Digital BW, The Print

I was just reading these tests of piezo inks 
(http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2K.htm) and was wondering if 
anyone here is concerned about using the portfolio black ink?  I
think I read on the inkjetmall website that over time it should fade 
to the approximate density of museum black but these tests makes it 
look much worse.  Any thoughts?

Jenny

I've used the portfolio black since it first came out. I've got a 
0.8x1.0m print in my front hall that was printed with the selenium tones 
and portfolio black. This print gets direct sunlight in the morning all 
year long. It's over two years old now, with no sign of fading. This is 
clearly not a scientific test, so make of it what you will.
--
Bruce Watson


byushooter wrote:

> I was just reading these tests of piezo inks
> (http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2K.htm) 
> <http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2K.htm%29> and was wondering if
> anyone here is concerned about using the portfolio black ink?  I
> think I read on the inkjetmall website that over time it should fade
> to the approximate density of museum black but these tests makes it
> look much worse.  Any thoughts?
>
> Jenny
>
>
>
>

Those Livick so called tests make everything look worse. If you are going to exhibit your 
work in the back yard or in intesnse high level uv radiation for long periods of time you 
might have a concern. Art work should never be subjected to so much uv. Put your gelatin 
silver prints in the backyard and see what happens to them.





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" <jellerbe@j...> 
wrote:

> I was just reading these tests of piezo inks 
> (http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2K.htm) and was wondering if 
> anyone here is concerned about using the portfolio black ink?  I
> think I read on the inkjetmall website that over time it should fade 
> to the approximate density of museum black but these tests makes it 
> look much worse.  Any thoughts?
> 
> Jenny

Jenny,

About 18 months or so back, the issue of Portfolio Black fade 
resistance was discussed intensively on this forum. Try the search 
function and you may find lots of information. If I remember 
correctly, this controversy lead to the development of "museum" black 
by Piezography. A lot of PiezoTone users had switched their black 
inks to MIS Ebony because of this issue.

In short, this is old news.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" 
<jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> I was just reading these tests of piezo inks 
> (http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2K.htm) and was wondering if 
> anyone here is concerned about using the portfolio black ink?  I
> think I read on the inkjetmall website that over time it should 
fade 

> to the approximate density of museum black but these tests makes it 
> look much worse.  Any thoughts?
> 
> Jenny

Shilesh, actually it was the very original Piezotone K ink that lead
to the developement of Museum Black and Portfolio Black. Then there
were actualy three K inks available from them, these two mentioned,
and the original which was renamed Black Black, I believe. Though it
was the blackest it was also the least stable and has since been
dropped from the product line.
Those original problems are not related to the product now called
Portfolio Black.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani"
<shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:

> Jenny,
> 
> About 18 months or so back, the issue of Portfolio Black fade 
> resistance was discussed intensively on this forum. Try the search 
> function and you may find lots of information. If I remember 
> correctly, this controversy lead to the development of "museum" black 
> by Piezography. A lot of PiezoTone users had switched their black 
> inks to MIS Ebony because of this issue.
> 
> In short, this is old news.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" 
> <jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> > I was just reading these tests of piezo inks 
> > (http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2K.htm) and was wondering if 
> > anyone here is concerned about using the portfolio black ink?  I
> > think I read on the inkjetmall website that over time it should 
> fade 
> > to the approximate density of museum black but these tests makes it 
> > look much worse.  Any thoughts?
> > 
> > Jenny

I know this may start a bit of a outcry, but I have been using the  
portfolio black for over two years now. I have sample prints in a  
west facing window, getting direct afternoon sun, and compare them  
with sample prints made at the same time in dark storage. I do this  
intentionally to check on the status of portfolio black. There is no  
difference (visually) or shift to brown (visually).

On another note, I did have one print that went out to a clothing  
store and was framed and put in direct sunlight that did indeed go  
warm. I would say the biggest culprit in this case was the sealed  
frame (out-gassing) or the pollution from new clothing, rugs, and  
formaldehyde furniture fixtures. That's my guess. So it may not be  
all about the light exposure.
Mark



On Jul 14, 2005, at 1:04 PM, Shilesh Jani wrote:

> Jenny,
>
> About 18 months or so back, the issue of Portfolio Black fade
> resistance was discussed intensively on this forum. Try the search
> function and you may find lots of information. If I remember
> correctly, this controversy lead to the development of "museum" black
> by Piezography. A lot of PiezoTone users had switched their black
> inks to MIS Ebony because of this issue.
>
> In short, this is old news.
>
> Shilesh
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter"
> <jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> > I was just reading these tests of piezo inks
> > (http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2K.htm) and was wondering if
> > anyone here is concerned about using the portfolio black ink?  I
> > think I read on the inkjetmall website that over time it should
> fade
> > to the approximate density of museum black but these tests makes it
> > look much worse.  Any thoughts?
> >
> > Jenny
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So you are saying the portfolio black I use today is different from  
the one a while ago?
Mark

On Jul 14, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:



> Those original problems are not related to the product now called
> Portfolio Black.
> Tyler
>
>

So you are saying the portfolio black I use today is different from  
the one a while ago?
Mark

On Jul 14, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:




> Those original problems are not related to the product now called
> Portfolio Black.
> Tyler
>
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:
> I know this may start a bit of a outcry, but I have been using the  
> portfolio black for over two years now.

Yup, it's fine.
But I'm outraged anyway.
Tyler

Thanks. Does Jon state that too? Seems like he is pushing "stay away  
from anything except museum black".
Mark

On Jul 14, 2005, at 2:34 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
> <mark@c...> wrote:
> > I know this may start a bit of a outcry, but I have been using the
> > portfolio black for over two years now.
>
> Yup, it's fine.
> But I'm outraged anyway.
> Tyler
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines�  
> in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL  
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
> SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>  Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I sent the following letter to John, Piezography Tech support and the 
Piezography mailing list.


Open letter to Jon Cone,

I am concerned. Your web site says:

Why two blacks?

Museum Black (100% pure pigment) This ink has remarkable longevity and 
will not produce any visible fade (similar to all of our gray 
positions).

Portfolio Black (92% pigment, 8% metal complex)  This ink has about 1/2 
to 2/3 stop greater dMax than Museum Black. This ink also has a 
remarkable longevity which will eventually fade to approximately the 
final density of Museum Black. However, the fade rate for this ink is 
well below that of EPSON UltraChrome and other competing brands.

However, on the Livick web site you were reportedly quoted as saying:

"Portfolio black is not suitable for longevity. You probably should 
have checked the info on our site first. Museum Black is 100% pigment 
and is probably the ink you should be using. Portfolio Black was 
designed for the original plugin or the original BW pro which put ink 
under it. One could get by with a pigment/ hybrid ink when the darkest 
gray is deposited under it. With 8% metallic complex in it - its just 
not going to stand up to fade testing or long term exposure - hence the 
name "Portfolio" Black. If you are interested in longevity switch to 
Museum Black. It will stand up to the rest of the PiezoTone inks. Our 
new K7 ink will not offer a Portfolio version."

I have used your inks to print many, quite high priced prints for 
clients. I have chosen the Portfolio black with the assurances that 
they "will eventually fade to approximately the final density of Museum 
Black." Why wouldn't  want them to have higher density until they reach 
that state I reasoned.

Now you seem to be disavowing and even discarding Portfolio Black. If 
PK fades down to the same level of MK then can we expect MK to fade to 
the same level of PK?

Once again, there seems to be reason to question the reliability of 
your products that I am staking my good name and business upon.

I would appreciate a response.

James Haney
Lightcatcher Photography


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:
> Thanks. Does Jon state that too? Seems like he is pushing "stay away  
> from anything except museum black".
> Mark

I think it's because the newest "official" methods of printing with
his inks...

StudioPrint
profiles with the Epson RGB driver
ImagePrint (barely aproved anymore?)

...do not allow a supporting ink underprint like the old plugin or
pro24 RIP did.

You can, however, do it with StudioPrint. It's not really mentioned
anywhere that I'm aware of, and it's not variable, but it's doable.
Other options like QTR or IJC/OPM would let you underink too.
But with no underink, original tonal relationships will be best
maintained over time with Museum K. However, I know folks like
yourself that have been using PortfolioK since it came out, with no
underink, with Prints wearing very well.
Who knows, I've had old Piezography ink prints on my walls for years,
that get a lot of open daylight (no direct sun) that still look great.
I suspect they will still look great for many years to come.

Tyler

How??? Million dollar question?

On Jul 14, 2005, at 4:29 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> You can, however, do it with StudioPrint. It's not really mentioned
> anywhere that I'm aware of, and it's not variable, but it's doable.

Sorry, no. Portfolio Black has always been the same to my knowledge.
However the original Piezotone K did indeed have a lot of reported problems, and I'm 
pretty sure that's the ink Shilesh mentioned as having a history on the lists. It was not 
called Portfolio black.
Due to the number of reports by Antonis and others about that ink, and no history I am 
aware of regarding problems with Portfolio K, my assumption is that the original ink is 
what Shilesh is thinking of.
Portfolio Black has always been Portfolio Black, but it did not exist yet when the original 
Piezotone black ink problems were being reported.
Have I sufficiently clouded the issue?
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@c...> wrote:

> So you are saying the portfolio black I use today is different from  
> the one a while ago?
> Mark
> 
> On Jul 14, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Those original problems are not related to the product now called
> > Portfolio Black.
> > Tyler
> >
> >
> >