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Digital BW, The Print

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2400 - Paper issues

2400 - Paper issues

2005-06-26 by wwodets

To continue from my last post:

Having only had previous experience with the 2000P and not using it 
seriously as a BW printer, my only previous experience is with the 
Epson Watercolor RW.  Because the 2400 immediately struck me as a 
serious BW printer, I've explored several other papers.  I'd 
appreciate any feedback on both my "flow" process and the papers.

I have a monitor calibrated (with a Pantone Spyder 2) to 5000K and 
2.2.  My first prints on the 2400 did not match the monitor, so I 
decided to adjust the prints to match the monitor (rather than vice 
versa).  On Epson Enhanced matte this required an adjustment in the 
ABW driver of: contast +10, brightness +8 and shadows +10.  The 
monitor to print match on EEM is very good, the blacks are deep and 
excellent and the gray scale is smooth and elegant.

Other papers were variable in their results.  Crane Museo was murky 
in the shadows with poor detail and showed "bronzing" at acute 
viewing angles and I eliminated this paper (it is also very yellow); 
Hahnemuhle Photo rag showed deep blacks but poor shadow detail, the 
latter improved by using the Watercolor RW setting in the ABW 
driver.  (Contined next post.)

Re: [Digital BW] 2400 - Paper issues

2005-06-26 by Steve Kale

You are better off preparing a proper soft-proof.  Unless the black and
white points are matched via a soft-proof (and all points in between
properly scaled) you will never get a reasonable WYSIWYG - even then there
are so many factors going into the display vs print view that things can
never be fully equalised.  But a proper soft-proof is a more robust starting
point.  A technique using Eye-One Match has been fully discussed on this
forum.  

In addition, Roy Harrington has been doing additional work on his greyscale
ICC profiles.  These are about ready for the primetime and can be used to
profile the luminance axis of any workflow.  They will give you a much
better management of the dynamic range compression necessary in going from
your workspace to the dynamic range of printer greyscale.  Keep an eye out
for these - they really do represent an outstanding advance to current B&W
printing workflows.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: wwodets <odets@...>


> 
> I have a monitor calibrated (with a Pantone Spyder 2) to 5000K and
> 2.2.  My first prints on the 2400 did not match the monitor, so I
> decided to adjust the prints to match the monitor (rather than vice
> versa).  On Epson Enhanced matte this required an adjustment in the
> ABW driver of: contast +10, brightness +8 and shadows +10.  The
> monitor to print match on EEM is very good, the blacks are deep and
> excellent and the gray scale is smooth and elegant.

Re: [Digital BW] 2400 - Paper issues

2005-06-26 by wwodets

Many thanks--I will heed all advice offered.  Walt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> You are better off preparing a proper soft-proof.  Unless the black 
and
> white points are matched via a soft-proof (and all points in between
> properly scaled) you will never get a reasonable WYSIWYG - even 
then there
> are so many factors going into the display vs print view that 
things can
> never be fully equalised.  But a proper soft-proof is a more robust 
starting
> point.  A technique using Eye-One Match has been fully discussed on 
this
> forum.  
> 
> In addition, Roy Harrington has been doing additional work on his 
greyscale
> ICC profiles.  These are about ready for the primetime and can be 
used to
> profile the luminance axis of any workflow.  They will give you a 
much
> better management of the dynamic range compression necessary in 
going from
> your workspace to the dynamic range of printer greyscale.  Keep an 
eye out
> for these - they really do represent an outstanding advance to 
current B&W
> printing workflows.
> 
> 
> 
> > From: wwodets <odets@c...>
> 
> 
> > 
> > I have a monitor calibrated (with a Pantone Spyder 2) to 5000K and
> > 2.2.  My first prints on the 2400 did not match the monitor, so I
> > decided to adjust the prints to match the monitor (rather than 
vice
> > versa).  On Epson Enhanced matte this required an adjustment in 
the
> > ABW driver of: contast +10, brightness +8 and shadows +10.  The
> > monitor to print match on EEM is very good, the blacks are deep 
and
> > excellent and the gray scale is smooth and elegant.

Re: 2400 - Paper issues

2005-06-26 by schrochem

Just passing along the icc workflow mentioned here a few months ago.
http://tinyurl.com/7j6um

scott
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" 
<odets@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Many thanks--I will heed all advice offered.  Walt
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > 
> > In addition, Roy Harrington has been doing additional work on his 
> greyscale
> > ICC profiles.

Re: [Digital BW] 2400 - Paper issues

2005-06-26 by Scott McLoughlin

As ICC profiles, am I right to presume these could be used with PWP (
and some other apps) as well as PS?  Thanks.

Scott

Steve Kale wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> In addition, Roy Harrington has been doing additional work on his 
> greyscale
> ICC profiles.  These are about ready for the primetime and can be used to
> profile the luminance axis of any workflow.  They will give you a much
> better management of the dynamic range compression necessary in going from
> your workspace to the dynamic range of printer greyscale.  Keep an eye out
> for these - they really do represent an outstanding advance to current B&W
> printing workflows.
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] 2400 - Paper issues

2005-06-26 by Steve Kale

The currently distributed profiles are designed to be used with QTR and can
be used by any colour managed software that can invoke QTR as the printer
driver.  They assume that the greyscale produced has linear L*.  The photo
profile has a lower black point than the matte.  But Roy has some very cool
stuff to come shortly.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Scott McLoughlin <scott@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:25:26 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 2400 - Paper issues
> 
> As ICC profiles, am I right to presume these could be used with PWP (
> and some other apps) as well as PS?  Thanks.
> 
> Scott
>

Re: [Digital BW] 2400 - Paper issues

2005-06-26 by Scott McLoughlin

Steve,

Thanks. I renamed the rgb files targeted at Qimage to ".icm" extension and
the profiles show up on PWP's Transformation->Color->Change Color Profile
dialog.

Converting an image to RGB Lab has a slightly bluish cast, but looks good.

But converting to RGB Matte Paper makes for an interesting looking image
with quite goldish tones, and the darkest tones "cut off" to a beige-ish 
tone.

Is this normal, or am I likely doing something wrong?

Scott

Steve Kale wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> The currently distributed profiles are designed to be used with QTR 
> and can
> be used by any colour managed software that can invoke QTR as the printer
> driver. They assume that the greyscale produced has linear L*. The photo
> profile has a lower black point than the matte. But Roy has some very cool
> stuff to come shortly.
>
>
> > From: Scott McLoughlin <scott@...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:25:26 -0400
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 2400 - Paper issues
> >
> > As ICC profiles, am I right to presume these could be used with PWP (
> > and some other apps) as well as PS? Thanks.
> >
> > Scott
> >
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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>
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Re: [Digital BW] 2400 - Paper issues

2005-06-27 by Steve Kale

I am not familiar with the rgb versions of these profiles - just the
greyscale printer profiles.  I also do not use PWP but if you are able to
work in greyscale then you apply the greyscale ICC profiles to your prepared
greyscale file just prior to printing (or on the fly at printing).
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Scott McLoughlin <scott@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:54:59 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 2400 - Paper issues
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Thanks. I renamed the rgb files targeted at Qimage to ".icm" extension and
> the profiles show up on PWP's Transformation->Color->Change Color Profile
> dialog.
> 
> Converting an image to RGB Lab has a slightly bluish cast, but looks good.
> 
> But converting to RGB Matte Paper makes for an interesting looking image
> with quite goldish tones, and the darkest tones "cut off" to a beige-ish
> tone.
> 
> Is this normal, or am I likely doing something wrong?
> 
> Scott
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> The currently distributed profiles are designed to be used with QTR
>> and can
>> be used by any colour managed software that can invoke QTR as the printer
>> driver. They assume that the greyscale produced has linear L*. The photo
>> profile has a lower black point than the matte. But Roy has some very cool
>> stuff to come shortly.
>>

Re: [Digital BW] 2400 - Paper issues

2005-06-27 by Scott McLoughlin

Roger that. I can well imagine the RGB profiles (Qimage targeted, I 
believe),
might look goofy on screen but print properly. I'll give it a try.

I'll also look more closely at whether or not PWP supports icc profiles for
grayscale images (I think not, unfortunately).

Scott

Steve Kale wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I am not familiar with the rgb versions of these profiles - just the
> greyscale printer profiles. I also do not use PWP but if you are able to
> work in greyscale then you apply the greyscale ICC profiles to your 
> prepared
> greyscale file just prior to printing (or on the fly at printing).
>
>
> > From: Scott McLoughlin <scott@...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:54:59 -0400
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 2400 - Paper issues
> >
> > Steve,
> >
> > Thanks. I renamed the rgb files targeted at Qimage to ".icm" 
> extension and
> > the profiles show up on PWP's Transformation->Color->Change Color 
> Profile
> > dialog.
> >
> > Converting an image to RGB Lab has a slightly bluish cast, but looks 
> good.
> >
> > But converting to RGB Matte Paper makes for an interesting looking image
> > with quite goldish tones, and the darkest tones "cut off" to a beige-ish
> > tone.
> >
> > Is this normal, or am I likely doing something wrong?
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > Steve Kale wrote:
> >
> >> The currently distributed profiles are designed to be used with QTR
> >> and can
> >> be used by any colour managed software that can invoke QTR as the 
> printer
> >> driver. They assume that the greyscale produced has linear L*. The 
> photo
> >> profile has a lower black point than the matte. But Roy has some 
> very cool
> >> stuff to come shortly.
> >>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd 
> AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
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