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OT - B&W Printing

OT - B&W Printing

2005-08-26 by mxgo95747

I know I am going off topic by talking about B&W printing.  But, please forgive the 
intrusion on these on going discussions abou MF aand new Canon cameras.

I have noticed while the R2400 printer images look great on photo paper.  but, not so 
good with matte papers.  I wil post my observatioons:

As we all know, the photo quality paper printing is great.

But, the matte paper printing is not as good as MIS EZ inks.  I do miss the Eboni in the 
black position.  With images that have a lot of black, the shadows are not as good as using 
a simple C86 loaded with the EZ inks.  But, where the the shadows are limited, an image 
looks pretty good.  I do like the warm tone (stock, no other adjustments) with a dark 
adjustment.  

I sure hope that MIS gets out their K3 ink set soon, so I can enjoy the look of the Eboni 
Black.

Printing on EEM paper on the R2400, really makes me appreciate my C86 loaded with EZ 
inks.  

Just a few thoughts.  Sorry for my intrusion with these thoughts on B&W printing with the 
R2400.

Martin

Re: OT - B&W Printing

2005-08-27 by Clayton Jones

Hello Martin,

>I sure hope that MIS gets out their K3 ink set soon, so I can enjoy 
>the look of the Eboni Black.

I tried some Eboni in my 2400 using the MIS C86/R200/R1800 cart (with
Epson MK chip).  It seemed to work ok in my limited tests (as far as
Eboni working ok with the other K3 inks), but it had some weird
patterned banding that I couldn't get rid of.  I was in the middle of
a project so I switched back to MK without any further tests.  I don't
know if it was caused by the cart or the printer or the ink. Since you
have a C86, I think those carts will work.  I'd be real interested to
know if you get the same problem.  Any chance you could try it?


 
>Printing on EEM paper on the R2400, really makes me appreciate 
>my C86 loaded with EZ inks.  

I was never able to get a decent print on EEM.  But I get excellent
results using Velvet Fine Art (which has really good dmax to begin
with) and the VFA paper setting at the canned "neutral' and "warm"
settings (also with density set to "light" and ink limit at -5%).  

In addition, I've been able to get excellent results with several
other papers (Dourian, Merlin Smooth, Condor BW, Merlin Natural,
Innova Soft Texture, Kayenta) as long as I use the VFA paper setting.
 Each paper requires its own ABW setting to find a convincing tone
that doesn't look too colorized, so it takes some experimenting at
first.  

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm







> 
> Just a few thoughts.  Sorry for my intrusion with these thoughts on
B&W printing with the 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> R2400.
> 
> Martin

Re: OT - B&W Printing

2005-08-27 by mxgo95747

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Martin,
> 
> >I sure hope that MIS gets out their K3 ink set soon, so I can enjoy 
> >the look of the Eboni Black.
> 
> I tried some Eboni in my 2400 using the MIS C86/R200/R1800 cart (with
> Epson MK chip).  It seemed to work ok in my limited tests (as far as
> Eboni working ok with the other K3 inks), but it had some weird
> patterned banding that I couldn't get rid of.  I was in the middle of
> a project so I switched back to MK without any further tests.  I don't
> know if it was caused by the cart or the printer or the ink. Since you
> have a C86, I think those carts will work.  I'd be real interested to
> know if you get the same problem.  Any chance you could try it?

Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that the Mk C86 cart with the C86 chip 
works (without wreaking the printer) with the R2400?

As for the EEM paper with Epson R2400 Mk cart, the print was not as good as the HRag 
188 paper (using the EEM profile) does look much better.  My comment was only to say 
that the Eboni ink gave me better blacks.  Especially for images with a lot of heavy 
shadows in the Zone 3 range.  I have been using the EEM just to experiment with this new 
printer.

By the way, I did try BO on my C86, it was, as you said more vivid and did not suffer from 
the slight opaqueness of using the Eboni, neutral, neutral, and neutral cart positions. 

I will try the other papers, as especially the VFA paper, when I get up to speed with the 
R2400.



Martin

Re: OT - B&W Printing

2005-08-27 by Clayton Jones

Hello Martin,

>Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that the Mk 
>C86 cart with the C86 chip works (without wreaking the printer) 
>with the R2400?

NO!!!! Don't do that.  Sorry I wasn't more clear.  First, the cart.  I
have MIS carts for the R200.  I was told that this same cart is used
for the C86/R1800 printers, and also works in the 2400, BUT the chips
for all these are different.  So I took the chip off the 2400 MK cart
and put in on the R200 cart with Eboni.  It worked, the 2400 accepted
it without complaint, but it had the weird banding problem.


 
>As for the EEM paper with Epson R2400 Mk cart, the print was not 
>as good as the HRag 188 paper (using the EEM profile) does look 
>much better.  

Try using the VFA paper setting with the PR and see what happens.  I
found MUCH better results on all the papers I mentioned, compared to
the same papers using the Enh Matte setting.  I just keep it on
VFA for everything now.



>My comment was only to say that the Eboni ink gave me better 
>blacks.  Especially for images with a lot of heavy shadows in 
>the Zone 3 range.  

Yes, I expect Eboni will be much better for everything.  I'm just
concerned (because of this first experiment) that it won't work in the
2400 for some reason.  That's why I am hoping you will try it to see
if you get the same result.  If you do, then we'll know it isn't just
something in my printer and further testing will be needed to find the
cause (and hopefully a cure).




>By the way, I did try BO on my C86, it was, as you said more vivid 
>and did not suffer from the slight opaqueness...

Yes, it's quite a difference.  I still use BO except on certain images
that are weakened by it - mainly those with large smooth mid-tone
areas.  The other day I spent several hours working up a K3 print.  It
looked great by itself, but then I placed a BO print next to it and
suddenly it looked wimpy.  How does your C86 do for BO?  Many users
have reported it is too coarse, but a few reported good results, so I
guess it varies - maybe you have a good one.  The one C86 BO print
I've seen was very coarse.  My R200 is giving results that to the eye
are as good as the 2200.  They have a bit more dither banding under
the loupe.



>I will try the other papers, as especially the VFA paper, when I 
>get up to speed with the R2400.

You don't necessarily need to use VFA paper, just use the VFA paper
setting.  Try it with your PR with the ABW settings of 6h/1v.  I get a
very pleasing tone that is very close to what I get with Eboni BO on
that paper (that was my goal - I set out to try and match that tone).
 I also put the Tone setting on "light" and ink config to -5%.

These are my standard settings for everything:

Paper Type: Velvet Fine Art
ABW/Tone: Light
Ink Config/Color density: -5%

I have this as a Saved setting.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: OT - B&W Printing

2005-08-27 by mxgo95747

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Martin,
> 
>> 
> NO!!!! Don't do that.  Sorry I wasn't more clear.  

That is what I thought.

>  
> >As for the EEM paper with Epson R2400 Mk cart, the print was not 
> >as good as the HRag 188 paper (using the EEM profile) does look 
> >much better.  
> 
> Try using the VFA paper setting with the PR and see what happens.

Sounds good.  I will try it. 
> 
> 
> Yes, I expect Eboni will be much better for everything. 

I hope that MIS puts out an ink set soon, with refillable carts, and with the bowhaus RIP, I 
should be set for some serious printing.  I wil probably get the RIP this coming month and 
see how that works out.
 
>  The other day I spent several hours working up a K3 print.  It
> looked great by itself, but then I placed a BO print next to it and
> suddenly it looked wimpy. 

That is exactly what I saw, in comparing the C86 (Eboni ink) BO print and a print w/C86 E-
N-N-N EZ inks.  I especially noticed it in those areas where there was a lot of grey.  
However, the BO print was too coarse.

  > You don't necessarily need to use VFA paper, just use the VFA paper
> setting......... These are my standard settings for everything:
> 
> Paper Type: Velvet Fine Art
> ABW/Tone: Light
> Ink Config/Color density: -5%
>
Thanks I will give it a try.  One more point, I have found that, if I set my color setting (PS 
CS) working spaces "grey," to Gamma 2.2 and my ABW prints, either warm or neutral to a 
fine adjustment of "dark," I get a pretty good match to my screen.   I do not know if this is 
unversal, but it does work for me.

Thanks for the input.

Martin

Re: OT - B&W Printing

2005-08-27 by wwodets

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Martin,
> 
Clayton-

I am also using the ABW driver with "light" (smoother step wedge) 
and "neutral" settings.  I have not reduced the ink limit.  Do you 
have any correspondence between screen and print (i.e. something like 
a soft proof) and if so, what are you using for screen view 
(workspace, monitor calibration, etc.)?  I am using a workspace of 
gamma 2.2 and a monitor calibrated to 5K and 2.2.  The screen view is 
much darker than the print and the shadow compression is somewhat 
different between the two; so I use a PS curve for viewing to fairly 
closely match the print.  But I thought you might be doing something 
better than this.

Walt



> >Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that the Mk 
> >C86 cart with the C86 chip works (without wreaking the printer) 
> >with the R2400?
> 
> NO!!!! Don't do that.  Sorry I wasn't more clear.  First, the 
cart.  I
> have MIS carts for the R200.  I was told that this same cart is used
> for the C86/R1800 printers, and also works in the 2400, BUT the 
chips
> for all these are different.  So I took the chip off the 2400 MK 
cart
> and put in on the R200 cart with Eboni.  It worked, the 2400 
accepted
> it without complaint, but it had the weird banding problem.
> 
> 
>  
> >As for the EEM paper with Epson R2400 Mk cart, the print was not 
> >as good as the HRag 188 paper (using the EEM profile) does look 
> >much better.  
> 
> Try using the VFA paper setting with the PR and see what happens.  I
> found MUCH better results on all the papers I mentioned, compared to
> the same papers using the Enh Matte setting.  I just keep it on
> VFA for everything now.
> 
> 
> 
> >My comment was only to say that the Eboni ink gave me better 
> >blacks.  Especially for images with a lot of heavy shadows in 
> >the Zone 3 range.  
> 
> Yes, I expect Eboni will be much better for everything.  I'm just
> concerned (because of this first experiment) that it won't work in 
the
> 2400 for some reason.  That's why I am hoping you will try it to see
> if you get the same result.  If you do, then we'll know it isn't 
just
> something in my printer and further testing will be needed to find 
the
> cause (and hopefully a cure).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >By the way, I did try BO on my C86, it was, as you said more vivid 
> >and did not suffer from the slight opaqueness...
> 
> Yes, it's quite a difference.  I still use BO except on certain 
images
> that are weakened by it - mainly those with large smooth mid-tone
> areas.  The other day I spent several hours working up a K3 print.  
It
> looked great by itself, but then I placed a BO print next to it and
> suddenly it looked wimpy.  How does your C86 do for BO?  Many users
> have reported it is too coarse, but a few reported good results, so 
I
> guess it varies - maybe you have a good one.  The one C86 BO print
> I've seen was very coarse.  My R200 is giving results that to the 
eye
> are as good as the 2200.  They have a bit more dither banding under
> the loupe.
> 
> 
> 
> >I will try the other papers, as especially the VFA paper, when I 
> >get up to speed with the R2400.
> 
> You don't necessarily need to use VFA paper, just use the VFA paper
> setting.  Try it with your PR with the ABW settings of 6h/1v.  I 
get a
> very pleasing tone that is very close to what I get with Eboni BO on
> that paper (that was my goal - I set out to try and match that 
tone).
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>  I also put the Tone setting on "light" and ink config to -5%.
> 
> These are my standard settings for everything:
> 
> Paper Type: Velvet Fine Art
> ABW/Tone: Light
> Ink Config/Color density: -5%
> 
> I have this as a Saved setting.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: OT - B&W Printing

2005-08-27 by Clayton Jones

Martin and Walt,

>>>>>
>I have found that, if I set my color setting (PS CS) working 
>spaces "grey," to Gamma 2.2 and my ABW prints, either warm or 
>neutral to a fine adjustment of "dark," I get a pretty good 
>match to my screen.   I do not know if this is unversal, but 
>it does work for me.
>>>>>

>>>>>
I am also using the ABW driver with "light" (smoother step wedge)
and "neutral" settings. I have not reduced the ink limit. Do you
have any correspondence between screen and print (i.e. something like
a soft proof) and if so, what are you using for screen view
(workspace, monitor calibration, etc.)? I am using a workspace of
gamma 2.2 and a monitor calibrated to 5K and 2.2. The screen view is
much darker than the print and the shadow compression is somewhat
different between the two; so I use a PS curve for viewing to fairly
closely match the print. But I thought you might be doing something
better than this.
>>>>>

I'll try to explain what I'm doing, but first please understand that
these various settings push and pull an image at both ends, so there
are various combinations that can end up with virtually the same
results.  This explanation is in no way suggesting that it is superior
or that I'm suggesting others should do the same.   It's just what
works well for me.

This method originates with the BO technique, which uses "Same As
Source" as the printer profile setting (I use PS CS, I think in CS2
this is called "No Color Management").  This means that the front end
(image) profile does not affect the print, it only affects how the
image looks on screen (for a full explanation of how this works please
see my article #4 at the link below).

Since the Epson BO driver puts out a fairly light print, the image
itself has to be a bit darker to get the proper density.  Because the
image is darker it looks darker on screen, so in order to get good
WYSIWYG (make the screen image match the print), I use a front end
profile of Dot Gain 18 or 20%, which makes the image look
lighter on screen than GG2.2.  

This has proven to be a very reliable and consistent approach.  I have
set the PS default gray space to use a custom DG18 curve, so every new
grayscale image gets this to start with.  Depending on the image, I
may change this to match the first test print, anywhere from DG15 to
DG20.  This gives me excellent WYSIWYG all through the entire process.

I use EEM for proofing.  When it's time for a final print on some
other paper, I usually have to tack on an adjustment curve to tweak
the contrast and/or density to match the proof.  I save this curve
with the image, usually naming it with the paper name.

Suppose now I open an existing image to print to the 2400.  Since the
image is darker, I've found that setting ABW/Tone to Lighter and
reducing the ink limit by 5% produces a print of nearly identical
density to the BO version (which probably means I'm using less ink as
well).  All that's required is an adjustment curve to tweak the
contrast to match the proof, depending on what paper and ABW color
settings are used - essentially the same workflow as I've been using
all along.

Having this consistency is paying off, because I can work up an image
using BO on the R200 (which saves a lot of expensive K3 ink) using my
tried and true methods.  If I decide the final image will look better
as a K3 print, I can then send it to the 2400 using those saved driver
settings and be right in the ball park first time, only needing minor
tweaks on the paper curve .

This was put to the test last week when I made a formal portrait of
some friends at church.  I worked up the proof in BO and then sent it
to the 2400.  No base adjustments were needed to the image, just the
usual curve tacked on to make the final image match the proof.

I was real worried that my entire workflow would have to change with
this printer, so needless to say I was VERY happy to find I can
continue to work this way and don't have to change any of my existing
images.

If you have been using "Same As Source" for the back end and GG2.2 for
the front end, then your images are probably lighter and setting Tone
to Lighter and/or Ink Limit to -5% may not be a good thing.  But there
are many possible combinations of these things, so you just have to
find what works best for you.  But at least maybe this will shed some
light on it.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: OT - B&W Printing

2005-08-28 by wwodets

Clayton-- Thanks.  I'm going to mull this over.  Walt


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Martin and Walt,
> 
> >>>>>
> >I have found that, if I set my color setting (PS CS) working 
> >spaces "grey," to Gamma 2.2 and my ABW prints, either warm or 
> >neutral to a fine adjustment of "dark," I get a pretty good 
> >match to my screen.   I do not know if this is unversal, but 
> >it does work for me.
> >>>>>
> 
> >>>>>
> I am also using the ABW driver with "light" (smoother step wedge)
> and "neutral" settings. I have not reduced the ink limit. Do you
> have any correspondence between screen and print (i.e. something 
like
> a soft proof) and if so, what are you using for screen view
> (workspace, monitor calibration, etc.)? I am using a workspace of
> gamma 2.2 and a monitor calibrated to 5K and 2.2. The screen view is
> much darker than the print and the shadow compression is somewhat
> different between the two; so I use a PS curve for viewing to fairly
> closely match the print. But I thought you might be doing something
> better than this.
> >>>>>
> 
> I'll try to explain what I'm doing, but first please understand that
> these various settings push and pull an image at both ends, so there
> are various combinations that can end up with virtually the same
> results.  This explanation is in no way suggesting that it is 
superior
> or that I'm suggesting others should do the same.   It's just what
> works well for me.
> 
> This method originates with the BO technique, which uses "Same As
> Source" as the printer profile setting (I use PS CS, I think in CS2
> this is called "No Color Management").  This means that the front 
end
> (image) profile does not affect the print, it only affects how the
> image looks on screen (for a full explanation of how this works 
please
> see my article #4 at the link below).
> 
> Since the Epson BO driver puts out a fairly light print, the image
> itself has to be a bit darker to get the proper density.  Because 
the
> image is darker it looks darker on screen, so in order to get good
> WYSIWYG (make the screen image match the print), I use a front end
> profile of Dot Gain 18 or 20%, which makes the image look
> lighter on screen than GG2.2.  
> 
> This has proven to be a very reliable and consistent approach.  I 
have
> set the PS default gray space to use a custom DG18 curve, so every 
new
> grayscale image gets this to start with.  Depending on the image, I
> may change this to match the first test print, anywhere from DG15 to
> DG20.  This gives me excellent WYSIWYG all through the entire 
process.
> 
> I use EEM for proofing.  When it's time for a final print on some
> other paper, I usually have to tack on an adjustment curve to tweak
> the contrast and/or density to match the proof.  I save this curve
> with the image, usually naming it with the paper name.
> 
> Suppose now I open an existing image to print to the 2400.  Since 
the
> image is darker, I've found that setting ABW/Tone to Lighter and
> reducing the ink limit by 5% produces a print of nearly identical
> density to the BO version (which probably means I'm using less ink 
as
> well).  All that's required is an adjustment curve to tweak the
> contrast to match the proof, depending on what paper and ABW color
> settings are used - essentially the same workflow as I've been using
> all along.
> 
> Having this consistency is paying off, because I can work up an 
image
> using BO on the R200 (which saves a lot of expensive K3 ink) using 
my
> tried and true methods.  If I decide the final image will look 
better
> as a K3 print, I can then send it to the 2400 using those saved 
driver
> settings and be right in the ball park first time, only needing 
minor
> tweaks on the paper curve .
> 
> This was put to the test last week when I made a formal portrait of
> some friends at church.  I worked up the proof in BO and then sent 
it
> to the 2400.  No base adjustments were needed to the image, just the
> usual curve tacked on to make the final image match the proof.
> 
> I was real worried that my entire workflow would have to change with
> this printer, so needless to say I was VERY happy to find I can
> continue to work this way and don't have to change any of my 
existing
> images.
> 
> If you have been using "Same As Source" for the back end and GG2.2 
for
> the front end, then your images are probably lighter and setting 
Tone
> to Lighter and/or Ink Limit to -5% may not be a good thing.  But 
there
> are many possible combinations of these things, so you just have to
> find what works best for you.  But at least maybe this will shed 
some
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> light on it.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: OT - B&W Printing

2005-08-28 by wwodets

Clayton-- I've mulled it over and thank you for the detailed response.

You did not say if your monitor is hardware calibrated and to what 
settings.

I am always using "No COlor Mangement/Same as Source."

What you say makes perfect sense and I've tried most of these 
approaches.  The dot gain 20% is, incidentally, what Epson recommends 
for the workspace/profile with the ABW with the "darker" setting in 
the driver.  The overall density matches pretty well (screen to 
print) with this setting, but the lower end of the tonal scale is 
quite different and the driver is compressing the blacks.  I believe 
that Epson is inclined to this in their drivers because of all the 
sensitivity about D-max and the desire for prints "with punch."

I went to the "lighter" setting in the Epson driver because it opens 
up the shadow areas very nicely (as compared to any of the other 
settings) and the correspondence (in terms of *spacing* or 
linearization) to a step wedge (screen to print) is quite good.  This 
however leaves the screen image darker than the print in tems of 
overall density; and the coorespondence in shadow separation is not 
exact.  A dot gain workspace would, of course, only agggravate this 
problem.

So I end up, like you, using a curve at the top of the file.  I am 
simply using mine to match the screen view to the print (and I turn 
it off for printing) and I then use a curve to get what I want on the 
screen (which I do not turn off to print).  You are using your curve 
to match the print to the screen view (or to previous prints on the 
smaller printer or BO).  What I'd like is a system that did not 
require this "special" curves layer for each file (the screen 
matching one in my case), and I have no need to match to a different 
printer or print.

I suppose this means profiling the ABW mode and using that profile 
for Soft Proof.  (Or conversely, creating a profile for printing that 
matches the print to the screen.) What would be necessary for this 
profiling?  Eye-One Photo?  Or just the i1 photospectrometer and the 
software mentioned earlier to read desnity rather than LAB?

Thanks again.

Walt





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Martin and Walt,
> 
> >>>>>
> >I have found that, if I set my color setting (PS CS) working 
> >spaces "grey," to Gamma 2.2 and my ABW prints, either warm or 
> >neutral to a fine adjustment of "dark," I get a pretty good 
> >match to my screen.   I do not know if this is unversal, but 
> >it does work for me.
> >>>>>
> 
> >>>>>
> I am also using the ABW driver with "light" (smoother step wedge)
> and "neutral" settings. I have not reduced the ink limit. Do you
> have any correspondence between screen and print (i.e. something 
like
> a soft proof) and if so, what are you using for screen view
> (workspace, monitor calibration, etc.)? I am using a workspace of
> gamma 2.2 and a monitor calibrated to 5K and 2.2. The screen view is
> much darker than the print and the shadow compression is somewhat
> different between the two; so I use a PS curve for viewing to fairly
> closely match the print. But I thought you might be doing something
> better than this.
> >>>>>
> 
> I'll try to explain what I'm doing, but first please understand that
> these various settings push and pull an image at both ends, so there
> are various combinations that can end up with virtually the same
> results.  This explanation is in no way suggesting that it is 
superior
> or that I'm suggesting others should do the same.   It's just what
> works well for me.
> 
> This method originates with the BO technique, which uses "Same As
> Source" as the printer profile setting (I use PS CS, I think in CS2
> this is called "No Color Management").  This means that the front 
end
> (image) profile does not affect the print, it only affects how the
> image looks on screen (for a full explanation of how this works 
please
> see my article #4 at the link below).
> 
> Since the Epson BO driver puts out a fairly light print, the image
> itself has to be a bit darker to get the proper density.  Because 
the
> image is darker it looks darker on screen, so in order to get good
> WYSIWYG (make the screen image match the print), I use a front end
> profile of Dot Gain 18 or 20%, which makes the image look
> lighter on screen than GG2.2.  
> 
> This has proven to be a very reliable and consistent approach.  I 
have
> set the PS default gray space to use a custom DG18 curve, so every 
new
> grayscale image gets this to start with.  Depending on the image, I
> may change this to match the first test print, anywhere from DG15 to
> DG20.  This gives me excellent WYSIWYG all through the entire 
process.
> 
> I use EEM for proofing.  When it's time for a final print on some
> other paper, I usually have to tack on an adjustment curve to tweak
> the contrast and/or density to match the proof.  I save this curve
> with the image, usually naming it with the paper name.
> 
> Suppose now I open an existing image to print to the 2400.  Since 
the
> image is darker, I've found that setting ABW/Tone to Lighter and
> reducing the ink limit by 5% produces a print of nearly identical
> density to the BO version (which probably means I'm using less ink 
as
> well).  All that's required is an adjustment curve to tweak the
> contrast to match the proof, depending on what paper and ABW color
> settings are used - essentially the same workflow as I've been using
> all along.
> 
> Having this consistency is paying off, because I can work up an 
image
> using BO on the R200 (which saves a lot of expensive K3 ink) using 
my
> tried and true methods.  If I decide the final image will look 
better
> as a K3 print, I can then send it to the 2400 using those saved 
driver
> settings and be right in the ball park first time, only needing 
minor
> tweaks on the paper curve .
> 
> This was put to the test last week when I made a formal portrait of
> some friends at church.  I worked up the proof in BO and then sent 
it
> to the 2400.  No base adjustments were needed to the image, just the
> usual curve tacked on to make the final image match the proof.
> 
> I was real worried that my entire workflow would have to change with
> this printer, so needless to say I was VERY happy to find I can
> continue to work this way and don't have to change any of my 
existing
> images.
> 
> If you have been using "Same As Source" for the back end and GG2.2 
for
> the front end, then your images are probably lighter and setting 
Tone
> to Lighter and/or Ink Limit to -5% may not be a good thing.  But 
there
> are many possible combinations of these things, so you just have to
> find what works best for you.  But at least maybe this will shed 
some
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> light on it.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: OT - B&W Printing

2005-08-28 by Clayton Jones

Hello Walt,

>You did not say if your monitor is hardware calibrated and to 
>what settings.

I haven't done any calibration, but it's brightness and contrast are
set so that I can always see all the steps on web sites that show
grayscale steps with warnings to make sure they can all be seen.


>I went to the "lighter" setting in the Epson driver because it opens 
>up the shadow areas very nicely (as compared to any of the other 
>settings) and the correspondence (in terms of *spacing* or 
>linearization) to a step wedge (screen to print) is quite good.  

Ok, that's good to know.  I guess I stumbled on it by accident, just
looking for a density match to my old proof prints.


>This however leaves the screen image darker than the print in 
>terms of overall density; and the coorespondence in shadow 
>separation is not exact.  A dot gain workspace would, of course, 
>only agggravate this problem.

Are you sure?  If the image is too dark then try changing the front
end profile to DG15 and try that.  Just keep going down in DG value
(the screen gets lighter) until you find the best match. I found 15 to
be too light and 20 to be too dark for most images, so I made a custom
DG18 curve and it works very well.  As for matching the contrast,
these curves don't have to be simple 1-point density curves.  Why not
make an s-curve or whatever it needs to match the screen to the print
and set that as the default profile?.  It will automatically be
assigned to every grayscale image.  Seems like it would be essentially
what you're doing already, but without a manual curve on the image to
be turning on and off all the time.  


 
>So I end up, like you, using a curve at the top of the file.  I am 
>simply using mine to match the screen view to the print (and I turn 
>it off for printing) and I then use a curve to get what I want on 
>the screen (which I do not turn off to print). 

This all sounds terribly inefficient. If the custom profile idea would
work it would probably save time and peace of mind.



>You are using your curve to match the print to the screen view 
>(or to previous prints on the smaller printer or BO).  

Ummm, not exactly.  The screen view is already a good match to the
proof, so I'm not concerned with that any more.  I'm using the curve
to make the K3 print match the BO final proof print.  The proof is the
goal - it is how I want any other prints to look (in terms of density
and contrast).  Once the proof is done, it becomes the model for any
other prints made, regardless of paper, tone, printer or ink set.   


>What I'd like is a system that did not require this "special" 
>curves layer for each file (the screen matching one in my case), 
>and I have no need to match to a different printer or print.

I think the custom profile idea is the best bet.  I really think it's
worth a try and its easy to do.  

 
Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: OT - B&W Printing

2005-08-29 by Clayton Jones

Hello Walt,

>>You are using your curve to match the print to the screen view 
>>(or to previous prints on the smaller printer or BO).  
> 
>Ummm, not exactly....

Oops!  Now I understand what you were saying, sorry.  I misunderstood,
you had it right.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

epson 1100 workforce printer

2010-03-11 by borismgk

Does anyone have experience printing black and white photos on the epson 1100 workforce printer?  If so what were the results,  i.e., good prints, capapbility to print black only?, worth buying. etc.  Any feedback based on experience with this printer would be helpful.

thanks in advance,
boris

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