Digital BW, The Print

Use ROR or windex and put some on the pad that the head parks on - move the
head to the left first. Let it sit overnight.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "smithj72" <smithj72@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 4:45 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Help please! bad nozzle checks


> Hello,
>          I am using a 1280, a cis from nomorecarts.com, and Paul's
> VM HEX inks and curves, 99% of the time I use the neutral curve.
> Everything was working fine for months until a few days ago I
> noticed horizontal stripes in my prints.  I think this is banding, but
> I am not sure if this is the proper term for what I am seeing.
> Anyway, I ran an alignment check and found that I needed to
> make some adjustments.  I then ran a nozzle check and found
> that I needed to have the heads cleaned, which I did, several
> times, but no improvement.  What I am seeing is that of the six
> groups of diagonal lines, "#5", or 5th from the left is always
> incomplete in the same way.  I have run the head cleaning cycle
> many times both through the software and manually with the
> button on the front of the printer.  I have also waited overnight a
> couple of times as it says to do in the printer user manual.  The
> quality of my prints has improved since I first noticed the
> problem, and I figure that is the result of the re-alignment, but
> there is still some very faint horizontal lines in my prints.  Has
> this happened to anybody else?  Is there a remedy?  I would
> graetly appreciate any input any of you might have on this matter.
> Thanks in advance,
> Justin Smith
>
>
>
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Justin,

This is the first clog I've heard of with MIS's VM inkset.  I've had 2
persistent clogs with my 1160 -- one due to another company's inks and one
after my kids managed to jam a handful of paper into the printer sideways
(which is probably why my 1160 later had a "carriage error" that put it in
the inkjet hospital).

With both of my persistent clogs, the MIS flushing fluid cleaned them out.
I think everyone ought to have these carts of the shelf for these types of
clogs.  With both of mine, there were specific jets that were clogged.  So,
I identified which color that was and "painted" an 8x10 image with that
color.  I then printed that image with plain paper until it came out of the
printer evenly soggy.  This way I didn't waste the cleaning fluid in the
other positions.

Be sure to have some MIS "rivets" to plug the cleaning cart exits so you can
use them more than once.

By the way, I got some of the cleaning fluid on my hands, and it immediately
cleaned off some ink that I'd been unable to wash off even with Boraxo.  The
fluid seems to be a super solvent for ink.

I'm also wondering whether we ought to be using this cleaning fluid every so
often as a preventative.  There are apparently little screens in the heads
that can get partially blocked and change the relative densities of the
inks.  This might be a contributing factor in some of the Piezo ink
problems.  The occasional use of the cleaning fluid just might clear these
screens.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

_________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: smithj72 [mailto:smithj72@...]
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:46 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Help please! bad nozzle checks

         I am using a 1280, a cis from nomorecarts.com, and Paul's
VM HEX inks and curves, 99% of the time I use the neutral curve.
Everything was working fine for months until a few days ago I
noticed horizontal stripes in my prints.  I think this is banding, but
I am not sure if this is the proper term for what I am seeing.
Anyway, I ran an alignment check and found that I needed to
make some adjustments.  I then ran a nozzle check and found
that I needed to have the heads cleaned, which I did, several
times, but no improvement.  What I am seeing is that of the six
groups of diagonal lines, "#5", or 5th from the left is always
incomplete in the same way.  I have run the head cleaning cycle
many times both through the software and manually with the
button on the front of the printer.  I have also waited overnight a
couple of times as it says to do in the printer user manual.  The
quality of my prints has improved since I first noticed the
problem, and I figure that is the result of the re-alignment, but
there is still some very faint horizontal lines in my prints.  Has
this happened to anybody else?  Is there a remedy?  I would
graetly appreciate any input any of you might have on this matter.
Thanks in advance,
Justin Smith

Hi, do you think that this MIS flushing liquid is appropiated for a
Piezo printer?

Thanks,
 Rodrigo

<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I'm also wondering whether we ought to be using this cleaning fluid
every so
> often as a preventative.  There are apparently little screens in the
heads
> that can get partially blocked and change the relative densities of
the
> inks.  This might be a contributing factor in some of the Piezo ink
> problems.  The occasional use of the cleaning fluid just might clear
these
> screens.

Rodrigo,

Yes, I think MIS flushing liquid is a very good idea to help clean out the
sludge that might have built up from these pigments.

But if there is a problem that is caused by too-large pigment particles in
the head, even the cleaning fluid might not help.  In that regard, are you
using a CIS?  The CIS cartridge may not have the 1 micron filter that is
used in other cartridges to catch these large particles before they reach
the much smaller filter in the head.  (Have you noticed a correlation
between Piezo problems and CIS use?)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
________________

Original message:

Hi, do you think that this MIS flushing liquid is appropiated for a
Piezo printer?

Thanks,
Rodrigo

<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I'm also wondering whether we ought to be using this cleaning fluid
every so
> often as a preventative.  There are apparently little screens in the
heads
> that can get partially blocked and change the relative densities of
the
> inks.  This might be a contributing factor in some of the Piezo ink
> problems.  The occasional use of the cleaning fluid just might clear
these
> screens.

Paul-

Is the flushing fluid the same as the "cleaning cartridges"? 

Aren't all the brands of cleaning carts basically the same? 

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Justin,
> 
> This is the first clog I've heard of with MIS's VM inkset.  I've 
had 2
> persistent clogs with my 1160 -- one due to another company's inks 
and one
> after my kids managed to jam a handful of paper into the printer 
sideways
> (which is probably why my 1160 later had a "carriage error" that 
put it in
> the inkjet hospital).
> 
> With both of my persistent clogs, the MIS flushing fluid cleaned 
them out.
> I think everyone ought to have these carts of the shelf for these 
types of
> clogs.  With both of mine, there were specific jets that were 
clogged.  So,
> I identified which color that was and "painted" an 8x10 image with 
that
> color.  I then printed that image with plain paper until it came 
out of the
> printer evenly soggy.  This way I didn't waste the cleaning fluid 
in the
> other positions.
> 
> Be sure to have some MIS "rivets" to plug the cleaning cart exits 
so you can
> use them more than once.
> 
> By the way, I got some of the cleaning fluid on my hands, and it 
immediately
> cleaned off some ink that I'd been unable to wash off even with 
Boraxo.  The
> fluid seems to be a super solvent for ink.
> 
> I'm also wondering whether we ought to be using this cleaning fluid 
every so
> often as a preventative.  There are apparently little screens in 
the heads
> that can get partially blocked and change the relative densities of 
the
> inks.  This might be a contributing factor in some of the Piezo ink
> problems.  The occasional use of the cleaning fluid just might 
clear these
> screens.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> _________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: smithj72 [mailto:smithj72@y...]
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:46 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> Subject: [Digital BW] Help please! bad nozzle checks
> 
>          I am using a 1280, a cis from nomorecarts.com, and Paul's
> VM HEX inks and curves, 99% of the time I use the neutral curve.
> Everything was working fine for months until a few days ago I
> noticed horizontal stripes in my prints.  I think this is banding, 
but

> I am not sure if this is the proper term for what I am seeing.
> Anyway, I ran an alignment check and found that I needed to
> make some adjustments.  I then ran a nozzle check and found
> that I needed to have the heads cleaned, which I did, several
> times, but no improvement.  What I am seeing is that of the six
> groups of diagonal lines, "#5", or 5th from the left is always
> incomplete in the same way.  I have run the head cleaning cycle
> many times both through the software and manually with the
> button on the front of the printer.  I have also waited overnight a
> couple of times as it says to do in the printer user manual.  The
> quality of my prints has improved since I first noticed the
> problem, and I figure that is the result of the re-alignment, but
> there is still some very faint horizontal lines in my prints.  Has
> this happened to anybody else?  Is there a remedy?  I would
> graetly appreciate any input any of you might have on this matter.
> Thanks in advance,
> Justin Smith

Paul-

Actually, a lot of folks say their Piezo problems went away when they 
switched to CIS. I used Piezo carts for about 4 months... 3 of them 
were spent trying to clean clogs.

After reading your posts, I switched to FS carts... Now in my second 
week and no clog... Bought 2 sets of carts... After I use them up, I 
think I will move to FS CIS... Assuming it continues clog free.

Tom O'Connell



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Rodrigo,
> 
> Yes, I think MIS flushing liquid is a very good idea to help clean 
out the
> sludge that might have built up from these pigments.
> 
> But if there is a problem that is caused by too-large pigment 
particles in
> the head, even the cleaning fluid might not help.  In that regard, 
are you
> using a CIS?  The CIS cartridge may not have the 1 micron filter 
that is
> used in other cartridges to catch these large particles before they 
reach
> the much smaller filter in the head.  (Have you noticed a 
correlation
> between Piezo problems and CIS use?)
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> ________________
> 
> Original message:
> 
> Hi, do you think that this MIS flushing liquid is appropiated for a
> Piezo printer?
> 
> Thanks,
> Rodrigo
> 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > I'm also wondering whether we ought to be using this cleaning 
fluid
> every so
> > often as a preventative.  There are apparently little screens in 
the
> heads
> > that can get partially blocked and change the relative densities 
of
> the
> > inks.  This might be a contributing factor in some of the Piezo 
ink
> > problems.  The occasional use of the cleaning fluid just might 
clear
> these
> > screens.

Hi Paul, yes I'm using CIS. I cannot correlate the usage of CIS with 
Piezo problems, because is the only method I use. One year ago, I 
printed one set of Piezo cartridges and that was all with cartridges 
(they are expensive like hell).

I' starting to have very bad nozzle checks and alignment verification 
results (I can see banding on the prints as well), they go away after 
three of four cleanning cycles, but the thing happens to come back the 
next day. The sludge you mention is really scaring in my printer, but 
I suppose it does not introduce a problem in the heads themselves, 
unless the sludge is present also at the output of them, and this I 
cannot tell because my inspections of the printer do not go further 
than removing the upper cover and checking the parking pad status.

The filter you mention, why are they not use for CIS cartridges?

Thanks,
 Rodrigo

PD: the cleaning cycles normally spill around a lot of ink, making a 
mess during the firsts prints afterward. Due to this, I try as 
possible as I can to avoid the cleaning. 

<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Rodrigo,
> 
> Yes, I think MIS flushing liquid is a very good idea to help clean 
out the
> sludge that might have built up from these pigments.
> 
> But if there is a problem that is caused by too-large pigment 
particles in
> the head, even the cleaning fluid might not help.  In that regard, 
are you
> using a CIS?  The CIS cartridge may not have the 1 micron filter 
that is
> used in other cartridges to catch these large particles before they 
reach
> the much smaller filter in the head.  (Have you noticed a 
correlation

> between Piezo problems and CIS use?)
> 
> Paul

Rodrigo

  -----Original Message-----
  From: ramestica [mailto:ramestic@...]
  Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 9:06 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Help please! bad nozzle checks


  Hi Paul, yes I'm using CIS. I cannot correlate the usage of CIS with
  Piezo problems, because is the only method I use. One year ago, I
  printed one set of Piezo cartridges and that was all with cartridges
  (they are expensive like hell).
  [Paul Roark]

  I think Piezo ink is a total rip-off.  If it were truly superior ink, I
might consider the price.  But for inferior ink, Cone's got to be kidding.
Now that trouble-free MIS inks are available (the FS ink) I would  not buy
any more of the trouble-plagued Piezo inks.

  Lots of people like the Piezo driver, so I'm going to help MIS (and us
users) get some appropriate inks out there.

  I' starting to have very bad nozzle checks and alignment verification
  results (I can see banding on the prints as well), they go away after
  three of four cleanning cycles, but the thing happens to come back the
  next day.
  [Paul Roark]

  This might indicate that your head is not parking properly when you turn
off the printer at night.  There is a cap that is supposed to seal around
the head when it's off to stop the ink from drying and clogging the head
when the printer is not in use.

  (You do turn off the printer when not in use, I assume.  Pigments dry on
the head and will clog it if left too long unused.  Pigments are much more
prone to these problems than dyes, but they are worth it due to the
longevity of the image.)


   The sludge you mention is really scaring in my printer, but
  I suppose it does not introduce a problem in the heads themselves,
  [Paul Roark]

  Yes, one of the forum's 7000 users had to have heads replaced due to Piezo
sludge messing up the "dampers" in the heads.  (This information is coming,
so I'm told, from an Epson repair person.)  There are "blind alleys" that
help absorb the shock of the printer jet slamming on and off.  When they get
all clogged with Piezo slug, the shock waves caused by the jet turning on
and off will cause banding and other problems.  Piezo ink appears to be a
bad one when it comes to causing this slug build-up.  I'm hoping that
leaving the cleaning fluid in the printers over night might help clean this
mess out.


  unless the sludge is present also at the output of them, and this I
  cannot tell because my inspections of the printer do not go further
  than removing the upper cover and checking the parking pad status.

  The filter you mention, why are they not use for CIS cartridges?
  [Paul Roark]

  The carts without the 1 micron filters are probably cheaper.  For all I
know, Cone is using the cheap carts for his pre-loaded Piezo carts also.

  I'm encouraging MIS to warn people about bottom filling of carts also.
This may ruin and avoid the benefits of the screen by putting any garbage
that is in the ink below the protective screen.  MIS is apparently going to
have some vacuum, top fill alternative for filling carts soon.

  These ink sellers just don't appreciate the frustration we users go
through when there are problems.  So, I'm trying to pressure them into doing
things right for us.

  MIS was not that concerned about it because their pigments are so small
that they almost never have problems.  However, with the VM black being so
similar to Piezo black, I want to be sure I (and we MIS VM and FS users in
general) don't end up with the same garbage that is ruining Piezo systems
after a year of use.

  I'm not all that concerned about the MIS VM and FS inks, however, because
it appears to be an interaction between the Piezo co-solvent and the dyes
Cone uses in the midtones that causes the serious problems.  What I do with
the inks I've designed is use MIS's clear base, which is not the co-solvent,
and I do not use dyes.  So far, there have been almost no clogs with this
approach -- but it's early in the game.

  Good luck.

  Paul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul,

Regarding 1-micron screens in Nomorecarts, carts. Yes 
screens are in them...at least on the 1160's model. I pulled apart 
my Piezography CIS cart in the spring - as it was totally clogged 
up - and found the screens. Also if you can print small prints all 
day - 5 x 7 - but can not print anything bigger without getting 
banding that's an indication of clogged screens.

Hope it helps.

Best,

John V.

I apologize in advance for the too-strong language in the last e-mail.  I
though it was private.

(But I do get frustrated with all the problems.  I hope we are learning what
causes these problems, but more openness of some of the ink sellers who are
directly involved might help those of us who are trying to help others and
avoid the problems ourselves.)

Paul

On the first times I had some clogged nozzles, I tried what seemed to me to
be the substitute of Windex/Windolene in Brazil (what we don\ufffdt have here), a
sort of glass cleaner. It worked fine, but it\ufffds kind of a mess to travel the
heads to the left, and put some towels under them. Instead, what about take
an old, empty OEM cartridge, wash it with clean water, and fill with Windex,
and run some cleaning cycles? Would this be better, or worse, than other
method?
Rodolpho Pajuaba
www.pajuaba.com.br
"Not\ufffdcia \ufffd aquilo que algu\ufffdm n\ufffdo quer que voc\ufffd saiba; o resto \ufffd propaganda"


  Yes, one of the forum's 7000 users had to have heads replaced due to Piezo
sludge messing up the "dampers" in the heads.  (This information is coming,
so I'm told, from an Epson repair person.)  There are "blind alleys" that
help absorb the shock of the printer jet slamming on and off.  When they get
all clogged with Piezo slug, the shock waves caused by the jet turning on
and off will cause banding and other problems.  Piezo ink appears to be a
bad one when it comes to causing this slug build-up.  I'm hoping that
leaving the cleaning fluid in the printers over night might help clean this
mess out.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
paul.roark@v...> wrote:


>Lots of people like the Piezo driver, so I'm going to help MIS (and
>us users) get some appropriate inks out there.
snip
>The carts without the 1 micron filters are probably cheaper. For all
>I know, Cone is using the cheap carts for his pre-loaded Piezo carts
>also.
> 
snip
>These ink sellers just don't appreciate the frustration we users go
>through when there are problems. So, I'm trying to pressure them into
>doing things right for us.
>
>   Paul


In all fairness to Cone, he is not the manufacturer of the 
PiezographyBW inks. I know this because Cone referred a user I 
know directly to the ink manufacturer when the user had specific 
ink problems. The manufacturer takes advantage of both the end-user
and the ink seller, while the ink seller takes the heat. Not a bad
business to be in (ink manufacturing).

The manufacturer made the ink on spec. If it turns out to be 
unsatisfactory to a % of users, the ink seller is forced 
to continue selling it. Cone can not discontinue it. Too many users 
like it. The manufacturer doesn't care, he gets his money while Cone 
provides tech support. Cone can only issue another formula or
otherwise he would ditch the pleased users (of which I am one). MIS' 
first attempt at Quad Blacks was pretty basic really. They issued a 
number of new formulas since then. And still probably some of the 
original MIS formula users would rather fight than switch!

My opinion of Cone's ink manufacturer is in your column. But my
opinion of Cone is obviously higher. Cone and IJM are both very 
customer oriented. I have had the pleasure of dealing with support
with both Bill Bergh and Manny Sepivulda(sp?) who is their tech rep
for the West Coast, and I have met Bill and Jon in NYC at the Photo
Plus Trade Conference. I know they have the end-users best interest
both in heart and in practice, and they exhibit this when they are in 
control of the situation. When they can't, they and the end-user are
at the mercy of the manufacturer. Its no different with any third
party ink seller. I just hope Cone is using another manufacturer for 
the new inks which are to be released.

I really am quite pleased with the performance of the Piezography
inks other than some CIS problems which I circumvented. I am even 
making money from it. Prints are exactly as I intend each and every 
time I hit export. If you think PiezographyBW is getting long in the 
tooth, they are apparently releasing a complete new version2 in 
February. It was supposed to be at the NY Photo Conference in October 
but has been delayed by events of 9/11. This is according to George 
DeWolfe who spoke on a panel there. Bill and Jon were tight lipped
about it unfortunately. Perhaps it will feature cheap inks in the MIS 
price range with zero problems. Then what happens to the playing field?

I like better mousetraps.

Pete

> I really am quite pleased with the performance of the Piezography
> inks other than some CIS problems which I circumvented. I am even
> making money from it. Prints are exactly as I intend each and every
> time I hit export. If you think PiezographyBW is getting long in the
> tooth, they are apparently releasing a complete new version2 in
> February. >

My guess is that this is going to be their "Selenium toned" inkset that
they've mentioned from time to time.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I apologize in advance for the too-strong language in the last
e-mail.  I
> though it was private.
> 
> (But I do get frustrated with all the problems.  I hope we are
learning what
> causes these problems, but more openness of some of the ink sellers
who are
> directly involved might help those of us who are trying to help
others and
> avoid the problems ourselves.)
> 
> Paul

Paul,

Thanks for the reply. I read once that you used to protect people
from Corporate Interests. However, your patent statements make you 
appear to have a conflict of interests against Piezography and involved 
in the very activities you used to defend against.

Your comments if even meant to be private were a display of your real 
intentions. You are in a unique position on this group and your 
credibility is going to be questioned. 

You stand in danger of becoming the Henry Wilhelm of the Quad Black 
world. Wilhelm was at one time completely fair and objective and not-
for-profit. Now it is common knowledge that his for profit testing 
mechanism puts him in direct conflict with fair and ethical testing 
reports and in the pockets of corporate entities. Yet he is very 
talented and knowledgeable.

If I were to advise you it would be to return to your work and focus
on your curves system and stay out of the special interests. 

Pete

Pete,

You wrote:

>Paul, ... I read once that you used to protect people
>from Corporate Interests.

Antitrust and consumer protection law enforcement is my background.  And
those concerns are reflected in my pushing for an open, competitive quad
inkjet market.

In the consumer protection area, misrepresentations by sellers were a big
concern.  Some irritation that you may detect may reflect my views that as
good as some systems are, their claimed benefits have sometimes gone over
the line.

> However, your patent statements make you
>appear to have a conflict of interests against Piezography ...

I want balance out there. When I started this, I didn't think Piezo had any
competitors that were really at the same level.  So, my interest was clearly
to establish a system that could give Piezo a run for its money.

To be honest, however, I also want to be sure I don't go too far.  I want to
be sure Piezo is health and viable, and I think they may be in a bit of
trouble with their ink.

You'll notice that I publish the draft formulas for the inksets I come up
with, including the Piezo-compatible inksets.  I'm giving the industry,
including Cone Editions, what I've found to be cheap and easy ways to make
pretty darn good inks.  IJM can use the formulas I publish freely, buy the
bulk inks easily, and market the inks without any obligation to pay me or
anyone else any fees or royalties. (I get no royalties from MIS either, but
I have been very clear that I do get supplies from MIS for free, and this is
a clear benefit to me.)

>Your comments if even meant to be private were a display of your real
>intentions.

My comments express my views (sometimes in a less-than-politic manner), but
drawing "intentions" from those views is speculative.

My intentions are to get better inks, workflows, etc. that are supported and
accepted by others.  All I'm really doing is trying to make something that I
can use to print my work.  I am not in the ink business, nor in the
curve-writing business.  (In fact, I am not in any business.)  However, my
interests are served by having this inexpensive and flexible alternative
system widely enough used that it is supported by others.  It not only will
lower my printing costs, but it will increase the likelihood that my
printing process and thus prints will be accepted.

I would rather have Epson or some one else with lots of credibility do all
this -- at a price that is equal to what the competitive 3rd-party inks
cost.  But it just was not happening, at least not fast enough for me.

Being a competitive person with the philosophy that anything worth doing is
worth overdoing may, of course, result in behavior that is a bit like
picking up the ball and running out of the stadium with it.  In my
enthusiasm I may also step on some toes, but it is not with any intention to
do harm. I'm just clumsy.

Cheers.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com