Digital BW, The Print

I use HPR for all my work, including B/W.  I print on the 7600 with UC 
inks and QTR.

I am noticing a few tiny bits of flaking,pin point size, even after 
spraying with Print Shield.  I spot the darkest areas with black 
pastels before spraying, but there is no way I can deal with flaking in 
the mid tones.  I have even tried using a draftsman's horsehair brush, 
but still see problems.  Am I being too picky? 

This is making me crazy.

> but there is no way I can deal with flaking in the mid tones.

But there is. I use a retouche set with two rows of 6 shades of grey,
from black to very light grey. Two rows, because there is a cool and a
warm version of each shade (which makes a total of 12 shades. Oh and
there is white too, so that makes 13). It is a kind of paint, an it
has to be applied with a small brush. You can retouche all tones with
this.

I bought this set years ago. It was originally meant for photographs,
but it works on inkjet as well. The brand is "Rowi".

Having said that, I don't have much flaking on HPR. Before printing I
wipe off the surface with a piece of cloth. I think that will loosen
flakes better then a brush.

I g o r

Has Hahnemuhle addressed this? 

"Flaking" may be a misdiagnosis. Maybe it's just dust?

I don't know anything about Hahnemuhle, but if dust is printed-over it
can fall off after printing, along with the pigment that covered it,
leaving a white spot. A year ago Moab identified that problem with a
batch of Entrada, sait it was dust they had failed to vacuum after
cutting and before packaging. I had paper from that batch, had that
problem, eliminated it 100% by following Moab's advice, dusting with
canned air before insertion in the printer. Good company. 

IMO there's less logic to wiping with a rag or brush unless one
imagines there really mechanical failure of the paper surface, genuine
"flaking." 

I wonder what's really happening with HPR ... if I used it I'd want to
prove to myself that it's not just paper dust that can be removed with
compressed air (canned air). If that's not ithe problem I'd certainly
find another paper. 

Clean working conditions (dust cover over printer when not in use, no
construction work around printer, low foot traffic,
better-than-office/shop cleanliness etc) are obvious requirements.

 Darkroom workers know about dust, but some inkjet users may have
never considered the basics...? 




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnmuir.geo"
<johnmuir.geo@y...> wrote:

> I use HPR for all my work, including B/W.  I print on the 7600 with UC 
> inks and QTR.
> 
> I am noticing a few tiny bits of flaking,pin point size, even after 
> spraying with Print Shield.  I spot the darkest areas with black 
> pastels before spraying, but there is no way I can deal with flaking in 
> the mid tones.  I have even tried using a draftsman's horsehair brush, 
> but still see problems.  Am I being too picky? 
> 
> This is making me crazy.

I too got sick of flaking with HPR (yes, I always brushed it off before printing).  So, a few 
months ago, I started using Innova Smooth Cotton for those applications where I would have 
used HPR.  No flaking problems and it prints as good, if not better, than HPR and has the 
same slight texture.  And it's slightly less expensive.  You may want to try some.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnmuir.geo" 
<johnmuir.geo@y...> wrote:

> I use HPR for all my work, including B/W.  I print on the 7600 with UC 
> inks and QTR.
> 
> I am noticing a few tiny bits of flaking,pin point size, even after 
> spraying with Print Shield.  I spot the darkest areas with black 
> pastels before spraying, but there is no way I can deal with flaking in 
> the mid tones.  I have even tried using a draftsman's horsehair brush, 
> but still see problems.  Am I being too picky? 
> 
> This is making me crazy.

I agree that the Innova and Permajet lines make a good substitute for H.
PhotoRag -- much less flaking.  The Epson UltraSmooth-PremierArt Fine Art
Hot Press papers also have virtually no flaking, a more robust surface, but
a bit lower dmax.  (With the new 4800, the Innova/Permajet coating may take
a hit in dmax, and the UltraSmooth-PremierArt coating gets a boost.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> chipcarterdc
> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 6:07 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Hahnemuhle flaking
> 
> I too got sick of flaking with HPR (yes, I always brushed it off before
> printing).  So, a few
> months ago, I started using Innova Smooth Cotton for those applications
> where I would have
> used HPR.  No flaking problems and it prints as good, if not better, than
> HPR and has the
> same slight texture.  And it's slightly less expensive.  You may want to
> try some.
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnmuir.geo"
> <johnmuir.geo@y...> wrote:
> > I use HPR for all my work, including B/W.  I print on the 7600 with UC
> > inks and QTR.
> >
> > I am noticing a few tiny bits of flaking,pin point size, even after
> > spraying with Print Shield.  I spot the darkest areas with black
> > pastels before spraying, but there is no way I can deal with flaking in
> > the mid tones.  I have even tried using a draftsman's horsehair brush,
> > but still see problems.  Am I being too picky?
> >
> > This is making me crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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There is a tendency for Photo Rag to flake, no doubt about it.  What I do is rub the surface, 
not too delicately, then blow it off with compressed air and print.  Except in one or two rare 
cases, this has stopped flaking problems.  By the way, I have found that the new Photo Rag 
Satin is much less prone to flaking; in fact, so far haven't noticed any.

Angelo

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnmuir.geo" 
> <johnmuir.geo@y...> wrote:
> > I use HPR for all my work, including B/W.  I print on the 7600 with UC 
> > inks and QTR.
> > 
> > I am noticing a few tiny bits of flaking,pin point size, even after 
> > spraying with Print Shield.  I spot the darkest areas with black 
> > pastels before spraying, but there is no way I can deal with flaking in 
> > the mid tones.  I have even tried using a draftsman's horsehair brush, 
> > but still see problems.  Am I being too picky? 
> > 
> > This is making me crazy.

Yeah, I haven't noticed flaking on HPR Satin either.  But it will 
scuff after printing if you're not careful.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "acmdude" 
<acmdude@b...> wrote:
> There is a tendency for Photo Rag to flake, no doubt about it.  
What I do is rub the surface, 
> not too delicately, then blow it off with compressed air and 
print.  Except in one or two rare 
> cases, this has stopped flaking problems.  By the way, I have found 
that the new Photo Rag 
> Satin is much less prone to flaking; in fact, so far haven't 
noticed any.
> 
> Angelo
> 
> 
> > 
> > --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnmuir.geo" 
> > <johnmuir.geo@y...> wrote:
> > > I use HPR for all my work, including B/W.  I print on the 7600 
with UC 
> > > inks and QTR.
> > > 
> > > I am noticing a few tiny bits of flaking,pin point size, even 
after 
> > > spraying with Print Shield.  I spot the darkest areas with 
black 
> > > pastels before spraying, but there is no way I can deal with 
flaking in 
> > > the mid tones.  I have even tried using a draftsman's horsehair 
brush, 

> > > but still see problems.  Am I being too picky? 
> > > 
> > > This is making me crazy.

What qtr profile do you use with the Innova?

I'm pretty unhappy about this. Hahnemuhle is a beautiful paper, and 
ought not be doing this.  Same complaint I had with the Moab Entrada 
last year.  That stuff flakes even worse.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> I too got sick of flaking with HPR (yes, I always brushed it off 
before printing).  So, a few 
> months ago, I started using Innova Smooth Cotton for those 
applications where I would have 
> used HPR.  No flaking problems and it prints as good, if not 
better, than HPR and has the 
> same slight texture.  And it's slightly less expensive.  You may 
want to try some.
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnmuir.geo" 
> <johnmuir.geo@y...> wrote:
> > I use HPR for all my work, including B/W.  I print on the 7600 
with UC 
> > inks and QTR.
> > 
> > I am noticing a few tiny bits of flaking,pin point size, even 
after 
> > spraying with Print Shield.  I spot the darkest areas with black 
> > pastels before spraying, but there is no way I can deal with 
flaking in 
> > the mid tones.  I have even tried using a draftsman's horsehair 
brush, 

> > but still see problems.  Am I being too picky? 
> > 
> > This is making me crazy.

I have found a solution for the flaking problem.  It involves unrolling 
the paper on a flat surface, giving it a good rubdown with cotton 
gallery gloves, then rolling it with a lint roller.

It works, as long as no adhesive from the lint roller gets on the 
paper.  I learned this the hard way, of course, so now I roll a piece 
of clean scrap paper to "dull down" the adhesive somewhat.

Pretty cheesy, I admit, but it works.

Jack

Djon, I just noticed this reply from you.  I'll elaborate on my 
printing process and environment.

First of all, I have found no problems with other papers in the same 
environment, with the exception of Moab Entrada.  I have used 
Somerset, Epson Premium Luster, and EEM.  None of these have "flaked".

Nevertheless, dust could be an issue.  I am in a very dry climate, 
and perhaps the HPR developes a static charge that picks up dust.  It 
could also be the ink density. I only notice the problem with B/W 
prints, especially in the lightest greys.  I do not see it in my 
color work.

At any rate, my lint roller solution seems to be working for now, and 
after I'm finished with these rolls of HPR, maybe I'll try some of 
the alternatives suggested here.  I'm not eager to abandon the HPR, 
because it took me some time, and wasted paper, to refine the 
workflow.

Jack


-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" 
<westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> 
> Has Hahnemuhle addressed this? 
> 
> "Flaking" may be a misdiagnosis. Maybe it's just dust?
> 
> I don't know anything about Hahnemuhle, but if dust is printed-over 
it
> can fall off after printing, along with the pigment that covered it,
> leaving a white spot. A year ago Moab identified that problem with a
> batch of Entrada, sait it was dust they had failed to vacuum after
> cutting and before packaging. I had paper from that batch, had that
> problem, eliminated it 100% by following Moab's advice, dusting with
> canned air before insertion in the printer. Good company. 
> 
> IMO there's less logic to wiping with a rag or brush unless one
> imagines there really mechanical failure of the paper surface, 
genuine
> "flaking." 
> 
> I wonder what's really happening with HPR ... if I used it I'd want 
to
> prove to myself that it's not just paper dust that can be removed 
with
> compressed air (canned air). If that's not ithe problem I'd 
certainly
> find another paper. 
> 
> Clean working conditions (dust cover over printer when not in use, 
no
> construction work around printer, low foot traffic,
> better-than-office/shop cleanliness etc) are obvious requirements.
> 
>  Darkroom workers know about dust, but some inkjet users may have
> never considered the basics...? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnmuir.geo"
> <johnmuir.geo@y...> wrote:
> > I use HPR for all my work, including B/W.  I print on the 7600 
with UC 
> > inks and QTR.
> > 
> > I am noticing a few tiny bits of flaking,pin point size, even 
after 
> > spraying with Print Shield.  I spot the darkest areas with black 
> > pastels before spraying, but there is no way I can deal with 
flaking in 
> > the mid tones.  I have even tried using a draftsman's horsehair 
brush, 

> > but still see problems.  Am I being too picky? 
> > 
> > This is making me crazy.

I've been using Entrada for a year: I just opened an ignored year-old
package from my first order...got it just before Moab explained their
handling error. This old lot has obvious loose paper dust from the
cutting process. Happily it prints with no "flakes" after I blow the
dust off, per Moab's advice. Before I knew to blow the dust off the
printer would print over the dust, which would subsequently fall off 
leaving white spots...in other words, this Entrada doesn't "flake" but
it does need to be dusted. 

Subsequent orders of Entrada have come pre-dusted but I now choose to
blow compressed air on every sheet anyway, as on every other brand 
that doesn't come sealed in a dustproof package (Epson-style). 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnmuir.geo"
<johnmuir.geo@y...> wrote:

> Djon, I just noticed this reply from you.  I'll elaborate on my 
> printing process and environment.
> 
> First of all, I have found no problems with other papers in the same 
> environment, with the exception of Moab Entrada.  I have used 
> Somerset, Epson Premium Luster, and EEM.  None of these have "flaked".
> 
> Nevertheless, dust could be an issue.  I am in a very dry climate, 
> and perhaps the HPR developes a static charge that picks up dust.  It 
> could also be the ink density. I only notice the problem with B/W 
> prints, especially in the lightest greys.  I do not see it in my 
> color work.
> 
> At any rate, my lint roller solution seems to be working for now, and 
> after I'm finished with these rolls of HPR, maybe I'll try some of 
> the alternatives suggested here.  I'm not eager to abandon the HPR, 
> because it took me some time, and wasted paper, to refine the 
> workflow.
> 
> Jack
> 
> 
> -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" 
> <westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Has Hahnemuhle addressed this? 
> > 
> > "Flaking" may be a misdiagnosis. Maybe it's just dust?
> > 
> > I don't know anything about Hahnemuhle, but if dust is printed-over 
> it
> > can fall off after printing, along with the pigment that covered it,
> > leaving a white spot. A year ago Moab identified that problem with a
> > batch of Entrada, sait it was dust they had failed to vacuum after
> > cutting and before packaging. I had paper from that batch, had that
> > problem, eliminated it 100% by following Moab's advice, dusting with
> > canned air before insertion in the printer. Good company. 
> > 
> > IMO there's less logic to wiping with a rag or brush unless one
> > imagines there really mechanical failure of the paper surface, 
> genuine
> > "flaking." 
> > 
> > I wonder what's really happening with HPR ... if I used it I'd want 
> to
> > prove to myself that it's not just paper dust that can be removed 
> with
> > compressed air (canned air). If that's not ithe problem I'd 
> certainly
> > find another paper. 
> > 
> > Clean working conditions (dust cover over printer when not in use, 
> no
> > construction work around printer, low foot traffic,
> > better-than-office/shop cleanliness etc) are obvious requirements.
> > 
> >  Darkroom workers know about dust, but some inkjet users may have
> > never considered the basics...? 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnmuir.geo"
> > <johnmuir.geo@y...> wrote:
> > > I use HPR for all my work, including B/W.  I print on the 7600 
> with UC 
> > > inks and QTR.
> > > 
> > > I am noticing a few tiny bits of flaking,pin point size, even 
> after 
> > > spraying with Print Shield.  I spot the darkest areas with black 
> > > pastels before spraying, but there is no way I can deal with 
> flaking in 
> > > the mid tones.  I have even tried using a draftsman's horsehair 
> brush, 
> > > but still see problems.  Am I being too picky? 
> > > 
> > > This is making me crazy.