Digital BW, The Print

I'm looking for ideas, suggestions, etc. for printing with black 
only, besides the materials of Clayton Jones.  Thanks in advance.

Norm

Norm: Why not just take a grayscale image and send it to you printer
with just the black ink selected, then come back with whatever doesn't
seem right for you. It's just so simple. Being basically lazy, I was
blundering on to it at the same time as Clayton. His articles
certainly were a help in tweaking the workflow. It seems to me that
Clayton has answered every question that someone could ask and a whole
bunch more as well. I just can't think of anything to add to what
Clayton has already said except to give it a try. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nsams2002"
<normsams@w...> wrote:

> I'm looking for ideas, suggestions, etc. for printing with black 
> only, besides the materials of Clayton Jones.  Thanks in advance.
> 
> Norm

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bob Michaels [mailto:bob@...]
  Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 8:40 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Black Only Printing


  Norm: Why not just take a grayscale image and send it to you printer
  with just the black ink selected, then come back with whatever doesn't
  seem right for you. It's just so simple. Being basically lazy, I was
  blundering on to it at the same time as Clayton. His articles
  certainly were a help in tweaking the workflow. It seems to me that
  Clayton has answered every question that someone could ask and a whole
  bunch more as well. I just can't think of anything to add to what
  Clayton has already said except to give it a try. 

  Bob Michaels

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nsams2002"
  <normsams@w...> wrote:
  > I'm looking for ideas, suggestions, etc. for printing with black 
  > only, besides the materials of Clayton Jones.  Thanks in advance.
  > 
  > Norm






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael...You wrote:

<Norm: Why not just take a grayscale image and send it to you printer
with just the black ink selected, then come back with whatever doesn't
seem right for you. It's just so simple.>

I don't understand the "then come back with whatever doesn't seem right for
you."  Do you mean I should come back to the list with any concerns?

Thanks from Norm

Norm: I was trying to gently ask if you'd ever tried making a BO
print. And if not, encouraging you to do so. It's actually easier to
do than to read and digest all of Clayton's articles. 

Yes, come back and ask about whatever it is that's not working the way
you think it should. Several would be happy to help. You just need
someplace to start from. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "normsams"
<normsams@w...> wrote:
> Michael...You wrote:
> 
> <Norm: Why not just take a grayscale image and send it to you printer
> with just the black ink selected, then come back with whatever doesn't
> seem right for you. It's just so simple.>
> 
> I don't understand the "then come back with whatever doesn't seem
right for

> you."  Do you mean I should come back to the list with any concerns?
> 
> Thanks from Norm

Right...Until recently, it's probably been a year since I made a 
black only print.  (I've been working with the Piezography inks).  I 
did a black only print today (Epson 870, Epson black cartridge, 
Legion Photo Matte.  What I got were the black, greys, and whites, 
which I've been looking for for some time now, as well as a general 
neutral tonality, and luminosity which I like very much.  No, "it 
ain't broke" but I have to wonder if what I'm doing couldn't be 
better.  I'm wondering about the use of watercolor paper, which might 
make the "dots" less obvious, and perhaps using a different black 
cartridge.  As well as the 870, I also have a 1280.  The 1280 is 
pretty much devoted to Piezography, but that might change.  Thanks in 
advance for ideas.

Norm  


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Michaels" 
<bob@b...> wrote:
> Norm: I was trying to gently ask if you'd ever tried making a BO
> print. And if not, encouraging you to do so. It's actually easier to
> do than to read and digest all of Clayton's articles. 
> 
> Yes, come back and ask about whatever it is that's not working the 
way
> you think it should. Several would be happy to help. You just need
> someplace to start from. 
> 
> Bob Michaels
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "normsams"
> <normsams@w...> wrote:
> > Michael...You wrote:
> > 
> > <Norm: Why not just take a grayscale image and send it to you 
printer
> > with just the black ink selected, then come back with whatever 
doesn't
> > seem right for you. It's just so simple.>
> > 
> > I don't understand the "then come back with whatever doesn't seem
> right for
> > you."  Do you mean I should come back to the list with any 
concerns?
> > 
> > Thanks from Norm

Norm, I'm not familiar with the 870. I have a 1280 and 890 (narrow
version of 1280). 

I use the 1280 with MIS Eboni black printing ususally on EEM,
sometimes on Photo Rag at 1440 dpi. The prints looked good right out
of the box. Getting real WYSIWYG required a little dialing in. I find
if I used no embedded color profile or Gray Gamma 2.2 and change the
printer color space from "same as...." to 10% dot gain my prints match
my monitor. Everyone has their own technique. 

Why not give your 1280 a try. It probably has a smaller dot than your
870. No reason the Piezo K shouldn't work, probably better than the
Epson K in your 870. All it will take is a few minutes and a sheet of
paper to find out. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nsams2002"
<normsams@w...> wrote:

> Right...Until recently, it's probably been a year since I made a 
> black only print.  (I've been working with the Piezography inks).  I 
> did a black only print today (Epson 870, Epson black cartridge, 
> Legion Photo Matte.  What I got were the black, greys, and whites, 
> which I've been looking for for some time now, as well as a general 
> neutral tonality, and luminosity which I like very much.  No, "it 
> ain't broke" but I have to wonder if what I'm doing couldn't be 
> better.  I'm wondering about the use of watercolor paper, which might 
> make the "dots" less obvious, and perhaps using a different black 
> cartridge.  As well as the 870, I also have a 1280.  The 1280 is 
> pretty much devoted to Piezography, but that might change.  Thanks in 
> advance for ideas.
> 
> Norm  
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Michaels" 
> <bob@b...> wrote:
> > Norm: I was trying to gently ask if you'd ever tried making a BO
> > print. And if not, encouraging you to do so. It's actually easier to
> > do than to read and digest all of Clayton's articles. 
> > 
> > Yes, come back and ask about whatever it is that's not working the 
> way
> > you think it should. Several would be happy to help. You just need
> > someplace to start from. 
> > 
> > Bob Michaels
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "normsams"
> > <normsams@w...> wrote:
> > > Michael...You wrote:
> > > 
> > > <Norm: Why not just take a grayscale image and send it to you 
> printer
> > > with just the black ink selected, then come back with whatever 
> doesn't
> > > seem right for you. It's just so simple.>
> > > 
> > > I don't understand the "then come back with whatever doesn't seem
> > right for
> > > you."  Do you mean I should come back to the list with any 
> concerns?
> > > 
> > > Thanks from Norm

Hello Norm,

I have an Epson 1280 and I tried the Piezography inks with the ICC 
profile upgrade and still could not get the middle tones un-muddy. I 
switched to MIS inks (UT2) for most of my printis. I often print BO 
with the 1280 and select Photo Paper and 2880 DPI and the dots are 
not evident in the lighter tones at all unless you use a loupe. You 
can use the Black ink in the Piezo inkset to print the BO also, 
though the MIS inks seem to be the ones usually used with very good 
results. If the print is a little lighter than the monitor give the 
Back end of 5% less than the front end to start off with. The Front 
End is the profile for Working Gray set to 20% for starters. Clayton 
is very helpful with this process and I've compared notes with him 
to clarify some particular step for me.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny Eades



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nsams2002" 
<normsams@w...> wrote:
> Right...Until recently, it's probably been a year since I made a 
> black only print.  (I've been working with the Piezography inks).  
I 
> did a black only print today (Epson 870, Epson black cartridge, 
> Legion Photo Matte.  What I got were the black, greys, and whites, 
> which I've been looking for for some time now, as well as a 
general 
> neutral tonality, and luminosity which I like very much.  No, "it 
> ain't broke" but I have to wonder if what I'm doing couldn't be 
> better.  I'm wondering about the use of watercolor paper, which 
might 
> make the "dots" less obvious, and perhaps using a different black 
> cartridge.  As well as the 870, I also have a 1280.  The 1280 is 
> pretty much devoted to Piezography, but that might change.  Thanks 
in 

> advance for ideas.
> 
> Norm  
>

Everyone

I recently sent a private email to Clayton Jones regarding BO 
printing in which I was highly complimentary of his work.

He suggested that I should send this to the entire forum so that BO 
Printing can be placed in context with other viable methods. So here 
goes:

Clayton

A while back I purchased three of your BO prints and
absolutely loved them. (At the time I wasn't embroiled
in the Black and White Print Forum.)

Once I got involved in the forum I became "concerned"
as people with far more experience and knowledge than
I ranted on about "the dots" and how continuously
toned prints were so much better.

I already had a copy of imageprint, but I purchased a
copy of QTR from Roy and have spent a large amount of
my free time for the past month or so developing
profiles for my most common papers (which quite
frankly is a good mirror of your "great paper chase."

Today I printed a detailed image on all of those
papers using my QTR profiles and also with BO. I then
enlisted my wife and daughters support (independently
of each other) to evaluate the prints with no
knowledge of how they had been created. Both very
quickly picked the BO prints over the toned prints and
by a wide margin.

The ultimate winners for this image were Premier Art
Hot Press High WHite Matte, and the Red River Dourian
Art!

Certainly not that you needed the validation but I for
one just wanted to thank you for the work you have
done; communicating the basis for that work; and for
me providing me with a solid foundation for the
creation of my images.

By the way, both my wife and daughter raved most about
the transparency of the images (read the luminousity
of having the white show through.) To them, and to me,
the continuous toned prints, by comparison, appeared a
little "muddy."

Thanks ever so much

Woody Spedden

I offer this as strictly my opinions.

Thanks for reading
Woody Spedden

On 8/7/05 6:06 PM, "woodyspedden" <elwood@...> typed:

> Everyone
> 
> I recently sent a private email to Clayton Jones regarding BO
> printing in which I was highly complimentary of his work.
> 
> He suggested that I should send this to the entire forum so that BO
> Printing can be placed in context with other viable methods. So here
> goes:
> 
> Clayton
> 
> A while back I purchased three of your BO prints and
> absolutely loved them. (At the time I wasn't embroiled
> in the Black and White Print Forum.)
> 
> Once I got involved in the forum I became "concerned"
> as people with far more experience and knowledge than
> I ranted on about "the dots" and how continuously
> toned prints were so much better.
> 
> I already had a copy of imageprint, but I purchased a
> copy of QTR from Roy and have spent a large amount of
> my free time for the past month or so developing
> profiles for my most common papers (which quite
> frankly is a good mirror of your "great paper chase."
> 
> Today I printed a detailed image on all of those
> papers using my QTR profiles and also with BO. I then
> enlisted my wife and daughters support (independently
> of each other) to evaluate the prints with no
> knowledge of how they had been created. Both very
> quickly picked the BO prints over the toned prints and
> by a wide margin.
> 
> The ultimate winners for this image were Premier Art
> Hot Press High WHite Matte, and the Red River Dourian
> Art!
> 
> Certainly not that you needed the validation but I for
> one just wanted to thank you for the work you have
> done; communicating the basis for that work; and for
> me providing me with a solid foundation for the
> creation of my images.
> 
> By the way, both my wife and daughter raved most about
> the transparency of the images (read the luminousity
> of having the white show through.) To them, and to me,
> the continuous toned prints, by comparison, appeared a
> little "muddy."
> 
> Thanks ever so much
> 
> Woody Spedden
> 
> I offer this as strictly my opinions.
> 
> Thanks for reading
> Woody Spedden
> 
> 
That¹s great Woody!! But we know you did a great job on your all black
prints but we don¹t know what kind of job you did on your all color prints
other than I guess you said they were muddy!!
I do know that all black printing gives one a quicker and easier result.
As far as doing into the objectivity of ones spousal support system we don¹t
dare go there 1 :)

To me when you have a machine which has 8 or whatever printing heads and you
use only 1 of them right off you¹re not doing what the machine ³wants to
do².  As Feynman might approach it He would want all 8 of a shuttles rockets
to go off even though one of them he might have real close feelings about..

Too summon up a skued metaphor if one compares a muddy platinum print
against a clean looking Gum Bichromate with Crayola hand accents it¹s the
Gum Crayola which is going to win out.  Because the Gum Crayola was done
right.  It was clean.  A muddy print is a muddy print. Who likes mud? Even
if I¹ts platinum mud!
I'll take Clean Crayola over Platinum Mud anyday!
:)



Mark Rabiner
Photography
Portland Oregon
http://rabinergroup.com/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Woody:

> Both very quickly picked the BO prints over the toned prints and by  
> a wide margin.

And my experience is the opposite of yours: when I made the  
comparison of BO prints versus toned prints people always immediately  
chose the toned prints because the BO were rougher in tonal  
transitions and showed dots in the highlights -- and the toned prints  
definitely were not muddy.

--Mitch/Bangkok

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark

I don't have an axe to grind here although there seems
to be many who do.

Perhaps it is my profiles in QTR that are to blame. I
don't know but I do know that I carefully followed all
the advice in the QTR procedures as to how to make the
best profiles. I use the XRite 810 and do my best to
be fair.)

I have simply tried to bring to the table my personal
experiences to date regarding the results. I don't
think that people go into galleries to view an Ansel
Adams print hoping the gallery owner will take it down
from the wall so they can look for dots, or whatever
factor they consider problematic. I believe that we go
into galleries and look at the prints and come away
with a feeling of awe, wonder or what is this all
about based on our feeling for what the print has
brought to our attention.

I want to learn all there is to know about making fine
art prints. As I stated in my letter to Clayton, most
of you are far more experienced and knowledgable about
these processes than I.

I do however stick to my observations about what I see
and what I am pleased to see. So I also stick to my
observations as stated earlier.

As to my family and their observations, they wouldn't
know a BO print from a whatever. They simply looked
and told me what they preferred. I think this is
important only in that most "buyers" behave the same
way. They like what they see, and they buy what they
like..........independent of all of our ministrations
as to how the prints are made or what should be more
perfect than others.

Like Clayton, I simply profess what I like. I don't
care to get into a debate as to "who is right" because
I think this is mute.

Whatever you love, go for it. The most important thing
about this forum is that all points of view get aired.
The ultimate objective is for everyone, with all their
differences, get to make the kind of prints they enjoy
and can sell.

With that as the objective let's keep the
conversations going.

Your friend
Woody

First, I am not knocking the QTR approach, far from it
indeed. I think it is a great RIP and I commend Roy
and all who followed for making such a tremendous tool
available to us all for the miserly sum of $50 (which
a number of people seem destined to try to avoid!)

--- Mark Rabiner <mark@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
On 8/7/05 6:06 PM, "woodyspedden"
<elwood@...> typed:

> Everyone
> 
> I recently sent a private email to Clayton Jones
regarding BO
> printing in which I was highly complimentary of his
work.
> 
> He suggested that I should send this to the entire
forum so that BO
> Printing can be placed in context with other viable
methods. So here
> goes:
> 
> Clayton
> 
> A while back I purchased three of your BO prints and
> absolutely loved them. (At the time I wasn't
embroiled
> in the Black and White Print Forum.)
> 
> Once I got involved in the forum I became
"concerned"
> as people with far more experience and knowledge
than
> I ranted on about "the dots" and how continuously
> toned prints were so much better.
> 
> I already had a copy of imageprint, but I purchased
a
> copy of QTR from Roy and have spent a large amount
of
> my free time for the past month or so developing
> profiles for my most common papers (which quite
> frankly is a good mirror of your "great paper
chase."
> 
> Today I printed a detailed image on all of those
> papers using my QTR profiles and also with BO. I
then
> enlisted my wife and daughters support
(independently
> of each other) to evaluate the prints with no
> knowledge of how they had been created. Both very
> quickly picked the BO prints over the toned prints
and
> by a wide margin.
> 
> The ultimate winners for this image were Premier Art
> Hot Press High WHite Matte, and the Red River
Dourian
> Art!
> 
> Certainly not that you needed the validation but I
for
> one just wanted to thank you for the work you have
> done; communicating the basis for that work; and for
> me providing me with a solid foundation for the
> creation of my images.
> 
> By the way, both my wife and daughter raved most
about
> the transparency of the images (read the luminousity
> of having the white show through.) To them, and to
me,
> the continuous toned prints, by comparison, appeared
a
> little "muddy."
> 
> Thanks ever so much
> 
> Woody Spedden
> 
> I offer this as strictly my opinions.
> 
> Thanks for reading
> Woody Spedden
> 
> 
That\ufffds great Woody!! But we know you did a great job
on your all black
prints but we don\ufffdt know what kind of job you did on
your all color prints
other than I guess you said they were muddy!!
I do know that all black printing gives one a quicker
and easier result.
As far as doing into the objectivity of ones spousal
support system we don\ufffdt
dare go there 1 :)

To me when you have a machine which has 8 or whatever
printing heads and you
use only 1 of them right off you\ufffdre not doing what the
machine \ufffdwants to
do\ufffd.  As Feynman might approach it He would want all 8
of a shuttles rockets
to go off even though one of them he might have real
close feelings about..

Too summon up a skued metaphor if one compares a muddy
platinum print
against a clean looking Gum Bichromate with Crayola
hand accents it\ufffds the
Gum Crayola which is going to win out.  Because the
Gum Crayola was done
right.  It was clean.  A muddy print is a muddy print.
Who likes mud? Even
if I\ufffdts platinum mud!
I'll take Clean Crayola over Platinum Mud anyday!
:)



Mark Rabiner
Photography
Portland Oregon
http://rabinergroup.com/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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---------------------------------

I accept that your experience is valid Mitch and I
thank you for sharing. I am not trying to promote one
method over the other, only to share my own
experiences. Perhaps I am simply not yet skilled
enough to make profiles for the QTR which are worthy
of comparison.

Best regards
Woody

--- mitcha@... wrote:


---------------------------------
Woody:

> Both very quickly picked the BO prints over the
toned prints and by  
> a wide margin.

And my experience is the opposite of yours: when I
made the  
comparison of BO prints versus toned prints people
always immediately  
chose the toned prints because the BO were rougher in
tonal  
transitions and showed dots in the highlights -- and
the toned prints  
definitely were not muddy.

--Mitch/Bangkok

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
and other resources as they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your
Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal
attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or
argumentative users may be removed from the membership
without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group
topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently
make off-topic posts may be removed from the
membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the
group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the
actions and decisions of the group Owner and
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the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE
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BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN
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INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING
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---------------------------------

Very well said, Woody! I agree with your comments on all points. (And thanks 
to Clayton for his excellent sample BO prints!)

I have to admit that when I look at my BO prints with my 8x loupe and see 
all the isolated dots, I cringe a little. But that is clearly not the way 
the public looks at prints, nor should they. (Not sure how museum curators 
look at them, but then Seurat did pretty well with his dotted paintings.)

That gives me an idea: how about if we call the black only prints 
"Seurat-giclee" prints and price them at twice what we charge for "inkjet" 
prints.  Either that or prohibit viewing from less than 6 inches and 
prohibit loupes in galleries.

Regards,

Bert

katzung1@...
www.astronomy-images.com
www.visionlightgallery.com/katzung/

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "woodyspedden" <elwood@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 6:06 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Black Only Printing


Everyone

I recently sent a private email to Clayton Jones regarding BO
printing in which I was highly complimentary of his work.

He suggested that I should send this to the entire forum so that BO
Printing can be placed in context with other viable methods. So here
goes:

Clayton

A while back I purchased three of your BO prints and
absolutely loved them. (At the time I wasn't embroiled
in the Black and White Print Forum.)

Once I got involved in the forum I became "concerned"
as people with far more experience and knowledge than
I ranted on about "the dots" and how continuously
toned prints were so much better.

I already had a copy of imageprint, but I purchased a
copy of QTR from Roy and have spent a large amount of
my free time for the past month or so developing
profiles for my most common papers (which quite
frankly is a good mirror of your "great paper chase."

Today I printed a detailed image on all of those
papers using my QTR profiles and also with BO. I then
enlisted my wife and daughters support (independently
of each other) to evaluate the prints with no
knowledge of how they had been created. Both very
quickly picked the BO prints over the toned prints and
by a wide margin.

The ultimate winners for this image were Premier Art
Hot Press High WHite Matte, and the Red River Dourian
Art!

Certainly not that you needed the validation but I for
one just wanted to thank you for the work you have
done; communicating the basis for that work; and for
me providing me with a solid foundation for the
creation of my images.

By the way, both my wife and daughter raved most about
the transparency of the images (read the luminousity
of having the white show through.) To them, and to me,
the continuous toned prints, by comparison, appeared a
little "muddy."

Thanks ever so much

Woody Spedden

I offer this as strictly my opinions.

Thanks for reading
Woody Spedden

Bert

You are a gem with a wonderful sense of humor. I am
happy to charge twice as much but I am afraid that
twice $0.00 still adds up to same amount.

Happy printing
Woody

--- Bert Katzung <katzung1@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Very well said, Woody! I agree with your comments on
all points. (And thanks 
to Clayton for his excellent sample BO prints!)

I have to admit that when I look at my BO prints with
my 8x loupe and see 
all the isolated dots, I cringe a little. But that is
clearly not the way 
the public looks at prints, nor should they. (Not sure
how museum curators 
look at them, but then Seurat did pretty well with his
dotted paintings.)

That gives me an idea: how about if we call the black
only prints 
"Seurat-giclee" prints and price them at twice what we
charge for "inkjet" 
prints.  Either that or prohibit viewing from less
than 6 inches and 
prohibit loupes in galleries.

Regards,

Bert

katzung1@...
www.astronomy-images.com
www.visionlightgallery.com/katzung/

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "woodyspedden" <elwood@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 6:06 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Black Only Printing


Everyone

I recently sent a private email to Clayton Jones
regarding BO
printing in which I was highly complimentary of his
work.

He suggested that I should send this to the entire
forum so that BO
Printing can be placed in context with other viable
methods. So here
goes:

Clayton

A while back I purchased three of your BO prints and
absolutely loved them. (At the time I wasn't embroiled
in the Black and White Print Forum.)

Once I got involved in the forum I became "concerned"
as people with far more experience and knowledge than
I ranted on about "the dots" and how continuously
toned prints were so much better.

I already had a copy of imageprint, but I purchased a
copy of QTR from Roy and have spent a large amount of
my free time for the past month or so developing
profiles for my most common papers (which quite
frankly is a good mirror of your "great paper chase."

Today I printed a detailed image on all of those
papers using my QTR profiles and also with BO. I then
enlisted my wife and daughters support (independently
of each other) to evaluate the prints with no
knowledge of how they had been created. Both very
quickly picked the BO prints over the toned prints and
by a wide margin.

The ultimate winners for this image were Premier Art
Hot Press High WHite Matte, and the Red River Dourian
Art!

Certainly not that you needed the validation but I for
one just wanted to thank you for the work you have
done; communicating the basis for that work; and for
me providing me with a solid foundation for the
creation of my images.

By the way, both my wife and daughter raved most about
the transparency of the images (read the luminousity
of having the white show through.) To them, and to me,
the continuous toned prints, by comparison, appeared a
little "muddy."

Thanks ever so much

Woody Spedden

I offer this as strictly my opinions.

Thanks for reading
Woody Spedden







Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
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BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
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I should have thought that the prints made from the colored pigments 
would better be called Seurat-like. If you have never seen a Seurat 
painting "in the flesh" you are in for what looks to be a giant 
giclee (with well-pigmented paint).

At 10:46 PM 8/7/2005, you wrote:

>Very well said, Woody! I agree with your comments on all points. (And thanks
>to Clayton for his excellent sample BO prints!)
>
>I have to admit that when I look at my BO prints with my 8x loupe and see
>all the isolated dots, I cringe a little. But that is clearly not the way
>the public looks at prints, nor should they. (Not sure how museum curators
>look at them, but then Seurat did pretty well with his dotted paintings.)
>
>That gives me an idea: how about if we call the black only prints
>"Seurat-giclee" prints and price them at twice what we charge for "inkjet"
>prints.  Either that or prohibit viewing from less than 6 inches and
>prohibit loupes in galleries.
>
>Regards,
>
>Bert
>
>katzung1@...
>www.astronomy-images.com
>www.visionlightgallery.com/katzung/
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "woodyspedden" <elwood@...>
>To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 6:06 PM
>Subject: [Digital BW] Black Only Printing
>
>
>Everyone
>
>I recently sent a private email to Clayton Jones regarding BO
>printing in which I was highly complimentary of his work.
>
>He suggested that I should send this to the entire forum so that BO
>Printing can be placed in context with other viable methods. So here
>goes:
>
>Clayton
>
>A while back I purchased three of your BO prints and
>absolutely loved them. (At the time I wasn't embroiled
>in the Black and White Print Forum.)
>
>Once I got involved in the forum I became "concerned"
>as people with far more experience and knowledge than
>I ranted on about "the dots" and how continuously
>toned prints were so much better.
>
>I already had a copy of imageprint, but I purchased a
>copy of QTR from Roy and have spent a large amount of
>my free time for the past month or so developing
>profiles for my most common papers (which quite
>frankly is a good mirror of your "great paper chase."
>
>Today I printed a detailed image on all of those
>papers using my QTR profiles and also with BO. I then
>enlisted my wife and daughters support (independently
>of each other) to evaluate the prints with no
>knowledge of how they had been created. Both very
>quickly picked the BO prints over the toned prints and
>by a wide margin.
>
>The ultimate winners for this image were Premier Art
>Hot Press High WHite Matte, and the Red River Dourian
>Art!
>
>Certainly not that you needed the validation but I for
>one just wanted to thank you for the work you have
>done; communicating the basis for that work; and for
>me providing me with a solid foundation for the
>creation of my images.
>
>By the way, both my wife and daughter raved most about
>the transparency of the images (read the luminousity
>of having the white show through.) To them, and to me,
>the continuous toned prints, by comparison, appeared a
>little "muddy."
>
>Thanks ever so much
>
>Woody Spedden
>
>I offer this as strictly my opinions.
>
>Thanks for reading
>Woody Spedden
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
>resources as they are often being updated.
>
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
>this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
>to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
>from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
>B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
>removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
>Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
>Files section:
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
>PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE 
>"OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL 
>NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
>CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
>DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
>LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE 
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
>DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE 
>DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
>ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
>CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
>OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Elwood Spedden <elwood@w...> 
wrote:
...
> I don't have an axe to grind here although there seems
> to be many who do.
...
>...I don't
> care to get into a debate as to "who is right" because
> I think this is mute.
...
> Whatever you love, go for it.

Man, you're just no fun at all!!!
Good night Las Vegas!
Tyler

I was trying to order some paper from alex.com, but to my surprise  
they didn't ship over seas!
Is any other online shop carrying the range, who will ship overseas?

TIA,
danny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Danny Twang <dannyt@f...> 
wrote:

That's strange.

I just ordered from alex.com yesterday. When filling out the information I had to choose 
my country (I live in the USA). If they didn't ship overseas why would they ask for that 
information?

If you go to premierimagingproducts.com and look under "dealers" you'll see a list of 
resellers (including alex.com).

Steve 

> I was trying to order some paper from alex.com, but to my surprise  
> they didn't ship over seas!
> Is any other online shop carrying the range, who will ship overseas?
> 
> TIA,
> danny

Who is alex.com, do you mean atlex.com?

On 8/10/05, steveh0607 <steveh060758@...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Danny
> Twang <dannyt@f...> 
> wrote:
> 
> That's strange.
> 
> I just ordered from alex.com yesterday. When filling out the information I
> had to choose 
> my country (I live in the USA). If they didn't ship overseas why would they
> ask for that 
> information?
> 
> If you go to premierimagingproducts.com and look under "dealers" you'll see
> a list of 
> resellers (including alex.com).
> 
> Steve 
> 
> > I was trying to order some paper from alex.com, but to my surprise  
> > they didn't ship over seas!
> > Is any other online shop carrying the range, who will ship overseas?
> > 
> > TIA,
> > danny
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
>  Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
>   
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>  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Sintchak <rich815@g...> 
wrote:

opps...yes, I meant atlex.com....my fingers went out of control when typing.
> Who is alex.com, do you mean atlex.com?
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/10/05, steveh0607 <steveh060758@m...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Danny
> > Twang <dannyt@f...> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > That's strange.
> > 
> > I just ordered from alex.com yesterday. When filling out the information I
> > had to choose 
> > my country (I live in the USA). If they didn't ship overseas why would they
> > ask for that 
> > information?
> > 
> > If you go to premierimagingproducts.com and look under "dealers" you'll see
> > a list of 
> > resellers (including alex.com).
> > 
> > Steve 
> > 
> > > I was trying to order some paper from alex.com, but to my surprise  
> > > they didn't ship over seas!
> > > Is any other online shop carrying the range, who will ship overseas?
> > > 
> > > TIA,
> > > danny
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO 
YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF 
THE
> > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
> > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO 
OR
> > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF 
ANY

> > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> > 
> >  Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
> >   
> >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> >