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"Digital zone system" via filters (?)

"Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-08 by Paul Roark

I've occasionally made references to some tricks that might be able to
expand the digital dynamic range.  I think it is time that this group focus
on one of these in particular.

 

A small group of off-list B&W shooters has been pursuing an idea that was
originally proposed by Charlie Bustamante and Lloyd Baggs.  Tom Baker, Lloyd
and I have been trying to follow up on Charlie's idea with both promising
and mixed results.  Based on some outstanding prints shown to me that Llyod
made, and the elegance of the concept, I think there is potential, and I
think this group has the expertise to push the idea - forward or into the
dumpster if that is where it belongs.

 

The basic idea is very similar to what we did to solve the problems of the
early 4-ink printers.  Rather than have 3 color inks fire at once, we
partitioned the inks.

 

So, what I've called the "digital zone system" (admittedly in part just to
get peoples' attention) is the use of filters to partition the scene's
dynamic range among the color sensors.  The interaction of filtration over
the lens and the existing filtration over the individual RGB sensors results
in differential neutral densities that spreads the sensor responses.

 

Basically, the further one wants to push down the blue sensitivity to
capture highlights, the stronger the yellow filtration needs to be.  The
more one want to raise the red sensor sensitivity, the more magenta one adds
to hold the green back.

 

Just using the filters I have on hand, I think I've increased the dynamic
range of the Canon by 2 stops.  I have posted a quick and dirty sample shot
comparison at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/8-30-Sample.jpg .

 

As I also explain at the bottom of my Index at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm, these shots were taken with the
Digital Rebel on auto exposure, and they were processed in CS2 at the
default settings.  More could probably have been seen if the processing had
been tweaked.

 

Needless to say, there is a lot of refining, testing, and calibration to be
done.  It may be that there is nothing here, but Charlie and Lloyd's basic
idea of filtration as a way to get more dynamic range seems to have some
merit.

 

The threads and issues we've been discussion on the forum relate to this and
have already been very helpful in understanding how this might work and the
limits of it.  

 

As I've found in other contexts, the green pixels seem to be the most
important, probably due to their larger total area and capacity.  The R & B
are the secondary ones that might pick up the more marginal parts of the
image.  When the big green "buckets" overflow, the smaller ones seem to be
more impacted than when one of the small ones overflows.  So, keeping the
green range from clipping too badly seems like a good idea.  I've ordered an
85B (Heliopan KR15) that may be the first level of partitioning.

 

The Kodak book/pamphlet on filters is most helpful.

 

To avoid overkill in this post, I'll stop for now.

 

Have at it.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-08 by Tyler Boley

Great concept.
How to make the most use of three captured channels for monochrome.
A lot of considerations to toy with here.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I've occasionally made references to some tricks that might be able to
> expand the digital dynamic range.  I think it is time that this
group focus
> on one of these in particular...

RE: [Digital BW] "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-08 by John Moody

Paul,
If you have not tried it already, you may wish to use Dave Coffins DCRAW
program as an instructive tool.  In document mode, it can map the raw file
to a linear 16-bit grayscale image without demosaicing.  I think it sets
black to 0, but it outputs the offsets for reference; not exactly sure.
There is a red and blue scaling option that could help in the generation of
bayer pattern layer masks, by blowing that color pixel non-zero values to
white.
It would eliminate the behind the scenes things that ACR and other
converters do.  Perhaps that would allow you to numerically assess the
dynamic range of the raw image and compare it with ones where various
filters were used?  Perhaps this is all too geeky to be of value..
You can get compiled windows executables at
http://home.arcor.de/benjamin_lebsanft/

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 2:11 PM
To: DigitalB&WPrint
Subject: [Digital BW] "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

I've occasionally made references to some tricks that might be able to
expand the digital dynamic range.  I think it is time that this group focus
on one of these in particular.



A small group of off-list B&W shooters has been pursuing an idea that was
originally proposed by Charlie Bustamante and Lloyd Baggs.  Tom Baker, Lloyd
and I have been trying to follow up on Charlie's idea with both promising
and mixed results.  Based on some outstanding prints shown to me that Llyod
made, and the elegance of the concept, I think there is potential, and I
think this group has the expertise to push the idea - forward or into the
dumpster if that is where it belongs.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-08 by Tom Baker

DCRAW is the tool that Charlie and Lloyd have been using with the filtration.  I don't know of another RAW processor that offers the advantages of DCRAW.  However, Raw Drop is apparently based on DCRAW, and adds a graphical interface.  It isn't, however, as flexible as DCRAW itself.
 
Tom Baker


John Moody <moodymz3@...> wrote:
Paul,
If you have not tried it already, you may wish to use Dave Coffins DCRAW
program as an instructive tool. In document mode, it can map the raw file
to a linear 16-bit grayscale image without demosaicing. I think it sets
black to 0, but it outputs the offsets for reference; not exactly sure.
There is a red and blue scaling option that could help in the generation of
bayer pattern layer masks, by blowing that color pixel non-zero values to
white.
It would eliminate the behind the scenes things that ACR and other
converters do. Perhaps that would allow you to numerically assess the
dynamic range of the raw image and compare it with ones where various
filters were used? Perhaps this is all too geeky to be of value..
You can get compiled windows executables at
http://home.arcor.de/benjamin_lebsanft/

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 2:11 PM
To: DigitalB&WPrint
Subject: [Digital BW] "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

I've occasionally made references to some tricks that might be able to
expand the digital dynamic range. I think it is time that this group focus
on one of these in particular.



A small group of off-list B&W shooters has been pursuing an idea that was
originally proposed by Charlie Bustamante and Lloyd Baggs. Tom Baker, Lloyd
and I have been trying to follow up on Charlie's idea with both promising
and mixed results. Based on some outstanding prints shown to me that Llyod
made, and the elegance of the concept, I think there is potential, and I
think this group has the expertise to push the idea - forward or into the
dumpster if that is where it belongs.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-09 by schrochem

Interesting read Paul. I was just wondering what advantage this has 
over just using "filters" in Photoshop? 
Now to pose a question I have been wondering about: if a sensor were 
made specifically for B&W, what would be changed?  Admitedly a novice 
in this area, I am merely thinking out loud here.  If we knew what 
would be changed perhaps there is a filter set that can be used 
to "alter" what the sensor sees.....which I guess was the reason for 
your email, LOL. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of 
a "standard" filtration set for most B&W situations instead of 
fiddling around with different filters for each shot.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

snip
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> To avoid overkill in this post, I'll stop for now.
> 
>  
> 
> Have at it.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-09 by Truman Prevatt

What filtration does is to attenuate specific wavelengths of light. For 
example the yellow filters will attenuate blue light the "12" will 
attenuate more blue light than the "8".  This has the effect of changing 
the relations of the light power of the colors in the scene on the 
sensor. For example B&W film - and the same would apply for monochrome 
CCD sensors - various levels of yellow filtering can be used to darken 
the areas of primarly blue light ( the sky and areas lit primarly with 
skylight, i.e. the shadows vs. the other aeas ).

What I take away from the thread this type of filtering during image 
capture could be an advantage since it might compress the dynamic range 
in the image. The effect of this filtering can then be inverted in 
follow on processing. This inversion would probably work pretty well for 
B&W - I did some playing aroun with it about 3 years ago. On the other 
hand the inversion would probably be very problematic if a color image 
was your desire.

One the other hand I am not sure it will buy you much most of the time. 
For example in the example above, in general the sky is not the brightes 
area in a scene - hence the exposure won't be dictated by the sky. The 
yellow filter will, however, lower the values of the shadows lit by 
skylight (primarly blue) which may actually increase the dynamic range 
requirement if the shadows are important to the shot. Also the use of a 
yellow filter will reduce (one the average) by 1/2 the light power 
hitting the sensor and hence would require a slower shutter speed and/or 
lower f-stop.

In my experimentation a few years ago, I didn't see that it made much 
difference. However, I must admit that I was more interesting in 
determining how the use of the traditional B&W filters could be used to 
change the color make up of the captured image and how that related to 
filtering after the fact and how that related to the final B&W image. I 
didn't do in dynamic range test.

With film we have many options to expand or compress the dynamic range 
of the film through development. The dynamic range of film can be 
expanded quite a bit by using different developers, different dilutions, 
two part development, different agitation, etc. In digital the dynamic 
range we get is that offered by the sensor and the electronics in the 
circuit. You get what the designers give you.  I would expect that in 
the next 5 years we will see improvments in dynamic range of the 
sensors. It seems till now the camera have been playing the "megapixel" 
game rather than increasing the dynamic range of the pixels. Today the 
improvments in more pixels - at least in the DSLR - seemed to have 
reached the level of dimishing marginal returns. Now maybe someone will 
concentrate on the sensitivity and dynamic range of the sensor and 
associated electronics.

Truman

schrochem wrote:

>Interesting read Paul. I was just wondering what advantage this has 
>over just using "filters" in Photoshop? 
>Now to pose a question I have been wondering about: if a sensor were 
>made specifically for B&W, what would be changed?  Admitedly a novice 
>in this area, I am merely thinking out loud here.  If we knew what 
>would be changed perhaps there is a filter set that can be used 
>to "alter" what the sensor sees.....which I guess was the reason for 
>your email, LOL. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of 
>a "standard" filtration set for most B&W situations instead of 
>fiddling around with different filters for each shot.
>
>Scott
>  
>

-- 

"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create 
the universe."

- Carl Sagan

Re: "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-09 by scott_now_coming

<I have been wondering about: if a sensor were
made specifically for B&W, what would be changed?>

MegaVision is supposed to release a new line of camera backs ( "E" 
series) and they can be ordered in a "Monochrome" only version.

MegaVision web-site is useless, though. I heard about it in the 
Shutterbug PMA 2005 Report, June issue, page 90, second column.

These "mono" versions don'y use blur filters. Should be a plus.

The backs will be availible in 6, 11, and 22 megapixle versions.

Sound promising.

Scott

[Digital BW] Re: "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-09 by scott_now_coming

<You get what the designers give you. I would expect that in
the next 5 years we will see improvments in dynamic range of the
sensors. >

I'm hearing that future cameras will probably use a design that will 
use "HDR" technology like what is CS2.

The camera will process three or so images "in-camera" into on final 
image.

Scott

RE: [Digital BW] Re: "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-09 by Paul Roark

> I was just wondering what advantage this has
> over just using "filters" in Photoshop?

The information must be captured in the fist place.  So, it's a very
different issue.



> ... if a sensor were made specifically for B&W, what would be changed?

If the sensors are all the same, a monochrome back might not have any more
dynamic range.  The Megavision back is said to have a very large range, but
time will tell.  I expect it'll be mega bucks.  Economies of scale being
what they are, making electronics for small markets is an expensive
proposition.

> ... I was thinking more along the lines of
> a "standard" filtration set for most B&W situations instead of
> fiddling around with different filters for each shot.

Ideally, we'd want the sensor range to fit the scene as closely as possible.
It may be that a compromise filter is a good start.  This is all very
experimental at this point.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Re: "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-09 by Paul Roark

>...
> What I take away from the thread this type of filtering during image
> capture could be an advantage since it might compress the dynamic range
> in the image. The effect of this filtering can then be inverted in
> follow on processing.

Yes, and even the default raw processing might work to a certain extent.  I
hope CS2's raw processor is sufficient, because it's more accessible (easier
to deal with) than some.  

> This inversion would probably work pretty well for B&W ...
> ... probably be very problematic if a color image was your desire.

Definitely not for color.


> ...
> yellow filter will, however, lower the values of the shadows lit by
> skylight (primarly blue) which may actually increase the dynamic range
> requirement if the shadows are important to the shot.

One could argue that we'd be better off using bluish filters to compress the
dynamic range of the scene.  I most often us orange filters with film and am
oriented in that direction for aesthetic reasons.  I'm uncertain what the
camera filtration effects will be on our Photoshop "filtering" to achieve
these aesthetic effects.

Of course, any filtration will require longer exposures.

 
> With film we have many options to expand or compress the dynamic range
> of the film through development...

A major loss with digital.

> In digital the dynamic
> range we get is that offered by the sensor and the electronics in the
> circuit. You get what the designers give you.  I would expect that in
> the next 5 years we will see improvments in dynamic range of the
> sensors...


The Fuji DSLR is the first I know of for general photography that is really
on the market.  I'm sure the work-around using filters, even if it proves
useful now, will become obsolete in time.  But, for now, what do we do when
bracketing won't work?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-09 by Truman Prevatt

Paul Roark wrote:

>
>
>One could argue that we'd be better off using bluish filters to compress the
>dynamic range of the scene.  I most often us orange filters with film and am
>oriented in that direction for aesthetic reasons.  I'm uncertain what the
>camera filtration effects will be on our Photoshop "filtering" to achieve
>these aesthetic effects.
>
>Of course, any filtration will require longer exposures.
>
>  
>
Using mostly "skylight" for the image capture might well be the best way 
to compress the scene dynamic range. However, it will also accentuate 
scattering off of water vaper in the sky of landscape scens and will 
most likely have a overall negative effect.

Truman

-- 

"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create 
the universe."

- Carl Sagan

Re: [Digital BW] Re: "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-09 by Tom Baker

Scott  -
 
For b&w this approach may actually provide a greater useful range than a b&w only sensor.
 
Tom Baker

schrochem <schrochem@...> wrote:
Interesting read Paul. I was just wondering what advantage this has 
over just using "filters" in Photoshop? 
Now to pose a question I have been wondering about: if a sensor were 
made specifically for B&W, what would be changed? Admitedly a novice 
in this area, I am merely thinking out loud here. If we knew what 
would be changed perhaps there is a filter set that can be used 
to "alter" what the sensor sees.....which I guess was the reason for 
your email, LOL. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of 
a "standard" filtration set for most B&W situations instead of 
fiddling around with different filters for each shot.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 

wrote:

snip

> To avoid overkill in this post, I'll stop for now.
> 
> 
> 
> Have at it.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-09 by Jeff Medkeff

schrochem wrote:


> Now to pose a question I have been wondering about: if a sensor were 
> made specifically for B&W, what would be changed?

I'd propose an answer to this question. Such a sensor would have no 
Bayer mosaic, and would have a user-removable IR blocking filter (or no 
blocking filter at all). In my ideal camera, it would have an 
anti-aliasing filter (referred to as "blur" filter here earlier), though.

This would send B&W photographers back to their color filters, of course 
- which I think would be a good thing in many respects.

Regarding expense: Such sensors are made by the thousands; Sony is an 
especially prominent supplier. Such a camera would still be more 
expensive than a color version, but I don't see any obvious reason for 
it to be vastly more so. Considering the sensor types that Nikon were 
using about a year or year and a half ago, there were some off the shelf 
non-Bayer Sony sensors that looked very close to what was being used, 
down to being pin-compatible. This suggests to me that Nikon might 
pretty easily substitute one of these for the sensors they were using, 
and issue a B&W version of an existing camera. Not sure if this could 
easily be done by Canon or not.


> If we knew what 
> would be changed perhaps there is a filter set that can be used 
> to "alter" what the sensor sees.....

For a "standard" filter to use with a Bayer mosaic, I would think that 
you'd want a green-pass filter with an asymmetrical U-shaped extinction 
curve - which would block, say, 75% of red and 50% of blue. And you'd 
want the inverse of that filter; a green-block that passes red and blue 
to those proportions.

Just scanning through one of my catalogs here I think this is going to 
be pretty hard to find at reasonable cost.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

RE: [Digital BW] Re: "Digital zone system" via filters (?)

2005-07-09 by Paul Roark

Just a couple of quick notes.

The KR15-85B arrived last night.  A quick test looks like it adds only about
1/2 stop range.

The Kodak Wratten CC filters might be good ones to use for testing.  There
is a lot of variety there, and they, like only the Heliopan and B+W glass
filters, can be stacked without serious image problems.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] "Digital ZS" - The Future (?)

2005-07-10 by Clayton Jones

Hello Jeff,

>>...if a sensor were made specifically for B&W...

>...Such sensors are made by the thousands...

I'd like to share my personal pet prediction.  This is not based on
any technical knowledge, just pure hunch and speculation.   I've had
this idea for over a year and it won't go away.  I predict that
someday we'll have cameras with switchable plug-in sensors.  Here's
why:

To me the biggest difference from film is that we could put any film
we wanted in our cameras - a huge range of choices.  With digi we're
stuck with whatever we get.  That is an enormous restriction,
especially for such expensive cameras.

Makers must constantly evolve their products to compete.  Where will
they go?  Someone pointed out that once the MP race hits diminishing
returns they'll turn to improving the DR and other attributes of the
sensors themselves.  I agree, but what comes after that?

I think that someone eventually will design a plugin sensor that will
have a standard pinout, at least within their own cameras.  They will
make several sensors, just a few at first; color and BW.  It
will evolve to having choices of different MP sizes with
correspondingly different size wells, with correspondingly different
noise and DR ratings (since all the sensors will be the same size). 
Perhaps even different BW sensitivities such as IR and panchromatic.

Each plugin sensor package will of necessity carry its own onboard
firmware.  The camera will just have enough image processing code to
trigger the sensor logic and transfer the data to the memory card
(which might mean lower "body only" camera prices).  This means the
sensor processing firmware will have a standard API.

A standard pinout and API will open up a vigorous 3rd party market for
sensors for these cameras (think Sony, Matsushita and Kodak), and
we'll eventually have a large range of choices.

The first company to make such a camera will likely sell tons of cams
(especially if they work behind the scenes with 3p sensor makers so
there is a wider range of sensors out of the starting gate)  because
the benefits will be obvious.  I predict K-M will do it because
Minolta has always been innovative.  Other makers will have to folow
suit, and it's possible the pinout and API will become industry-wide
(that one I'm not so sure about, but what a huge difference it would
make - the 3p sensor industry would be enormous).

This will most likely take some years to happen, but I think it's
inevitable.

NOTE: I cringe in fear that by posting this I will start a huge thread
in this forum.  I hope not.  I hope people will just think about it
and put it away to wait and see if it ever happens.  Please use
restraint and don't have a long drawn out discussion of these ideas. 
I'm sharing this because it fascinates me and I think others here may
appreciate it - but this is supposed to be a printing forum.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] "Digital ZS" - The Future (?)

2005-07-10 by Scott McLoughlin

PC's (and some minis/workstations) have been this way. A standard
bus architecture, some boot firmware and then a horizontal, component
oriented industry. Separates alot of engineering and manufacturing
(e.g., Intel, nVidia, Seagate, etc.) from marketing/logistics/fulfillment
(e.g., Dell et al).

I don't know if the economics make it worthwhile (vs. the computer
industry), but if one of the big computer chip houses got into making
sensors, things might well shape up like this someday.

Scott

Clayton Jones wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hello Jeff,
>
> >>...if a sensor were made specifically for B&W...
>
> >...Such sensors are made by the thousands...
>
> I'd like to share my personal pet prediction. This is not based on
> any technical knowledge, just pure hunch and speculation. I've had
> this idea for over a year and it won't go away. I predict that
> someday we'll have cameras with switchable plug-in sensors. Here's
> why:
>
> To me the biggest difference from film is that we could put any film
> we wanted in our cameras - a huge range of choices. With digi we're
> stuck with whatever we get. That is an enormous restriction,
> especially for such expensive cameras.
>
> Makers must constantly evolve their products to compete. Where will
> they go? Someone pointed out that once the MP race hits diminishing
> returns they'll turn to improving the DR and other attributes of the
> sensors themselves. I agree, but what comes after that?
>
> I think that someone eventually will design a plugin sensor that will
> have a standard pinout, at least within their own cameras. They will
> make several sensors, just a few at first; color and BW. It
> will evolve to having choices of different MP sizes with
> correspondingly different size wells, with correspondingly different
> noise and DR ratings (since all the sensors will be the same size).
> Perhaps even different BW sensitivities such as IR and panchromatic.
>
> Each plugin sensor package will of necessity carry its own onboard
> firmware. The camera will just have enough image processing code to
> trigger the sensor logic and transfer the data to the memory card
> (which might mean lower "body only" camera prices). This means the
> sensor processing firmware will have a standard API.
>
> A standard pinout and API will open up a vigorous 3rd party market for
> sensors for these cameras (think Sony, Matsushita and Kodak), and
> we'll eventually have a large range of choices.
>
> The first company to make such a camera will likely sell tons of cams
> (especially if they work behind the scenes with 3p sensor makers so
> there is a wider range of sensors out of the starting gate) because
> the benefits will be obvious. I predict K-M will do it because
> Minolta has always been innovative. Other makers will have to folow
> suit, and it's possible the pinout and API will become industry-wide
> (that one I'm not so sure about, but what a huge difference it would
> make - the 3p sensor industry would be enormous).
>
> This will most likely take some years to happen, but I think it's
> inevitable.
>
> NOTE: I cringe in fear that by posting this I will start a huge thread
> in this forum. I hope not. I hope people will just think about it
> and put it away to wait and see if it ever happens. Please use
> restraint and don't have a long drawn out discussion of these ideas.
> I'm sharing this because it fascinates me and I think others here may
> appreciate it - but this is supposed to be a printing forum.
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>
>
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Specialty cameras and hight costs...

2005-07-14 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Medkeff
<medkeff@g...> wrote:
> schrochem wrote:
> 
> 
> > Now to pose a question I have been wondering about: if a sensor were 
> > made specifically for B&W, what would be changed?
> 
> I'd propose an answer to this question. Such a sensor would have no 
> Bayer mosaic, and would have a user-removable IR blocking filter (or no 
> blocking filter at all). In my ideal camera, it would have an 
> anti-aliasing filter (referred to as "blur" filter here earlier),
though.
> 
> This would send B&W photographers back to their color filters, of
course 
> - which I think would be a good thing in many respects.
> 
> Regarding expense: Such sensors are made by the thousands; Sony is an 
> especially prominent supplier. Such a camera would still be more 
> expensive than a color version, but I don't see any obvious reason for 
> it to be vastly more so.

The high cost is because of the low quantities. Look at the
Epson/Cosina/Voigtlander RD-1. Same sensor (or as near enough as makes
no nevermind) to the Nikon D70. Both are based on $200-300 film bodies
(Nikon N75, Bessa R3). But one costs $3000, the other $800. The D70
sells in the millions, so it's cheaper to manufacture. But more
importantly, it's cheaper to distribute, to design (better ratio of
R&D $ to sales $).

> Considering the sensor types that Nikon were 
> using about a year or year and a half ago, there were some off the
shelf 
> non-Bayer Sony sensors that looked very close to what was being used, 
> down to being pin-compatible. This suggests to me that Nikon might 
> pretty easily substitute one of these for the sensors they were using, 
> and issue a B&W version of an existing camera. Not sure if this could 
> easily be done by Canon or not.

Considering that Canon makes their own sensors. "hello, production.
Leave the Bayer filter off a thousand 20D sensors, we want to market
test a B&W camera".

> > If we knew what 
> > would be changed perhaps there is a filter set that can be used 
> > to "alter" what the sensor sees.....
> 
> For a "standard" filter to use with a Bayer mosaic, I would think that 
> you'd want a green-pass filter with an asymmetrical U-shaped extinction 
> curve - which would block, say, 75% of red and 50% of blue. And you'd 
> want the inverse of that filter; a green-block that passes red and blue 
> to those proportions.
> 
> Just scanning through one of my catalogs here I think this is going to 
> be pretty hard to find at reasonable cost.

Been there, done that.

Get the curves as csv tables (both Schott and Hoya will send them to
you that way) then write a relatively simple program to take your
desired curve and locate the best match from all the stacks of two
filters. That gives you tens of thousands of combinations, and one
will be a pretty good match.

Re: [Digital BW] "Digital ZS" - The Future (?)

2005-07-14 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Jeff,
> 
> >>...if a sensor were made specifically for B&W...
> 
> >...Such sensors are made by the thousands...
> 
> I'd like to share my personal pet prediction.  This is not based on
> any technical knowledge, just pure hunch and speculation.   I've had
> this idea for over a year and it won't go away.  I predict that
> someday we'll have cameras with switchable plug-in sensors.  Here's
> why:

I'm sorry this idea "won't go away". That can be troubling. Maybe I
can help...

> To me the biggest difference from film is that we could put any film
> we wanted in our cameras - a huge range of choices.  With digi we're
> stuck with whatever we get.  That is an enormous restriction,
> especially for such expensive cameras.
> 
> Makers must constantly evolve their products to compete.  Where will
> they go?  Someone pointed out that once the MP race hits diminishing
> returns they'll turn to improving the DR and other attributes of the
> sensors themselves.  I agree, but what comes after that?
> 
> I think that someone eventually will design a plugin sensor that will
> have a standard pinout, at least within their own cameras.  They will
> make several sensors, just a few at first; color and BW.  It
> will evolve to having choices of different MP sizes with
> correspondingly different size wells, with correspondingly different
> noise and DR ratings (since all the sensors will be the same size). 
> Perhaps even different BW sensitivities such as IR and panchromatic.

Nope. Just combine the "wells" electronically on the sensor, or with
the camera's DSP, into larger wells with less noise and more dynamic
range. The Foveon X3 sensor can do this onboard the chip, and the
results can be pretty interesting.

> Each plugin sensor package will of necessity carry its own onboard
> firmware.  The camera will just have enough image processing code to
> trigger the sensor logic and transfer the data to the memory card
> (which might mean lower "body only" camera prices).  This means the
> sensor processing firmware will have a standard API.
> 
> A standard pinout and API will open up a vigorous 3rd party market for
> sensors for these cameras (think Sony, Matsushita and Kodak), and
> we'll eventually have a large range of choices.
> 
> The first company to make such a camera will likely sell tons of cams

Or fail miseralby, in very short order.

> (especially if they work behind the scenes with 3p sensor makers so
> there is a wider range of sensors out of the starting gate)  because
> the benefits will be obvious.  I predict K-M will do it because
> Minolta has always been innovative.

No, they've just been masters of creating an appearance of innovation.

> Other makers will have to folow
> suit, and it's possible the pinout and API will become industry-wide
> (that one I'm not so sure about, but what a huge difference it would
> make - the 3p sensor industry would be enormous).

Totally unfeasable. The interface requirements for different sensor
technologies are too different. So are requirements for things like
channel count.
 
> This will most likely take some years to happen, but I think it's
> inevitable.

What's inevitable is that cameras will hit a point where you no longer
look longingly at next years model, and it starts taking 5 years (and
someday, 10 years or more) before your existing camera feels "long in
the tooth".
 
> NOTE: I cringe in fear that by posting this I will start a huge thread
> in this forum.  I hope not.  I hope people will just think about it
> and put it away to wait and see if it ever happens.  Please use
> restraint and don't have a long drawn out discussion of these ideas. 
> I'm sharing this because it fascinates me and I think others here may
> appreciate it - but this is supposed to be a printing forum.

I'm very sorry, but that seems a bit "do as I say, not as I do" to me.

Now, if you're interested in why the interchangable sensor isn't going
to happen, check out items 8 and 9 ...

http://www.swissarmyfork.com/digital_photography_ifaq.htm

9) How about a DSLR with interchangeable sensors?

It's nearly impossible. You have to interchange most of the digital
camera, not just the sensor. Different sensors have different
interface voltages, different numbers of read channels, different
clocking rates. So whatever carries the sensor must also carry a
regulated power supply and the proper number and type of A/D
converters. Now, since the different sensor types have radically
different signal processing needs (Fuji diagonal matrix, Foveon
stacked color interpolation, Nikon D1X 2:1 aspect compression, etc)
you either have to put all that on the onboard processor, or make it
uploadable.

This is assuming that a processor that can do one of those algorithms
in reasonable time can do all the others in reasonable time, too. If
not, you need to make the processor bigger (more expensive, more heat,
less battery life) and waste that power when a particular sensor
doesn't need it.

Then you get into shutter requirements. Does the sensor have an
electronic shutter like Nikon D1X, D1H, Canon 1D, so the mechanical
shutter can "relax" and just serve as a between shots "blind" for the
sensor? Or does the shutter need to be a "real" shutter like in Canon
10D or D1s, Nikon D2H, Kodak 14n, etc.

Then there's details like Fuji CCDs reflect enough light so they can
be used for TTL metering, but Nikon and Canon sensors don't, so they
require preflash systems (Canon E-TTL, Nikon D-TTL).

And if your "new" sensor doesn't have the same size as the old sensor,
you need a new viewfinder mask.

8) Why aren't there digital backs for film SLRs?

Sure, it's a good question. You've got a nice film SLR, a Nikon F5,
F100, or F4, a Canon EOS 1V or EOS 3, a Minolta Maxxum 7 or 9. Why not
just slap on a digital back and shoot away? Once you actually start
looking at how you'd do it, you see that there are overwhelming
reasons why a fully integrated camera is preferable to a digital back.
Compared to a full DSLR, a film SLR and digital back has increased
cost, decreased strength (or increased weight), poor ergonomics, and a
lack of desirable features.

8.1) Size and weight

A film SLR + digital back is heavier and bulkier than an integrated
DSLR. The back of a film SLR is lightweight. It's only function is
keeping light out, and supporting the pressure plate. Neither of these
are precision functions, and the attachment mechanism between front
and back reflects this. To keep the back and front from flexing
independently of each other (destroying alignment) the back needs to
be made stronger (heavier, more expensive) than the digital section of
an integrated camera. Unlike the integrated camera, a digital back
isn't anchored to multiple points of the camera's main chassis. The
best it can do is try to grab onto the flimsy back hinge and latch
points, and go under the camera, to screw into the tripod socket.

Then there's the problem of making a weatherproof (and dust proof)
seal between a heavy, poorly anchored back and the main camera, when
the digital back is, literally, hanging off the back of the camera,
doing it's best to pull the seal apart.

8.2) No "full frame" digital backs

You cannot build a full frame 24x36mm digital back for a conventional
35mm SLR (or a medium format SLR, for that matter). The SLR is
designed to position the film at the focal plane of the lens. To do
this, the film (which is wider than 24mm) rides on polished film rails
which hold it a fraction of a mm from the back plate of the camera.
This back plate has a 24x36mm rectangular cutout leading to the
shutter and mirror box.

In a digital SLR, the silicon surface of the sensor itself must be at
the focal plane of the lens. The problem is that there are several
things in front of the surface of the sensor. First is the cover glass
of the sensor. Second is a stack of optical filters: the anti-aliasing
filter, the IR "hot mirror filter", etc. And finally, the metal frame
that holds it all together. The end result is a stack that it thicker
than the film rails.

So, in a digital back such as Leica's, the sensor is mounted to a
support structure that presses against the film rails, and the entire
sensor protrudes past the film rails into the 24mmx36mm cutout, almost
to the shutter curtains. (This is also how the Kodak digital backs for
Nikon and Canon bodies worked). The sensor's silicon "chip" is also
bigger than the "active area" that actually senses the image. The
image area is surrounded by buffers, shift registers, and the metal
leads "bonded" to the chip (that connect the chip to the outside
world), and a frame for the leads.

When you add the electronics, leads, and cover glass frame all
together, you're talking about a 4-5mm perimeter around the sensor.
The end result is that 1.36x crop sensor of the Leica back, with a
17.6x26.4mm active area, is about as big as you can cram into the
cutout and maintain that perimeter.

Now, if someone were to build a camera that had at least part of the
back plate (just past the film rails) removable, this new film camera
would be capable of being changed from film to full frame digital.
However, consider three "indicators" that no camera company will ever
build this new "digital friendly" film SLR. First, Canon say that
2003's DSLR sales have passed film SLR sales. Second, Nikon is now
launching all their "flagship" features (fastest 11 zones AF system,
fastest mirror and shutter) on a DSLR, the D2H, not on a film body.
There may not even be a film "flagship" F6 in the future. Third,
Olympus has re-entered the SLR market, with a digital only family. No
film body, and lenses that won't even cover film.

8.3) Awkward viewfinders

And, since the digital back isn't full frame, you need a viewfinder
mask. But the readouts in the viewfinder are going to stay where they
are now, so you'll have a big gap between the small, masked finder
image and the readouts. To make things worse, every integrated DSLR
launched since early 2003 (such as Nikon D2H, Olympus E-1, Canon 10D,
Pentax *ist) increases the viewfinder magnification, from a film SLR's
0.7x-0.8x, to a more comfortable 0.9x-1.0x. This offsets the "tunnel
vision" small viewfinder image of DSLRs.

8.4) Autofocus, exposure, and flash problems

Since the digital back isn't going to be full frame, you end up with
problems in the camera's auto exposure and AF systems. Modern SLRs
have metering systems with many zones distributed over the entire 35mm
frame, anywhere from the 21 zones of a Canon EOS 1V, to the 1002 zones
of a Nikon F5. Sure, you can mask off the finder, but you've also got
to "reprogram" the metering system, or it's going to meter things that
are outside the smaller "digital frame". No current film SLR has
provisions for such reprogramming.

AF is the same way. If you crop the finder, some of the AF zones are
either going to end up out of the frame, or uncomfortably close to the
edges of the frame. Neither of these are good developments.

And there's the little detail of TTL flash. Most cameras read the
flash exposure while the shutter is open, measuring the light that
reflects off the film. These sensors don't know how to read the
reflection from a CCD (and they may also be built to read an area
larger that the CCD, just like the exposure and autofocus systems
above). To counteract this, integrated DSLRs use a pre-flash based
system, where they fire reduced power pulses from the flash, before
exposure, and base the flash exposure on these readings. The Fuji S2
is the only DSLR that attempts to do "normal" TTL by looking at the
reflection from the sensor. This introduces other problems that are
beyond this discussion.

8.5) Ergonomics

Aside from the whole "bulkier and heavier" issue, the SLR + digital
back can't match the ergonomics of an integrated DSLR. There's no real
information flow between SLR and digital back, the SLR thinks it's
shooting film. So, any "digital" functions (like white balance, ISO
speed, and compression modes) have to be controlled purely by buttons
on the digital back and menus on the screen, while the "camera"
functions are operated via conventional controls.

How's this for awkward? To set the camera for ISO 400, first pull up
the ISO menu on the digital back, and set it for 400. Then "dial in"
ISO 400 on the camera's knobs so that the metering system and the
digital back will both be set to the same ISO, and you can meter. On
an integrated DSLR, one knob does it all.

A digital back won't give you any status readouts in the finder.
Integrated DSLRs typically show you how many shots are free in the
buffer and/or how many more you can get on the CF card. With a digital
back, the camera wouldn't even know that the buffer or CF card was
full: it would happily let you continue to take more pictures, which
would then be sent off into "electronic nowhere".

8.6) What about "Silicon Film"

8.7) Other "system" issues

Does the sensor have an electronic shutter like Nikon D1X, D1H, Canon
1D, so the mechanical shutter can "relax" and just serve as a between
shots "blind" for the sensor? It's wasted on a digital back. The film
SLR can't "know" that the sensor has these capabilities, and it
doesn't have controls or provisions for selecting a 1/500 sec X sync
and a 1/16,000 sec top exposure speed.

How does the digital back even know an exposure has happened? In a
DSLR, there's a sequence of events. You clear the sensor's buffers,
open the shutter, make the exposure, close the shutter, and
immediately transfer the captured image out of the sensor. It degrades
rapidly if left to sit in the sensor's storage cells. (This is the
same degradation that causes noise in long exposures on a DSLR). So
the digital back has to monitor the shutter somehow (infrared
reflections, sound, etc) to know when to clear and when to transfer an
image.

Most SLRs don't have much provision for powering a large accessory
like a digital back, so the digital back has to have its own power
source. Now we're into a system with multiple types of batteries and
chargers.

And, the last issue, which body do you make the digital back fit.
Nikon has two pro and serious amateur bodies, F5 and F100. Canon has
both EOS 3 and 1v.

Re: [Digital BW] Specialty cameras and hight costs...

2005-07-14 by Renan Lopes

The question is: Is it cheap because it sells or It sells because it is 
cheap!
Renan

koloshor wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> The high cost is because of the low quantities. Look at the
> Epson/Cosina/Voigtlander RD-1. Same sensor (or as near enough as makes
> no nevermind) to the Nikon D70. Both are based on $200-300 film bodies
> (Nikon N75, Bessa R3). But one costs $3000, the other $800. The D70
> sells in the millions, so it's cheaper to manufacture. But more
> importantly, it's cheaper to distribute, to design (better ratio of
> R&D $ to sales $).
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] "Digital ZS" - The Future (?)

2005-07-15 by Clayton Jones

Hello Koloshor,

Thanks for the reply.  Ring me up in 20 years and we'll compare notes
<g>.  


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] "Digital ZS" - The Future (?)

2005-07-25 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Koloshor,
> 
> Thanks for the reply.  Ring me up in 20 years and we'll compare notes
> <g>.  
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton

Hey Clayton, I will ;)

Seriously. I've done that before. I have a little file of people who say we'll settle something in 5 or 10 years. 20 is a bit more rare. But I've been online, in one form or other, for just over 30 years, so it's not inconceivable.

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.