Digital BW, The Print

I'm wondering about the use of the ABW Mode and what advantages it 
provides over a regular ICM flow using the supplied Epson paper 
profiles or custom profiles.  The latter, of course, allows a soft 
proof mode in PS, which the ABW (to my knowledge) does not.   I realize 
that the ABW mode allows toning, but other than that does it offer 
something?  I had understood earlier on that ABW provided special 
dithering and a minimal use of color inks.  I have printed both ways 
(but only on matte papers with MK), however, and I can see no 
difference in dithering, ink usage or appearance of the prints.  I have 
examined the prints by eye and with a 7-35X zoom microscope and I 
believe they are identical, the ICM prints very closely matching the 
ABW "Neutral/Normal" (not "Neutral/Darker") prints.  Both work flows 
are providing excellent prints, but ICM system provides a better screen 
preview.  

Any comments or thoughts on this would be *much* appreciated.

Walt

There have been quite a few posts on the new R2400 printer revolving 
around whether to use color management or not when using the 
Advanced B&W feature of the driver. I just got mine yesterday and 
read the manual which really did not address this issue so I thought 
I would call Epson and share their tech support answer with you all.

They told me that 90% of users are finding that using NO color 
management before sending the file (RGB or Grayscale) to ABW is the 
best way to go, but that there is a minority that ARE using color 
management before sending the file and like that better. Their 
advice is that one should experiment with the two methods to see 
which you like better and that there is NO ONE RIGHT ANSWER. He said 
results are "in the eyes of the beholder". They advise the no color 
management method as a starting point and see if you like the 
results.

I also asked them if there will be any difference between "no color 
management to AWB" and simply "using color management and skipping 
the AWB". Again he said people are having different experiences and 
they do not state that there is a right way but recommend using the 
ABW method as a starting point.

Interesting! So hopefully we can get lots of discussion going on 
what people are seeing with all the above methods for B&W printing 
using the R2400.

Cheers

Thanks for the reply.

It sounds as if Epson is suggesting color management in PS (using the 
supplied output space profiles or others) but using ABW (rather than 
ICM/No Management) in the driver.  I'm not clear on the logic of 
this, but I'll try it.  Printing only BW, I have used the profiles 
with an ICM flow, but in fact I'm getting a better screen match using 
my own Soft Proof profile, no PS management and ABW (using the ABW 
controls to acccount for different papers).  The prints, however, are 
very good either way.  So I'll try what I think you are suggesting.

Walt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Jones" 
<contactscott@c...> wrote:
> There have been quite a few posts on the new R2400 printer 
revolving 
> around whether to use color management or not when using the 
> Advanced B&W feature of the driver. I just got mine yesterday and 
> read the manual which really did not address this issue so I 
thought 
> I would call Epson and share their tech support answer with you all.
> 
> They told me that 90% of users are finding that using NO color 
> management before sending the file (RGB or Grayscale) to ABW is the 
> best way to go, but that there is a minority that ARE using color 
> management before sending the file and like that better. Their 
> advice is that one should experiment with the two methods to see 
> which you like better and that there is NO ONE RIGHT ANSWER. He 
said 

> results are "in the eyes of the beholder". They advise the no color 
> management method as a starting point and see if you like the 
> results.
> 
> I also asked them if there will be any difference between "no color 
> management to AWB" and simply "using color management and skipping 
> the AWB". Again he said people are having different experiences and 
> they do not state that there is a right way but recommend using the 
> ABW method as a starting point.
> 
> Interesting! So hopefully we can get lots of discussion going on 
> what people are seeing with all the above methods for B&W printing 
> using the R2400.
> 
> Cheers

The ABW and RGB-icc workflows do produce similar looking prints, but there are some 
subtle differences.  Looking at paired prints on premium glossy in both halogen or 
incandescent and then daylight I can see some slight metamerism in the form of a faint 
magenta cast in the midtone grays in the RGB print - also a little magenta/green 
crossover.  Measured dmax is also higher for the ABW print (2.47) vs the RGB-icc print 
(2.28).  Neutrality is slightly better with the ABW print as well (see data in linked file below) 
and just looking at the two side by side suggests a slightly more bluish hue overall in the 
RGB print.  All of these difference are subtle and not significant unless you are looking at 
side by side prints generated from both methods.
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/abwrgb.jpg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" <odets@c...> wrote:

> I'm wondering about the use of the ABW Mode and what advantages it 
> provides over a regular ICM flow using the supplied Epson paper 
> profiles or custom profiles.  The latter, of course, allows a soft 
> proof mode in PS, which the ABW (to my knowledge) does not.   I realize 
> that the ABW mode allows toning, but other than that does it offer 
> something?  I had understood earlier on that ABW provided special 
> dithering and a minimal use of color inks.  I have printed both ways 
> (but only on matte papers with MK), however, and I can see no 
> difference in dithering, ink usage or appearance of the prints.  I have 
> examined the prints by eye and with a 7-35X zoom microscope and I 
> believe they are identical, the ICM prints very closely matching the 
> ABW "Neutral/Normal" (not "Neutral/Darker") prints.  Both work flows 
> are providing excellent prints, but ICM system provides a better screen 
> preview.  
> 
> Any comments or thoughts on this would be *much* appreciated.
> 
> Walt

Wow...I saw no difference, but I only tested on one image...DM
On Jul 18, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Scott Jones wrote:

> There have been quite a few posts on the new R2400 printer revolving
>  around whether to use color management or not when using the
>  Advanced B&W feature of the driver. I just got mine yesterday and
>  read the manual which really did not address this issue so I thought
>  I would call Epson and share their tech support answer with you all.
>
>  They told me that 90% of users are finding that using NO color
>  management before sending the file (RGB or Grayscale) to ABW is the
>  best way to go, but that there is a minority that ARE using color
>  management before sending the file and like that better. Their
>  advice is that one should experiment with the two methods to see
>  which you like better and that there is NO ONE RIGHT ANSWER. He said
>  results are "in the eyes of the beholder". They advise the no color
>  management method as a starting point and see if you like the
>  results.
>
>  I also asked them if there will be any difference between "no color
>  management to AWB" and simply "using color management and skipping
>  the AWB". Again he said people are having different experiences and
>  they do not state that there is a right way but recommend using the
>  ABW method as a starting point.
>
>  Interesting! So hopefully we can get lots of discussion going on
>  what people are seeing with all the above methods for B&W printing
>  using the R2400.
>
>  Cheers
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carl-  

Many thanks for the response.

I have none of these differences between and ICM flow and the "No 
Management" ABW flow and I have gone through the multiple light 
sources, viewing angles, etc.  I am however sending grayscale files 
from a 2.2 workspace and printing only on EEM (on which I do not get 
acceptably even blacks by the way) and on Epson Velvet (on which I 
get terrific, smooth, deep lacks).  I am using only MK.

For now I am staying with the ABW, largely because I have a better 
screen match--an excellent & consistent one, surprisingly--by using a 
profile with 30% dot gain and Preserve Numbers.    

Do these differences account for the differences in our 
observations?  I am a digital neophyte, but I have been priting B&W 
since 1965 and have a pretty good eye for a print.

Good wishes,
Walt


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" 
<scho@m...> wrote:
> The ABW and RGB-icc workflows do produce similar looking prints, 
but there are some 
> subtle differences.  Looking at paired prints on premium glossy in 
both halogen or 
> incandescent and then daylight I can see some slight metamerism in 
the form of a faint 
> magenta cast in the midtone grays in the RGB print - also a little 
magenta/green 
> crossover.  Measured dmax is also higher for the ABW print (2.47) 
vs the RGB-icc print 
> (2.28).  Neutrality is slightly better with the ABW print as well 
(see data in linked file below) 
> and just looking at the two side by side suggests a slightly more 
bluish hue overall in the 
> RGB print.  All of these difference are subtle and not significant 
unless you are looking at 
> side by side prints generated from both methods.
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/abwrgb.jpg
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" 
<odets@c...> wrote:
> > I'm wondering about the use of the ABW Mode and what advantages 
it 
> > provides over a regular ICM flow using the supplied Epson paper 
> > profiles or custom profiles.  The latter, of course, allows a 
soft 
> > proof mode in PS, which the ABW (to my knowledge) does not.   I 
realize 
> > that the ABW mode allows toning, but other than that does it 
offer 
> > something?  I had understood earlier on that ABW provided special 
> > dithering and a minimal use of color inks.  I have printed both 
ways 
> > (but only on matte papers with MK), however, and I can see no 
> > difference in dithering, ink usage or appearance of the prints.  
I have 
> > examined the prints by eye and with a 7-35X zoom microscope and I 
> > believe they are identical, the ICM prints very closely matching 
the 
> > ABW "Neutral/Normal" (not "Neutral/Darker") prints.  Both work 
flows 
> > are providing excellent prints, but ICM system provides a better 
screen 

> > preview.  
> > 
> > Any comments or thoughts on this would be *much* appreciated.
> > 
> > Walt

Walt,

On Jul 18, 2005, at 7:38 PM, wwodets wrote:

> Carl-
>
> Many thanks for the response.
>
> I have none of these differences between and ICM flow and the "No
> Management" ABW flow and I have gone through the multiple light
> sources, viewing angles, etc.  I am however sending grayscale files
> from a 2.2 workspace and printing only on EEM (on which I do not get
> acceptably even blacks by the way) and on Epson Velvet (on which I
> get terrific, smooth, deep lacks).  I am using only MK.
>
> For now I am staying with the ABW, largely because I have a better
> screen match--an excellent & consistent one, surprisingly--by using a
> profile with 30% dot gain and Preserve Numbers.

You might want to also try using Roy Harrington's QTR gray work space  
and his matte gray icc profile for print space when printing with the  
ABW workflow on matte papers.  If you have an i1 you can also make  
your own gray icc profiles for printing and softproofing.

>
>
> Do these differences account for the differences in our
> observations?

Could be as I was using PK ink only with RC paper.

>   I am a digital neophyte, but I have been priting B&W
> since 1965 and have a pretty good eye for a print.
>
> Good wishes,
> Walt

Carl