Digital BW, The Print

Earlier I mentioned that I purchsed the Colorbyte Software ImagePrint 
4.0 software RIP to run one of the color printers in my office. By 
coincidence I found out the the RIP also supports Lyson and Cone Quad 
inksets. As a result of the matched densities, the RIP also will work 
with the MIS Full Spectrum inks.

The RIP was designed as a large format color printing RIP. It is 
available as a modular software package. That is you can buy ot to 
support a single printer, multiple printers, with or without 
postsrcipt support. The RIP starts at approx. $1,550.00 US, but from 
what I have been told a desktop printer version is just about ready 
for release at $750.00 US. The desktop version lacks the image layout 
features of the full RIP.

Out of the box the RIP comes with approximately 30 paper ICC 
profiles. All of the popular Hahnemuhle papers are there but they are 
under the Lyson tradename such as Lyson Standard Fine Art. The 
developer is adding papers all the time and they are placed on his 
website in a download area for customer use. They will also profile 
papers that you may need but have not been previously profiled.

A great asset of this RIP is that you can print a quadtone image to 
one printer and then print a second image to your color printer using 
the same software RIP. The RIP will print both single channel 
grayscale images as the Piezo driver, or it will print multi-channel  
RGB images in grayscale and do the conversion on the fly.

The biggest change in my workflow that I noticed, is that the printed 
image truly matches the printed image. The WYSIWYG aspect of this 
program is a great asset. The print quality is superb. Grayscale 
tones appear to have a special smooth flannel like appearance. 
Comparing this RIP to the Piezo driver is unfair and perhaps 
subjective because they both have different dither patterns. One 
thing that I did notice is that I am seeing shadow detail in my 
prints that I never saw before. The tones are smooth and do not 
exhibit any kind of banding. The best part of using this RIP is (and 
I will capitalize) THE BLACKS ARE THE BEST I HAVE SEEN! Yes, that is 
right, this RIP produces the deepest black densities that I have 
seen. A subjective comment as I have not measured the blacks, but I 
must say that they are superb. Finishing up a print recently I had to 
back off on the black density a bit.

The ImagePrint 4.0 RIP is a new entry into the grayscale quadtone 
market. It provides a new option to a market that lacks options. 
Comeptition in the long run is healthy and will mean that all of the 
players must develop new. better, and high quality products to stay 
ahead of the curve.

My best to all for a healthy, happy and above peace in the new year.

Mike

Thank you Mike for your wonderful review!

snip
> program is a great asset. The print quality is superb. Grayscale
> tones appear to have a special smooth flannel like appearance.

I like that... smooth like flannel.  I don't suppose you would know if the
desktop version will have the same output?  I have heard of the desktop
version on another list but worried that it would not be as good as the full
RIP.  Guess we will wait to hear reports once it is released.

> My best to all for a healthy, happy and above peace in the new year.

To you and yours also Mike.

Best Wishes,
Carolyn

Good report Mike. Sure sounds nice.

Hope you don't mind if I throw a few questions at you.

Are you saying that the RIP comes with profiles for quadtone (Hextone?)
printing from both grayscale and RGB mode? I assume you are using it with
piezo inks for grayscale printing, not color inks?

Are ink separation curves required?

Do you get dots in highlights?

Do you like it's dither better than the Epson driver?

Is it Mac compatible?

Todd

> Earlier I mentioned that I purchsed the Colorbyte Software ImagePrint
> 4.0 software RIP to run one of the color printers in my office. By
> coincidence I found out the the RIP also supports Lyson and Cone Quad
> inksets. As a result of the matched densities, the RIP also will work
> with the MIS Full Spectrum inks.
> 
> The RIP was designed as a large format color printing RIP. It is
> available as a modular software package. That is you can buy ot to
> support a single printer, multiple printers, with or without
> postsrcipt support. The RIP starts at approx. $1,550.00 US, but from
> what I have been told a desktop printer version is just about ready
> for release at $750.00 US. The desktop version lacks the image layout
> features of the full RIP.
> 
> Out of the box the RIP comes with approximately 30 paper ICC
> profiles. All of the popular Hahnemuhle papers are there but they are
> under the Lyson tradename such as Lyson Standard Fine Art. The
> developer is adding papers all the time and they are placed on his
> website in a download area for customer use. They will also profile
> papers that you may need but have not been previously profiled.
> 
> A great asset of this RIP is that you can print a quadtone image to
> one printer and then print a second image to your color printer using
> the same software RIP. The RIP will print both single channel
> grayscale images as the Piezo driver, or it will print multi-channel
> RGB images in grayscale and do the conversion on the fly.
> 
> The biggest change in my workflow that I noticed, is that the printed
> image truly matches the printed image. The WYSIWYG aspect of this
> program is a great asset. The print quality is superb. Grayscale
> tones appear to have a special smooth flannel like appearance.
> Comparing this RIP to the Piezo driver is unfair and perhaps
> subjective because they both have different dither patterns. One
> thing that I did notice is that I am seeing shadow detail in my
> prints that I never saw before. The tones are smooth and do not
> exhibit any kind of banding. The best part of using this RIP is (and
> I will capitalize) THE BLACKS ARE THE BEST I HAVE SEEN! Yes, that is
> right, this RIP produces the deepest black densities that I have
> seen. A subjective comment as I have not measured the blacks, but I
> must say that they are superb. Finishing up a print recently I had to
> back off on the black density a bit.
> 
> The ImagePrint 4.0 RIP is a new entry into the grayscale quadtone
> market. It provides a new option to a market that lacks options.
> Comeptition in the long run is healthy and will mean that all of the
> players must develop new. better, and high quality products to stay
> ahead of the curve.
> 
> My best to all for a healthy, happy and above peace in the new year.
> 
> Mike

too bad there is no way to share...

> From: Carolyn  Frayn <carolyn@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:02:28 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ImagePrint 4.0 Product Review
> 
> Thank you Mike for your wonderful review!
> 
> snip
>> program is a great asset. The print quality is superb. Grayscale
>> tones appear to have a special smooth flannel like appearance.
> 
> I like that... smooth like flannel.  I don't suppose you would know if the
> desktop version will have the same output?  I have heard of the desktop
> version on another list but worried that it would not be as good as the full
> RIP.  Guess we will wait to hear reports once it is released.
> 
>> My best to all for a healthy, happy and above peace in the new year.
> 
> To you and yours also Mike.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> Carolyn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
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> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
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> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> Good report Mike. Sure sounds nice.
> 
> Hope you don't mind if I throw a few questions at you.

Not at all, fire away.

> Are you saying that the RIP comes with profiles for quadtone 
(Hextone?)printing from both grayscale and RGB mode? I assume you are 
using it with piezo inks for grayscale printing, not color inks?

Yes, in the setup section you select your ink set from a list that 
includes Cone and Lyson Quadtones as well as other color pigment and 
dye sets.

I loaded up the MIS FS Quads to run the test.
 
> Are ink separation curves required?

No, you print just like you do with the Piezo driver, except that 
after saving the file in Photoshop you then open ImagePrint and run 
it from there. BTW, Imageprint has a full set of adjustment tools 
such as histograms, curve adjustments, etc.
 
> Do you get dots in highlights?

Nope, no dots at all. The dither is like a tight herringbone or 
basketweave type pattern. Not visible to my eye without at least a 4x 
loupe.
 
> Do you like it's dither better than the Epson driver?

Yes, I do. it results in very smooth tonal gradations. 

> Is it Mac compatible?

I think that there either is a Mac version or one is about to be 
released. You may want to check their website.

Mike

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...> 
wrote:
> too bad there is no way to share...

The software comes with a serial port dongle, just as the Cone 
PiezoBW24Pro RIP.

Keeps us hackers honest!

Mike

I agree Trish...


> too bad there is no way to share...

Todd,

Sorry, I missed a response to one of your questions.

You can in fact print a grayscale image from either a single channel 
grayscale file or an RGB multi-channel file. That is a color 
grayscale image can be sent to the RIP and printed utilizing the Quad 
tone inks. Or you can desaturate the color and print a grayscale RGB 
image. The choice is yours.

Last night a took a quick shot with my digital camera. I the sent the 
resulting 37mb tif file to the ImagePrint 4.0 RIP and printed it on 
the 7000 with the MIS FS inks. It was a lovely result considering 
that I did no manipulation of any kind.

Pretty cool.

MIke

Todd,

Sorry, I missed a response to one of your questions.

You can in fact print a grayscale image from either a single channel 
grayscale file or an RGB multi-channel file. That is a color 
grayscale image can be sent to the RIP and printed utilizing the Quad 
tone inks. Or you can desaturate the color and print a grayscale RGB 
image. The choice is yours.

Last night a took a quick shot with my digital camera. I the sent the 
resulting 37mb tif file to the ImagePrint 4.0 RIP and printed it on 
the 7000 with the MIS FS inks. It was a lovely result considering 
that I did no manipulation of any kind.

Pretty cool.

MIke

I must be getting old, sorry I dont think I was clear....

You can print from

1. A grayscale mode file
2. A desaturated RGB file
3. A color RGB file
4. A color cmyk file

All these can be printed with the selected ink profile of your choice 
which includes Quadtones or RGB color.

Mike

> The software comes with a serial port dongle, just as the Cone
> PiezoBW24Pro RIP.

wouldn't want to mess with those dongles...


again Mike, thanks for the information. It is always great reading your
posts... getting old or not! ;-)

C

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> 
> > The software comes with a serial port dongle, just as the Cone
> > PiezoBW24Pro RIP.
> 
> wouldn't want to mess with those dongles...
> 
> 
I'm with Carolyn. I have had some very nasty experiences with 
software that used dongles (little devices that plug into a parallel 
or serial port for copy protection). They are notorious for causing 
software conflicts and system crashes. I took a vow never to purchase 
software that required a dongle again. On that issue alone I would 
never buy ImagePrint or PiezoBW24Pro Rip. Plenty of other companies 
manage to protect their products without resorting to this decade old 
piece of junk.

My 2 cent rant on the topic.

Martin Wesley

on 12/12/01 9:31 AM, mkravit wrote:

> I must be getting old, sorry I dont think I was clear....
> 
> You can print from
> 
> 1. A grayscale mode file
> 2. A desaturated RGB file
> 3. A color RGB file
> 4. A color cmyk file
> 
> All these can be printed with the selected ink profile of your choice
> which includes Quadtones or RGB color.

You're doing a great job, very thorough!

I have one more question to you, then one to the crowd.

Have you tried printing a monochrome image (via any of the above 4 methods)
through color inks? If so, how's the neutrality across the scale? How does
it compare to your FS print overall? Same dither, etc. Anything stand out as
better or worse?

This next question is more to others who fade test. Has anyone printed BW
images with color pigments and done fade comparison tests against the MIS or
Piezo Carbon Quads?

With all this talk about different hued inksets, it sure would be great to
just print with color pigments and get our hues, and longevity too, out of
one printer. Between the cost of additional printers, CISs, inks, etc. that
would compensate for the cost of a good RIP with included profiles.

Do we know the carbon pigments in fact last longer than color pigments? Even
the lighter dilutions of the Carbon pigs?

Todd

Todd,

The short answer is not, not with this RIP.

However, that would indeed be the Holy Grail. I believe that 
eventually that is where this industry will lead. 

Perfect Future;

A non-fading, no color change, wide gamut dye in set that has no 
metamerism, no color crossover and will produce a perfectly neutral 
WYSIWYG monitor to print output. 

I believe that this will happen with time. The market is there and 
technology will eventually catch up.

KOdak recently bought Encad and is working on lightfast dye inksets. 
If anyone can do it they certainly can with over 100 years of 
experience working with photographic dyes.

Oh but to dream.

Mike

I'm using the 2000P with the epson pigments for monochrome...so far so good.
The main thing is the huge shift in tone  between outdoor and indoor light.
t

> From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:40:59 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint 4.0/ pigment vs carbon pigment
> 
> on 12/12/01 9:31 AM, mkravit wrote:
> 
>> I must be getting old, sorry I dont think I was clear....
>> 
>> You can print from
>> 
>> 1. A grayscale mode file
>> 2. A desaturated RGB file
>> 3. A color RGB file
>> 4. A color cmyk file
>> 
>> All these can be printed with the selected ink profile of your choice
>> which includes Quadtones or RGB color.
> 
> You're doing a great job, very thorough!
> 
> I have one more question to you, then one to the crowd.
> 
> Have you tried printing a monochrome image (via any of the above 4 methods)
> through color inks? If so, how's the neutrality across the scale? How does
> it compare to your FS print overall? Same dither, etc. Anything stand out as
> better or worse?
> 
> This next question is more to others who fade test. Has anyone printed BW
> images with color pigments and done fade comparison tests against the MIS or
> Piezo Carbon Quads?
> 
> With all this talk about different hued inksets, it sure would be great to
> just print with color pigments and get our hues, and longevity too, out of
> one printer. Between the cost of additional printers, CISs, inks, etc. that
> would compensate for the cost of a good RIP with included profiles.
> 
> Do we know the carbon pigments in fact last longer than color pigments? Even
> the lighter dilutions of the Carbon pigs?
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "mkravit" <mkravit@k...> wrote:
....
> > Is it Mac compatible?
> 
> I think that there either is a Mac version or one is about to be 
> released. You may want to check their website.

-------------------------------------------------------

Here is what I found on that:

You can fill out a request form on their site.You then get the following 
message:

>>>We will notify you when the Macintosh version is available. If you have 
any questions, please contact us at mac_upgrade@... or 
call 813.963.0241.<<<<

It would be great to have such a solution running on a Mac. 

Mike, thanks for posting the review and fielding the questions (i.e. being 
interrogated by Todd  ; - )  ).  Looks very promising. In fact I would be willing to 
read the black and even the whole grayscale on a densitometer and compare 
to current piezo offerings (contact me off list for that). 

Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:

>>>With all this talk about different hued inksets, it sure would be great to
just print with color pigments and get our hues, and longevity too, out of
one printer.<<<

Todd,

when you mix 3 saturated colors trying to make neutral you create the exact 
conditions for metamerism, no matter what the other qualities of the colorants 
may be. That's because your neutral will have a discontinuous spectral 
distribution (3 peaks) which may reflect light very differently depending on the 
spectral makeup of the light source. 

Until some technology overcomes this basic principle, quad or hex grayscales 
will be superior to the best of ICC-managed gray mixes of CMY.

Antonis

>  on 12/12/01 9:31 AM, mkravit wrote:
> Do we know the carbon pigments in fact last longer than color pigments?
Even the lighter dilutions of the Carbon pigs?
>  Todd
------------------------------
Hi Todd,

Some time ago I posted the following message which might be of interest to
you. Lyson is dye based / Piezo is pigment based.
Best regards,
Jo Brunenberg
http://www.jobrunenberg.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Piezo versus Lyson

.............and the winner is: Piezo B&W!

I carried out a small, nonscientific, experiment:

During the complete month of August (very sunny in the Netherlands where I
live) I exposed two black-and-white prints to the sunlight in my roof-window
on the south. So a rather tough test.

The results are remarkable!

About the prints:
- One print was the Piezo BW sample (stairs) which I received from
Inkjetmall (paper: Somerset Enhanced)
The other was a Lyson small gamut BW print (with very rich deep solid
blacks) that was made for me by Lyson (paper: Lyson Standard Fine Art)

Half of both prints were covered by heavyweight black paper.
The other halfs were exposed to the sun.
The result was judged visually and by using a densitometer.

The results after one month sun exposure:

- The exposed part of the PiezoBW print did not change in the dark grey and
black areas. There is a very slight fading in the highlights. The exposed
part is slightly less "greenish". The print still is very acceptable.
(the slight fading is just visible to the eye and a densitometer does read a
minor change).

- The exposed part of the Lyson print shows a dramatic fading as well as a
colorshift. On the unexposed part the greys are slighly "greenish", like the
Piezo BW. After exposure the greys have a strong sepia-magenta cast.
The fading iof the Lyson print is visible in all tones from hihglights up to
the shadows but is most visible in highlights and midtones. The print became
completely useless.

The densitometer tells me:

PiezoBW
highlight		
before exposure: D 0.20
after exposure: D 0.18

midtone:
before exposure: D 0.60
after exposure: D 0.59

shadow:
before exposure: D 1.84
after exposure: D 1.84

Lyson small gamut
highlight		
before exposure: D 0.20
after exposure: D 0.02

midtone:
before exposure: D 0.60
after exposure: D 0.30

shadow:
before exposure: D 2.26
after exposure: D 2.00








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>> Do we know the carbon pigments in fact last longer than color pigments?
>> Even the lighter dilutions of the Carbon pigs?
>> Todd
> ------------------------------
> Hi Todd,
> 
> Some time ago I posted the following message which might be of interest to
> you. Lyson is dye based / Piezo is pigment based.
> Best regards,
> Jo Brunenberg
> http://www.jobrunenberg.com

Thanks Jo

I like your work!

Todd