Digital BW, The Print

Hello everybody

Just in case you have not noticed:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi037/Epson_R4800.html

Ditto

"Tests to date indicate that with color images. UltraChrome and UltraChrome K3 inks have similar permanence characteristics. However, with black and white prints, the display permanence ratings with UltraChrome K3 inks are significantly improved because the three-level, highly stable CARBON PIGMENT BASED  black inks in teh UltraChrome K3 inkset are used over the entire tonal scale and largely replace the less stable cyan, magenta, and yellow color inksin B&W prints whne they are made with the "Advance Black and Whitte Print Mode." (Capital letters by yours truly.)

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html

(Posted June 30)

Ukko Heikkinen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ukko Heikkinen" 
<ukko.heikkinen@p...> wrote:
> Hello everybody
> 
> Just in case you have not noticed:
> 
> http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi037/Epson_R4800.html
> 
> Ditto
> 
> "Tests to date indicate that with color images. UltraChrome and UltraChrome K3 inks 
have similar permanence characteristics. However, with black and white prints, the display 
permanence ratings with UltraChrome K3 inks are significantly improved because the 
three-level, highly stable CARBON PIGMENT BASED  black inks in teh UltraChrome K3 
inkset are used over the entire tonal scale and largely replace the less stable cyan, 
magenta, and yellow color inksin B&W prints whne they are made with the "Advance Black 
and Whitte Print Mode." (Capital letters by yours truly.)
> 
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html
> 

Right on top of things. Most people here have been doing just that or better for years. 
Sure feels like things are going backwards lately.
Tyler
www.custom-digital.com

Maybe someone ought to show the outback group the Epson MSDS that says
"proprietary dyes and pigments" more than carbon.  They might also like to
see the scan of the 4800 highlights -- lots of color dots.

The K3 fade tests will be better and probably not be affected by the
highlights due to the test protocol.

I will have some information about the highlights from my tests, but they
carry no weight relative to Mr. W's.

"Follow the money."

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ukko
> Heikkinen
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 2:06 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 4800 AND 2400
> 
> Hello everybody
> 
> Just in case you have not noticed:
> 
> http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi037/Epson_R4800.html
> 
> Ditto
> 
> "Tests to date indicate that with color images. UltraChrome and
> UltraChrome K3 inks have similar permanence characteristics. However, with
> black and white prints, the display permanence ratings with UltraChrome K3
> inks are significantly improved because the three-level, highly stable
> CARBON PIGMENT BASED  black inks in teh UltraChrome K3 inkset are used
> over the entire tonal scale and largely replace the less stable cyan,
> magenta, and yellow color inksin B&W prints whne they are made with the
> "Advance Black and Whitte Print Mode." (Capital letters by yours truly.)
> 
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html
> 
> (Posted June 30)
> 
> Ukko Heikkinen
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
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maybe so, but in Harald Johnson's book B&W using all std UC  inks, including color of 
course, rates at something like 140 years.  As I recall, but could have forgotten, this was in 
enhanced matte which is not "perfectly archival" to start with.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ukko Heikkinen" 
<ukko.heikkinen@p...> wrote:
> Hello everybody
> 
> Just in case you have not noticed:
> 
> http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi037/Epson_R4800.html
> 
> Ditto
> 
> "Tests to date indicate that with color images. UltraChrome and UltraChrome K3 inks 
have similar permanence characteristics. However, with black and white prints, the display 
permanence ratings with UltraChrome K3 inks are significantly improved because the 
three-level, highly stable CARBON PIGMENT BASED  black inks in teh UltraChrome K3 
inkset are used over the entire tonal scale and largely replace the less stable cyan, 
magenta, and yellow color inksin B&W prints whne they are made with the "Advance Black 
and Whitte Print Mode." (Capital letters by yours truly.)

> 
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html
> 
> (Posted June 30)
> 
> Ukko Heikkinen
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Graham"
<gebilwil@n...> wrote:
> maybe so, but in Harald Johnson's book B&W using all std UC  inks,
including color of 
> course, rates at something like 140 years.  As I recall, but could
have forgotten, this was in 
> enhanced matte which is not "perfectly archival" to start with.

Well, since there seems to be an abundance of "information" bandied
about lately, I 'll urp this up on the group and you can just label me
a cynical SOB and be on your way...

It's extraordinarily aparent that there are literally no
qualifications requitred to be an expert in this new area of digital.
I've seen more references to website articles and books lately that
are simply incorrect or behind or misleading... I'm just wondering, is
there a living in becoming one of these luminaries? Is there a club to
join, rounds of drink to buy, wife jokes to swap? Who do I approach?
Who do I invoice?

First of all, printing "B&W using all std UC inks, including color of
course" would not be advised by anyone I know of with an acceptable
level of knowledge and experience. I am assuming this was done in the
context of using the normal Epson driver with profiles. A RIP with
more unusual methods or profiles would be a different story, though
somehow I doubt this was the case in the book.
Secondly, "rates at something like 140 years" doing what? Sitting in a
freezer? Laying in the Sahara sun? By whose test? What were the
methods? Frankly, I don't believe it. But I'll bet the piece of paper
with some remnant of image will actually still exist at 140 years, for
what that's worth.
Anyone can say this kind of thing. Come to think of it, I rate my
personal prints at 263 years, no, wait, 287 years.

I'm sorry if this particular example raise my hackles, I'm sure Harald
Johnson is an expert and writes great books and makes great prints.
But it's becoming more and more apparent to me, as this stuff gets
more and more complex, that a huge market has openned up for
proffesional givers of advice, and groups like this become more and
more necessary for us. A bit of skepticism may be in order these days.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> 
> It's extraordinarily aparent that there are literally no
> qualifications requitred to be an expert in this new area of digital.
> I've seen more references to website articles and books lately that
> are simply incorrect or behind or misleading... I'm just wondering, is
> there a living in becoming one of these luminaries? Is there a club to
> join, rounds of drink to buy, wife jokes to swap? Who do I approach?
> Who do I invoice?
> 
> Tyler

I would echo something here, but I don't want to be included in the 
cynical SOB club too, though the monthly dues are most reasonable and 
you get a great calendar with daily cynicisms for quoting to others.

"Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Graham"
> <gebilwil@n...> wrote:
> > maybe so, but in Harald Johnson's book B&W using all std UC  inks,
> including color of 
> > course, rates at something like 140 years.  
...

> Secondly, "rates at something like 140 years" doing what? 
...
> Anyone can say this kind of thing. Come to think of it, I rate my
> personal prints at 263 years, no, wait, 287 years.
> 
> I'm sorry if this particular example raise my hackles, I'm sure Harald
> Johnson is an expert and writes great books and makes great prints.
> But it's becoming more and more apparent to me, as this stuff gets
> more and more complex, that a huge market has openned up for
> proffesional givers of advice, and groups like this become more and
> more necessary for us. A bit of skepticism may be in order these days.
> Tyler

While I agree with your comments on so called experts and the bigger
value of these groups, that short quote is not enough evidence to dump
on Harald. I don't have the book here, but as I recall, Harald does
explain the basis for the numbers.  

BTW - Harald would agree on the value of these groups, I think he
started the long-running "Digital Fine Arts" email list, and he
contributes to several lists. His posts may be a better way to judge
his expertise.  His website is Digital Printing and Imaging Resource:

http://www.dpandi.com/index.html

Looks like I need to make amends for my bad mood yesterday. Harald's
quote was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. It could have
been a quote from Andrew Rodney or Jeff Schewe or anyone else that
caught my critical gaze...
I am aware of Harald's stature and website and book, etc.. However,
without "dumping" on him, I do stand by the basics of what I said
regarding the two specific issues, but with a little smiley face.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "brucenorikane"
<bnorikane@m...> wrote:

>  "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Graham"
> > <gebilwil@n...> wrote:
> > > maybe so, but in Harald Johnson's book B&W using all std UC  inks,
> > including color of 
> > > course, rates at something like 140 years.  
> ...
> 
> > Secondly, "rates at something like 140 years" doing what? 
> ...
> > Anyone can say this kind of thing. Come to think of it, I rate my
> > personal prints at 263 years, no, wait, 287 years.
> > 
> > I'm sorry if this particular example raise my hackles, I'm sure Harald
> > Johnson is an expert and writes great books and makes great prints.
> > But it's becoming more and more apparent to me, as this stuff gets
> > more and more complex, that a huge market has openned up for
> > proffesional givers of advice, and groups like this become more and
> > more necessary for us. A bit of skepticism may be in order these days.
> > Tyler
> 
> While I agree with your comments on so called experts and the bigger
> value of these groups, that short quote is not enough evidence to dump
> on Harald. I don't have the book here, but as I recall, Harald does
> explain the basis for the numbers.  
> 
> BTW - Harald would agree on the value of these groups, I think he
> started the long-running "Digital Fine Arts" email list, and he
> contributes to several lists. His posts may be a better way to judge
> his expertise.  His website is Digital Printing and Imaging Resource:
> 
> http://www.dpandi.com/index.html