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Kayenta has Changed!

Kayenta has Changed!

2005-08-10 by Clayton Jones

Hello All,

This afternoon I received a new box of Kayenta.  This evening I was
making some prints with the last of my original box and decided to
compare them, as I have seen differences between production batches
with other papers.

I was dismayed to find that it has changed enormously, to where it's
really not the same paper.  Two things,

1) The ink color has warmed from (on my Paper Chase scale) B1 to B2.8,
with a chocolate brown color.  IOW, it is no longer a cold paper.  

2) Density has increased.  My original batch had nearly identical
contrast and density to EEM.  I could work up an image and send it to
Kayenta without any adjustment.  Now it prints dark and requires a
lightening curve.

Paper color, dmax and contrast seems to be much the same.  

I'm going to call Moab tomorrow and try to determine if this is just a
batch variation or an actual change in the paper formula.  If it's a
production variation then it speaks poorly of their quality control. 
I've seen variations before, but they were mostly in density or
contrast.  I've never seen a color shift of this magnitude.  It's a
completely different paper.  

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Kayenta has Changed!

2005-08-10 by Scott McLoughlin

Oh good, then I'm not crazy :-) Just did my first BO on Kayenta
on my 2200, and, well, yes, it printed a bit dark to say the least.

Clayton Jones wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hello All,
>
>
> 2) Density has increased. My original batch had nearly identical
> contrast and density to EEM. I could work up an image and send it to
> Kayenta without any adjustment. Now it prints dark and requires a
> lightening curve.
>
> [snip]
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
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> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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>
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> AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
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> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
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>
>
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Re: Kayenta has Changed!

2005-08-10 by colingruk

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> This afternoon I received a new box of Kayenta.  This evening I was
> making some prints with the last of my original box and decided to
> compare them, as I have seen differences between production batches
> with other papers.
> 
> I was dismayed to find that it has changed enormously, to where it's
> really not the same paper.  Two things,
> 
> 1) The ink color has warmed from (on my Paper Chase scale) B1 to 
B2.8,
> with a chocolate brown color.  IOW, it is no longer a cold paper.  
> 
> 2) Density has increased.  My original batch had nearly identical
> contrast and density to EEM.  I could work up an image and send it 
to
> Kayenta without any adjustment.  Now it prints dark and requires a
> lightening curve.
> 
> Paper color, dmax and contrast seems to be much the same.  
> 
> I'm going to call Moab tomorrow and try to determine if this is 
just a
> batch variation or an actual change in the paper formula.  If it's a
> production variation then it speaks poorly of their quality 
control. 
> I've seen variations before, but they were mostly in density or
> contrast.  I've never seen a color shift of this magnitude.  It's a
> completely different paper.  
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hi, again, Clayton,

I mailed three sheets of targets in Kayenta to Cathy Stratton 
yesterday.  I didn't look at them carefully, just put them in an 
envelope and mailed them! I seem doomed for I don't know what flavour 
of A4 Kayenta I sent, nor what flavour of A3 Kayenta I will receive.  
I am going to the UK for a week this coming Saturday, so if you can 
let me know if you hear from Moab about QC by Friday, I could put 
Cathy's profiling on hold. (I only connect to the internet in the 
office.)

Cheers,  Colin

Re: [Digital BW] Kayenta has Changed!

2005-08-10 by Scott McLoughlin

Clayton,

I definitely see some potential in this combo, Kayenta + BO + UC MK or
Eboni (I just received some Eboni carts) on the 2200.

I hope you will post your adjustment suggested curve/sliders what-
have-you once you achieve good results.

I use PWP, but I believe PWP will read PS curve files.

Thanks!

Scott

Clayton Jones wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hello All,
>
> This afternoon I received a new box of Kayenta. This evening I was
> making some prints with the last of my original box and decided to
> compare them, as I have seen differences between production batches
> with other papers.
>
> I was dismayed to find that it has changed enormously, to where it's
> really not the same paper. Two things,
>
> 1) The ink color has warmed from (on my Paper Chase scale) B1 to B2.8,
> with a chocolate brown color. IOW, it is no longer a cold paper.
>
> 2) Density has increased. My original batch had nearly identical
> contrast and density to EEM. I could work up an image and send it to
> Kayenta without any adjustment. Now it prints dark and requires a
> lightening curve.
>
> Paper color, dmax and contrast seems to be much the same.
>
> I'm going to call Moab tomorrow and try to determine if this is just a
> batch variation or an actual change in the paper formula. If it's a
> production variation then it speaks poorly of their quality control.
> I've seen variations before, but they were mostly in density or
> contrast. I've never seen a color shift of this magnitude. It's a
> completely different paper.
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd 
> AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Kayenta has Changed - Update

2005-08-10 by Clayton Jones

Today I spoke with someone at Moab.  They said that the Kayenta
formula has not changed, which means the changes must be due to
production run batches.  Other paper vendors have told me that this
can happen because the chemicals they order from their suppliers can
be different from batch to batch, which makes sense.  I have seen
variations in density among batches of other papers, and slight
variations in dmax.  But this is the first time I've seen a different
ink tone.

Anyway, this poses some questions about Kayenta.  Was my cold tone
batch the norm or was it an anomaly?  Will "most" Kayenta be cold or
warm?  IOW, can we count on it being a certain way most of the time
with the occational variant or will it continually vary from batch to
batch?

The lady at Moab was very nice and she is sending me a replacement box
to try.   They can't do anything about the paper itself, and don't
know the answers to the above questions.  They were unaware of any
differences.

I'll report more when the new paper comes.  


>I hope you will post your adjustment suggested curve/sliders what-
>have-you once you achieve good results.

I just added an adjustment curve layer, grabbed the midpoint, and
moved it upper-left 2 or 3 RGB units.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Kayenta has Changed - Update

2005-08-10 by Scott McLoughlin

From my box, I printed some color prints using the good old EEM
profile. Prints looked just dandy (brighter paper noted). I tried the
supplied Kayenta profiles when print color on my 2200, and the prints
looked super saturated and generally like crap.

I printed a few QTR prints using the EEM profile and the Entrada
profile. In both cases, prints looks a little "crispy" for lack of a better
word compared to the same prints on EEM.

The one BO print I made, was quite "cool." The UC black was
remarkable black to my eye. But the density of the blacks (if that's
the right lingo) was pretty extreme. Oddly, my father saw the print
hanging/drying on the magnet board and kind of like it :-) Go figure.
It's an outdoor poolside shot and had ssort of a "noire in LA" look
to it.

Actually here's the image in color:

http://www.adrenaline.com/snaps/Family/Family_1/slides/A_Ac_PoolSideFun.html

or

*http://tinyurl.com/caqao*


While it's an interesting "look" in BO (UC 2200), it would be nice
to have a more "traditional" looking print.

Scott


Clayton Jones wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Today I spoke with someone at Moab. They said that the Kayenta
> formula has not changed, which means the changes must be due to
> production run batches. Other paper vendors have told me that this
> can happen because the chemicals they order from their suppliers can
> be different from batch to batch, which makes sense. I have seen
> variations in density among batches of other papers, and slight
> variations in dmax. But this is the first time I've seen a different
> ink tone.
>
> Anyway, this poses some questions about Kayenta. Was my cold tone
> batch the norm or was it an anomaly? Will "most" Kayenta be cold or
> warm? IOW, can we count on it being a certain way most of the time
> with the occational variant or will it continually vary from batch to
> batch?
>
> The lady at Moab was very nice and she is sending me a replacement box
> to try. They can't do anything about the paper itself, and don't
> know the answers to the above questions. They were unaware of any
> differences.
>
> I'll report more when the new paper comes.
>
>
> >I hope you will post your adjustment suggested curve/sliders what-
> >have-you once you achieve good results.
>
> I just added an adjustment curve layer, grabbed the midpoint, and
> moved it upper-left 2 or 3 RGB units.
>
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd 
> AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
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Re: Kayenta has Changed - Update

2005-08-11 by colingruk

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Today I spoke with someone at Moab.  They said that the Kayenta
> formula has not changed, which means the changes must be due to
> production run batches.  Other paper vendors have told me that this
> can happen because the chemicals they order from their suppliers can
> be different from batch to batch, which makes sense.  I have seen
> variations in density among batches of other papers, and slight
> variations in dmax.  But this is the first time I've seen a 
different
> ink tone.
> 
> Anyway, this poses some questions about Kayenta.  Was my cold tone
> batch the norm or was it an anomaly?  Will "most" Kayenta be cold or
> warm?  IOW, can we count on it being a certain way most of the time
> with the occational variant or will it continually vary from batch 
to
> batch?

Many thanks, Clayton, for the information.

Colin
> 
> The lady at Moab was very nice and she is sending me a replacement 
box
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> to try.   They can't do anything about the paper itself, and don't
> know the answers to the above questions.  They were unaware of any
> differences.
> 
> I'll report more when the new paper comes.  
> 
> 
> >I hope you will post your adjustment suggested curve/sliders what-
> >have-you once you achieve good results.
> 
> I just added an adjustment curve layer, grabbed the midpoint, and
> moved it upper-left 2 or 3 RGB units.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Kayenta has Changed - Update #2

2005-08-11 by Clayton Jones

Another observation: the print from the new batch changes under
different lighting, while the one on the original paper remains the
same.  

I have full spectrum fluorescents in my studio, and here the
difference is most pronounced.  Under daylight in front of my
livingroom window the difference is miniscule; the new one looks
almost as cold as the original, with just a small hint of warmpth. 
Under tungsten they look the same, maybe a teensey difference if you
really look for it.

Both prints were made within minutes of each other: same image, same
settings, same printer, same ink.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

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