, you wouldn't happen to have the 
0%,25%,75% and 100% measurements in your back pocket? It would be 
interesting to compare how the color of each ink set shifts with 
image density.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Dan Culbertson 
<danculb@b...> wrote:
> 
> > Antonis, (or Dan),
> > 
> > Do you have a reading for the Spectratone inks? I would be 
curious to
> > see how they compare.
> > 
> > Martin
> 
> I must have missed the original post since I don't know what this 
and the
> clip that preceded it refers to.  But if it is a way to measure the 
color
> difference in gray ink and papers I don't think there is a single 
number
> that does it.  Best bet is a spectral comparison of a fifty percent 
patch
> with a reading from a grayscale card.  But that doesn't tell the 
whole story
> since each light color impacts the result.  However, assuming a 
standard
> light source, and using ColorShop's spectral comparison we could 
get a delta
> e reading between a gray card and any ink/paper combo.  But quite 
frankly
> this sort of numerical comparison doesn't do much for me - not 
broad enough
> to get the true understanding of tinted appearance.  Possibly a set 
of
> readings compared to the gray patches on a Macbeth chart would be 
good.

> 
> -- Dan Culbertson
> so many years, so little time...

> Antonis, (or Dan),
> 
> Do you have a reading for the Spectratone inks? I would be curious to
> see how they compare.
> 
> Martin

I must have missed the original post since I don't know what this and the
clip that preceded it refers to.  But if it is a way to measure the color
difference in gray ink and papers I don't think there is a single number
that does it.  Best bet is a spectral comparison of a fifty percent patch
with a reading from a grayscale card.  But that doesn't tell the whole story
since each light color impacts the result.  However, assuming a standard
light source, and using ColorShop's spectral comparison we could get a delta
e reading between a gray card and any ink/paper combo.  But quite frankly
this sort of numerical comparison doesn't do much for me - not broad enough
to get the true understanding of tinted appearance.  Possibly a set of
readings compared to the gray patches on a Macbeth chart would be good.

-- Dan Culbertson
so many years, so little time...