Digital BW, The Print

Hi everyone,

I am trying to print one B&W photo, using my Epson R2400 printer but, whn I try to choose 
Advanced Black and White mode, It is not chosable anymore... Anyone knows what am I doing 
wrong?

Thanks for the support.

Best regards,
Nuno

Nuno,

>I am trying to print one B&W photo, using my Epson R2400 printer
but, 
>whn I try to choose Advanced Black and White mode, It is not
chosable 
>anymore... Anyone knows what am I doing wrong?

You must have a paper type selected which has a "Best Photo" quality
setting, and Best Photo must be selected.  For example, Plain Paper
doesn't have a BQ setting, so ABW won't be available.  Enhanced Matte
has two quality settings, Photo and Best Photo.  If Photo is selected
ABW won't be available.  Confusing at first, but it won't take long to
learn the different settings.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nuno_quinteira" 
<nuno_quinteira@y...> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I am trying to print one B&W photo, using my Epson R2400 printer but, whn I try to choose 
> Advanced Black and White mode, It is not chosable anymore... Anyone knows what am I 
doing 
> wrong?
> 
> Thanks for the support.
> 
> Best regards,
> Nuno

Try this web site, a very detailed review with all the setting shown.  A good tutorial for the 
2400:  http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/16/epson-r2400-and-ultrachrome-k3-ink-
report/

I used it to get started and it really helped.

Martin

Thank you all for your prompt help! 

I was reading this Photoshop News article and it is a really detailed 
one. I just cannot find the option on PS CS to disable Color Management 
in Color Handeling Option Menu. As I understand, disabeling this is 
essencial to use ABW.

Best regards,
Nuno

You just send a file from PS with Same as Source (or No Colour Management in
CS2).

> From: nuno_quinteira <nuno_quinteira@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:03:01 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Problems printing with R2400
> 
> Thank you all for your prompt help!
> 
> I was reading this Photoshop News article and it is a really detailed
> one. I just cannot find the option on PS CS to disable Color Management
> in Color Handeling Option Menu. As I understand, disabeling this is
> essencial to use ABW.
> 
> Best regards,
> Nuno

Steve,

Surely the correct setting in CS2 for printing with AB&W in the Epson 2400 
is to choose 'Let printer determine colors' in CS2. That means CS2 does not 
do any color conversions, but does send the working-space profile with the 
image for the printer to sort out in its AB&W routines.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>


You just send a file from PS with Same as Source (or No Colour Management in
CS2).

Hi Bob

Apparently not.  My understanding is it doesn't use the ICC profile.  See
here for example:

http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/16/epson-r2400-and-ultrachrome-k3-ink-repor
t/

They have simply made the printer (within tolerances) linear L* from white
point to black point at least for the Darker setting.  I assume the
adjustment sliders/settings introduce changes to linearity/gamma and black
and white points but I do not play with these.  I prefer to get it right on
screen and don't do any adjustment in the driver controls.  At any rate
though I use Roy's QTR create ICC profile to profile the luminance of the
AB&W and use PS to convert to this profile on the fly before sending the
(adjusted) file values to the printer.  The output is just fantastic.
Linear L* output has all the problems we have debated under the QTR banner
for the last couple of years (ie gamma shift).

Steve

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:37:04 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Problems printing with R2400
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Surely the correct setting in CS2 for printing with AB&W in the Epson 2400
> is to choose 'Let printer determine colors' in CS2. That means CS2 does not
> do any color conversions, but does send the working-space profile with the
> image for the printer to sort out in its AB&W routines.
> 
> Bob Frost.
>

Steve,

Whatever that article says, I don't believe there is any need to turn off 
color management before sending an image to the R2400 using AB&W mode. If 
you select 'Let Printer determine........' in CS2, AFAIK it does just that - 
the printer driver determines what it is going to do. If it needs to do a 
profile conversion it will; if it doesn't, it won't. Sending the profile 
can't do any harm if the driver doesn't want to do a conversion.

As I use Epson paper and inks with my R2400, I use that same setting in CS2 
for both color and B&W prints, because the Epson profiles are very good, and 
I can't see that any custom profiles I might make would be any better (for 
those papers and inks).

The only reason I can see for using the 'Turn off Color management' setting 
in CS2 would be if I was printing a profile target.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>

Apparently not.  My understanding is it doesn't use the ICC profile.  See
here for example:

http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/16/epson-r2400-and-ultrachrome-k3-ink-repor
t/

If you set PS to Let Printer then you are sending unadjusted file numbers
and an ICC profile.  Everything I have read says that the Printer driver
does not use the profile.  So it's the same as No Colour Management.  I
think the point is you don't want to send the driver file data adjusted for
some profile that does not portray the printer correctly.  At any rate, like
I said the output can be significantly improved if you profile it with a
greyscale profile and use colour management practice to scale the luminance
for white point and black point.  This is what QTR Create ICC does.  In
essence the AB&W driver behaves like QTR does/did for the last few years
without the benefit of this module.  It simply generates a relatively
linear-ish L* output from imperfect black to white.  But unless you have a
means of appropriately scaling your file data (which goes from perfect black
to perfect white) to fit in this narrower linear space then the results is
not as good as it should be.  QTR Create ICC was created for this purpose.
So my suggestion is not to turn off colour management in PS, rather to use
it - but with the right profile.  The profiles provided by Epson (are colour
profiles and) were not made by measuring the stimulus-response behaviour of
the Adv B&W driver.  (They were made by measuring the stimulus-response
behaviour of the colour part of the driver.)

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:07:30 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Problems printing with R2400
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Whatever that article says, I don't believe there is any need to turn off
> color management before sending an image to the R2400 using AB&W mode. If
> you select 'Let Printer determine........' in CS2, AFAIK it does just that -
> the printer driver determines what it is going to do. If it needs to do a
> profile conversion it will; if it doesn't, it won't. Sending the profile
> can't do any harm if the driver doesn't want to do a conversion.
> 
> As I use Epson paper and inks with my R2400, I use that same setting in CS2
> for both color and B&W prints, because the Epson profiles are very good, and
> I can't see that any custom profiles I might make would be any better (for
> those papers and inks).
> 
> The only reason I can see for using the 'Turn off Color management' setting
> in CS2 would be if I was printing a profile target.
> 
> Bob Frost.

Steve,

> If you set PS to Let Printer then you are sending unadjusted file numbers
> and an ICC profile.  Everything I have read says that the Printer driver
> does not use the profile.  So it's the same as No Colour Management.


We're agreed then; that is the point I was making - you don't need to turn 
off color management.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>

Yes and no.  You need to turn it OFF in PS - ie make sure that PS is not
doing colour management and converting the file data for a profile that is
not consistent with the output of the printer for that driver mode (eg any
Epson supplied colour profile - which is all of them).  Even if you send a
profile (so colour management is off in PS but passed to the printer as Let
Printer Determine Colors), when you select AB&W in the driver this profile
is ignored (because it is a colour profile and does not portray the
stimulus-response behaviour of the driver in ABW mode).

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:33:48 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Problems printing with R2400
> 
> Steve,
> 
>> If you set PS to Let Printer then you are sending unadjusted file numbers
>> and an ICC profile.  Everything I have read says that the Printer driver
>> does not use the profile.  So it's the same as No Colour Management.
> 
> 
> We're agreed then; that is the point I was making - you don't need to turn
> off color management.
> 
> Bob Frost.

Steve-

I'm using the 2400 exactly as Steve describes:  CM off with a direct 
print to the ABW driver and CM on with the QTR Create Profiles, which 
are excellent on the ABW prints.  The ABW driver is expecting a 2.2 
file and acts accordingly.  So using PSCM with anything other than a 
2.2 print space would introduce distortions that Epson did not 
intend.  Epson has published a few workflow "white papers" for the 
printer and all show PS color management off.

Best,
Walt




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" 
<bob@f...> wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> Whatever that article says, I don't believe there is any need to 
turn off 
> color management before sending an image to the R2400 using AB&W 
mode. If 
> you select 'Let Printer determine........' in CS2, AFAIK it does 
just that - 
> the printer driver determines what it is going to do. If it needs 
to do a 
> profile conversion it will; if it doesn't, it won't. Sending the 
profile 
> can't do any harm if the driver doesn't want to do a conversion.
> 
> As I use Epson paper and inks with my R2400, I use that same 
setting in CS2 
> for both color and B&W prints, because the Epson profiles are very 
good, and 
> I can't see that any custom profiles I might make would be any 
better (for 
> those papers and inks).
> 
> The only reason I can see for using the 'Turn off Color management' 
setting 
> in CS2 would be if I was printing a profile target.
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@b...>
> 
> Apparently not.  My understanding is it doesn't use the ICC 
profile.  See
> here for example:
> 
> http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/16/epson-r2400-and-ultrachrome-k3-
ink-repor
> t/

I am using gamma 1.8 on my mac.....Is that why I use the "normal"  
setting in the ABW mode, which works great. Other people use the  
"darker" setting, which is the default.
So are they using 2.2? It looks like epson made the "normal, dark,  
darker, and darkest settings to compensate for gamma....correct?

On Sep 14, 2005, at 11:50 AM, wwodets wrote:

> The ABW driver is expecting a 2.2
> file and acts accordingly.  So using PSCM with anything other than a
> 2.2 print space would introduce distortions that Epson did not
> intend.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Douglas meeuwsen 
<lipshurt@m...> wrote:
> I am using gamma 1.8 on my mac.....Is that why I use the "normal"  
> setting in the ABW mode, which works great. Other people use the  
> "darker" setting, which is the default.

I would guess that's the reason "normal" looks like your screen.  
Although Epson doesn't say it, I think these settings are differences 
in gamma.  I've seen the native ABW curves in doing icc profiles for 
the ABW settings.  The "light" setting has a fairly significant, but 
smooth gamma sag, probably a gamma of 1.5.  Epson days these settings 
determines print "softness," which is probably Epsonese for gamma.  
Too bad they don't communicate more fully and accurately--we might 
not even need this forum.  So my gamma guess from "light" 
to "darkest" is: 1.5 (light), 1.8 (normal), 2.0 (dark), 2.2 (darker)
and 2.5 (darkest).

> So are they using 2.2? It looks like epson made the "normal, dark,  
> darker, and darkest settings to compensate for gamma....correct?
> 
I think most people are using 2.2 for gray space, and this is also 
the gamma of Adobe RGB.  I understand that 2.2 is now also the 
standard for MACs

Hi Walt,

But I am using a 2.2 print space - Adobe98 - so no problems with CM on.

Could you give the urls of the Epson white papers?

Thanks,

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "wwodets" <odets@...>


I'm using the 2400 exactly as Steve describes:  CM off with a direct 
print to the ABW driver and CM on with the QTR Create Profiles, which 
are excellent on the ABW prints.  The ABW driver is expecting a 2.2 
file and acts accordingly.  So using PSCM with anything other than a 
2.2 print space would introduce distortions that Epson did not 
intend.  Epson has published a few workflow "white papers" for the 
printer and all show PS color management off.

If you Let Printer Determine Colors colour management is likely not turned
on. I think Epson likely stresses No Color Management to simply avoid this
type of confusion - people thinking they need a color ICC profile when they
don't. 

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:37:26 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Problems printing with R2400
> 
> Hi Walt,
> 
> But I am using a 2.2 print space - Adobe98 - so no problems with CM on.
> 
> Could you give the urls of the Epson white papers?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "wwodets" <odets@...>
> 
> 
> I'm using the 2400 exactly as Steve describes:  CM off with a direct
> print to the ABW driver and CM on with the QTR Create Profiles, which
> are excellent on the ABW prints.  The ABW driver is expecting a 2.2
> file and acts accordingly.  So using PSCM with anything other than a
> 2.2 print space would introduce distortions that Epson did not
> intend.  Epson has published a few workflow "white papers" for the
> printer and all show PS color management off.

Bob-

Here's one:

ftp://ftp.epson.com/webfiles/icc/Color-Managed-Workflow.pdf

Three others were sent to me as attachments, and I will send them in 
an email.

Best,
Walt




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" 
<bob@f...> wrote:
> Hi Walt,
> 
> But I am using a 2.2 print space - Adobe98 - so no problems with CM 
on.
> 
> Could you give the urls of the Epson white papers?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "wwodets" <odets@c...>
> 
> 
> I'm using the 2400 exactly as Steve describes:  CM off with a 
direct 
> print to the ABW driver and CM on with the QTR Create Profiles, 
which 
> are excellent on the ABW prints.  The ABW driver is expecting a 2.2 
> file and acts accordingly.  So using PSCM with anything other than 
a 

> 2.2 print space would introduce distortions that Epson did not 
> intend.  Epson has published a few workflow "white papers" for the 
> printer and all show PS color management off.

oop.s...I just checked again, and I use the "dark" setting with my  
gamma a 1.8, not the "normal" setting that said before......and it  
matches my screen very well. I am using an emac crt monitor, with  
just the simple built method of calibration. For Color prints with  
the 2400 using the epson profiles, the screen matches just as well  
also.......very easy. Doug M
On Sep 14, 2005, at 1:13 PM, wwodets wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Douglas meeuwsen
> <lipshurt@m...> wrote:
> > I am using gamma 1.8 on my mac.....Is that why I use the "normal"
> > setting in the ABW mode, which works great. Other people use the
> > "darker" setting, which is the default.
>
> I would guess that's the reason "normal" looks like your screen.
> Although Epson doesn't say it, I think these settings are differences
> in gamma.  I've seen the native ABW curves in doing icc profiles for
> the ABW settings.  The "light" setting has a fairly significant, but
> smooth gamma sag, probably a gamma of 1.5.  Epson days these settings
> determines print "softness," which is probably Epsonese for gamma.
> Too bad they don't communicate more fully and accurately--we might
> not even need this forum.  So my gamma guess from "light"
> to "darkest" is: 1.5 (light), 1.8 (normal), 2.0 (dark), 2.2 (darker)
> and 2.5 (darkest).
>
> > So are they using 2.2? It looks like epson made the "normal, dark,
> > darker, and darkest settings to compensate for gamma....correct?
> >
> I think most people are using 2.2 for gray space, and this is also
> the gamma of Adobe RGB.  I understand that 2.2 is now also the
> standard for MACs
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The gamma at which you calibrated your screen is irrelevant as PS's colour
management colour manages the file-to-display rendition.

(Also unless by chance your display's black point equals that of the
ink/paper combination you are using then it is simply not possible that they
match well without using a proof that profiles the printer greyscale.)

> From: Douglas meeuwsen <lipshurt@...>

> 
> oop.s...I just checked again, and I use the "dark" setting with my
> gamma a 1.8, not the "normal" setting that said before......and it
> matches my screen very well. I am using an emac crt monitor, with
> just the simple built method of calibration. For Color prints with
> the 2400 using the epson profiles, the screen matches just as well
> also.......very easy. Doug M

Steve,

On a Windows PC, choosing 'Let printer determine colors' means that CS2 
sends the image with its working space profile to the printer driver. The 
printer driver then uses Windows ICM2 to do the conversions necessary from 
the working space to the appropriate printer profile, assuming you have 
chosen the correct setting (color controls, photoenhance, icm) for this in 
the printer driver and not turned color management off in the printer 
driver. This is the normal Epson mode for printing with its profiles. These 
driver settings also include the new AdobeRGB setting that apparently 
enhances the color gamut of the R2400.

On the other hand, if you want to use custom profiles, you usually turn 
color management off in the printer driver and choose 'Let Photoshop manage 
colors' in CS2. Then Photoshop uses its own ACE conversion software to do 
the conversions from working space to custom printer profile, and the 
printer driver does not do any color management. You may occasionally leave 
color management on in the printer driver (see below).

Then if (with your third hand) you want to print a printer profiling target, 
you choose Color Management off in CS2, and choose whatever setting you are 
going to use for printing in the printer driver. This will usually be no 
color management, but some get better results with earlier printers by using 
color controls/photoenhance in the driver.

And (with your fourth hand) if you want to print using the AB&W setting, NOT 
using custom profiles, you select 'Let printer determine colors' in CS2 to 
make sure that CS2 is not doing any color conversions. The printer driver 
will then do whatever it wants to give you the AB&W; I would have thought it 
would take notice of the working space profile, but I haven't yet sent any 
with different working spaces to test this.

I can remember some years ago on the Epson inkjet list some of us compared 
all the different combinations of settings in photoshop and settings in the 
printer driver and worked out which ones gave the same results and which 
ones gave different results. Quite fun at the time! It led to some lively 
discussions on the 'right' and 'wrong' way of doing things, and slowly 
people began to realise that there may be more than one 'right' way and many 
more than one 'wrong' way. Macs do have some dialog differences to Windows, 
and this often caused a lot of confusion on top of everything else.

I have no problem with your way of doing the AB&W printing; if it works - 
fine. I simply replied 'n' emails ago saying that I didn't think it was the 
only way of doing AB&W printing. I may even explore your way of doing it - 
howzat?

(Been watching too much cricket, but it was great to see some very 
good-natured games and to see the Aussies lose for a change!)

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>


If you Let Printer Determine Colors colour management is likely not turned
on. I think Epson likely stresses No Color Management to simply avoid this
type of confusion - people thinking they need a color ICC profile when they
don't.

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:14 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Problems printing with R2400
> 
> Steve,
> 
> On a Windows PC, choosing 'Let printer determine colors' means that CS2
> sends the image with its working space profile to the printer driver. The
> printer driver then uses Windows ICM2 to do the conversions necessary from
> the working space to the appropriate printer profile, assuming you have
> chosen the correct setting (color controls, photoenhance, icm) for this in
> the printer driver and not turned color management off in the printer
> driver. This is the normal Epson mode for printing with its profiles. These
> driver settings also include the new AdobeRGB setting that apparently
> enhances the color gamut of the R2400.
> 
> On the other hand, if you want to use custom profiles, you usually turn
> color management off in the printer driver and choose 'Let Photoshop manage
> colors' in CS2. Then Photoshop uses its own ACE conversion software to do
> the conversions from working space to custom printer profile, and the
> printer driver does not do any color management. You may occasionally leave
> color management on in the printer driver (see below).
> 
> Then if (with your third hand) you want to print a printer profiling target,
> you choose Color Management off in CS2, and choose whatever setting you are
> going to use for printing in the printer driver. This will usually be no
> color management, but some get better results with earlier printers by using
> color controls/photoenhance in the driver.
> 
> And (with your fourth hand) if you want to print using the AB&W setting, NOT
> using custom profiles, you select 'Let printer determine colors' in CS2 to
> make sure that CS2 is not doing any color conversions. The printer driver
> will then do whatever it wants to give you the AB&W; I would have thought it
> would take notice of the working space profile, but I haven't yet sent any
> with different working spaces to test this.

The behaviour of a Mac vs a PC here is identical (albeit the GUI may look
different.)  Whether you use custom profiles or not is irrelevant - only
which CMM you want to use, PS's CMM or the printer driver's (or none at
all).  The first two of PS's options are really as simple as that.  So Let
Photoshop Determine Colors means you want to use colour management and have
PS do the conversion with its CMM.  Let Printer Determine Colors says you
want to colour manage but want the printer driver CMM to do the conversion.
In this case, the image file and the colour profile (custom or otherwise)
are sent to the printer driver.  No Color Management simply sends the image
file without a profile.  (In the first and third you obviously have to tell
the printer driver to not do any colour adjustment, in the first instance
because it has been done and you don't want it done twice and in the second
because you don't want to colour manage.)

The question at hand simply boils down to whether the printer driver, when
in Advanced B&W mode, makes use of any profile that was sent with the image
file (by someone selecting Let Printer Determine Colors).  I believe it does
not, ie that the profile is discarded and the image document is therefore
not ICC colour managed.  For similar reasons, Epson would not want you to
have PS do any colour management such that the image file is adjusted prior
to reaching the printer driver.  This makes a lot of sense.  The profiles
that are used in colour management are colour profiles and do not, as I have
said before, describe the stimulus-response behaviour of the printer when
driven in that mode.  Therefore, it does not surprise me that the early beta
testers of the new printers in their reviews used it in a non-colour managed
fashion. 

But a simple test would demonstrate things either way and I am happy to be
proven wrong.  Print a step wedge with No Color Management and measure the
results.  Print step wedges then using each of PS and the printer driver to
do the colour management to the printer ICC profile for the paper/ink you
are using. Does the output with Let Printer Determine Colors look more like
No Color Management or Let Photoshop Determine Colors?  That will tell you
whether the profile sent to the printer with Let Printer Determine Colors is
used or not.  Remember at best it can only use some sort of luminance axis
of the profile because you determine hue in the driver.  So the question is
whether the printer driver actually pulls this luminance axis information
from the profile and makes use of it.  I doubt it.  Even if it does,
personally I prefer to measure directly the luminance stimulus-response
behaviour of the driver in AB&W mode and use the PS CMM to adjust my image
file, without further ICC colour management in the driver.  This direct
profiling via QTR Create ICC can be much more accurate (I use 51 samples).

And yes it was good to see the Aussies beaten in the Ashes for the first
time since 1987 as it was good to also see the England Lions get thrashed
while touring New Zealand!

Cheers

Steve

PS:  If you run the test be sure to let us know how it turns out.  Thinking
about it further, having a conversion to at least some sort of profile for
the paper/ink one is using is likely better than nothing (whether PS does it
or otherwise).  Even if it is a colour profile then at least the black and
white points (and some greyscale observations) are then made use of and some
sort of order brought to the greyscale compression.  The image file sent to
the printer would still be greyscale but it's luminance would have been
adjusted for that of the printer - in essence a cruder version of what QTR
Create ICC does in a more focused manner.  This assumes of course that the
linearity of the printer in colour mode is consistent with that in AB&W
mode.  Like I said, I personally prefer to measure and profile the latter
directly but for those without an Eye One using the colour profile may be of
some help although only testing would tell.

Could you not just assign gamma 1.8 if you are using 2.2, or vice-versa and
send with let printer determine colors?  If the driver uses the profile, it
will come out very dark or very light, else it will come out the same.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steve Kale
 Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Problems printing with R2400
<snip>
That will tell you whether the profile sent to the printer with Let Printer
Determine Colors is
used or not.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you assign a profile it changes the file that is sent rather than sending
the same file with a profile to see if the profile is used.  So I don't
think you get the test you want.

> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:25:43 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Problems printing with R2400
> 
> Could you not just assign gamma 1.8 if you are using 2.2, or vice-versa and
> send with let printer determine colors?  If the driver uses the profile, it
> will come out very dark or very light, else it will come out the same.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody

Steve-  

I believe that with color management turned off in PS (and no ICC 
Soft Proof profile) screen gamma may affect correspondence between 
screen and print.  The ABW driver has no way of knowing what you are 
viewing the file "at" in PS because PS is not providing information 
to the ABW driver without CM turned on (one way or the other).  If 
the file itself has an embedded  profile of 2.2 (which is what I 
think the ABW driver is expecting for "darker") then this might not 
make a difference and PS would also make it look "right" on the 
screen.  If on the other hand the file had an embedded profile of, 
let's say, Gray Gamma 1.8 or Dot Gain 20%, PS would make that file 
look right on the screen, but the ABW would have no idea.

Incidentally, I am finding the use of the QTR Create ICC profiles in 
Soft Proof quite useful in predicting the print.  

Walt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> The gamma at which you calibrated your screen is irrelevant as PS's 
colour
> management colour manages the file-to-display rendition.
> 
> (Also unless by chance your display's black point equals that of the
> ink/paper combination you are using then it is simply not possible 
that they
> match well without using a proof that profiles the printer 
greyscale.)

> 
> 
> > From: Douglas meeuwsen <lipshurt@m...>
> 
> > 
> > oop.s...I just checked again, and I use the "dark" setting with my
> > gamma a 1.8, not the "normal" setting that said before......and it
> > matches my screen very well. I am using an emac crt monitor, with
> > just the simple built method of calibration. For Color prints with
> > the 2400 using the epson profiles, the screen matches just as well
> > also.......very easy. Doug M

File profile/gamma would affect things, yes.  But not the gamma the
_display_ was set at when profiled.

> From: wwodets <odets@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:21:44 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Screen Gamma, was [Digital BW] Re: Problems printing with R2400
> 
> Steve-  
> 
> I believe that with color management turned off in PS (and no ICC
> Soft Proof profile) screen gamma may affect correspondence between
> screen and print.  The ABW driver has no way of knowing what you are
> viewing the file "at" in PS because PS is not providing information
> to the ABW driver without CM turned on (one way or the other).  If
> the file itself has an embedded  profile of 2.2 (which is what I
> think the ABW driver is expecting for "darker") then this might not
> make a difference and PS would also make it look "right" on the
> screen.  If on the other hand the file had an embedded profile of,
> let's say, Gray Gamma 1.8 or Dot Gain 20%, PS would make that file
> look right on the screen, but the ABW would have no idea.
> 
> Incidentally, I am finding the use of the QTR Create ICC profiles in
> Soft Proof quite useful in predicting the print.
> 
> Walt
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> The gamma at which you calibrated your screen is irrelevant as PS's
> colour
>> management colour manages the file-to-display rendition.
>> 
>> (Also unless by chance your display's black point equals that of the
>> ink/paper combination you are using then it is simply not possible
> that they
>> match well without using a proof that profiles the printer
> greyscale.)

This makes sense to me, and of course the driver knows what printer
I'm using (and in my  case which inks, since i'm using the standard
set) and it knows which paper I'm using, (Epson Premium Semigloss)
because I select that in the print driver as well. So while in 
color mode I'm choosing the appropriate profile for that
paper/printer in the PS Print Preview dialog (because PS doesn't
really know about my printer), in ABW I've assumed I don't
really have to worry about the print driver knowing enough
if I'm letting the printer manage the "color"-- it gets the basic
paper/ink info it needs from its own logic and settings, yes?

Incidentally, what are people seeing for a black point for ABW on
the 2400 (eg on Epson Premium Semigloss with PK)  and does
the Normal,Dark,Darker setting change this, or just 
change the other parts of the curve? I didn't quite follow the
threadon this one.....

Linda

> > The question at hand simply boils down to whether the printer
driver, when
> in Advanced B&W mode, makes use of any profile that was sent with
the image
> file (by someone selecting Let Printer Determine Colors).  I
believe it does
> not, ie that the profile is discarded and the image document is
therefore
> not ICC colour managed.  For similar reasons, Epson would not want
you to
> have PS do any colour management such that the image file is
adjusted prior
> to reaching the printer driver.  This makes a lot of sense.  The
profiles
> that are used in colour management are colour profiles and do not,
as I have
> said before, describe the stimulus-response behaviour of the
printer when
> driven in that mode.  Therefore, it does not surprise me that the
early beta
> testers of the new printers in their reviews used it in a
non-colour managed
> fashion. 
...
> Thinking
> about it further, having a conversion to at least some sort of
profile for
> the paper/ink one is using is likely better than nothing (whether
PS does it
> or otherwise).  Even if it is a colour profile then at least the
black and
> white points (and some greyscale observations) are then made use of
and some
> sort of order brought to the greyscale compression.  The image file
sent to
> the printer would still be greyscale but it's luminance would have
been
> adjusted for that of the printer - in essence a cruder version of
what QTR
> Create ICC does in a more focused manner.  This assumes of course
that the
> linearity of the printer in colour mode is consistent with that in
AB&W
> mode.  Like I said, I personally prefer to measure and profile the
latter
> directly but for those without an Eye One using the colour profile
may be of
> some help although only testing would tell.

Hi Linda


> From: "Linda J. Thorsen" <linda@...>

> 
> This makes sense to me, and of course the driver knows what printer
> I'm using (and in my  case which inks, since i'm using the standard
> set) and it knows which paper I'm using, (Epson Premium Semigloss)
> because I select that in the print driver as well. So while in
> color mode I'm choosing the appropriate profile for that
> paper/printer in the PS Print Preview dialog (because PS doesn't
> really know about my printer),

Here, if you have PS adjust the image file for the printer ICC profile, you
are making the assumption that the printer's greyscale output in Advanced
B&W mode is consistent with its output in Colour mode - the profile you are
using is a colour ICC profile compiled by printing the response behaviour of
the printer in colour mode.  This MAY be the case in the default settings
but I doubt it.  It can NOT be correct for all the possible settings in ABW
mode. So if this is a help then it is a bit pot luck.  If you are Let[ting]
Printer Determine Colors there is a debate as to whether the printer driver
uses the profile you send at all.  But again, I would say it is unlikely and
that it is more likely the driver at best has its own lookup tables for ABW
mode for each type of paper selected.

>in ABW I've assumed I don't
> really have to worry about the print driver knowing enough
> if I'm letting the printer manage the "color"-- it gets the basic
> paper/ink info it needs from its own logic and settings, yes?
> 
> Incidentally, what are people seeing for a black point for ABW on
> the 2400 (eg on Epson Premium Semigloss with PK)  and does
> the Normal,Dark,Darker setting change this, or just
> change the other parts of the curve? I didn't quite follow the
> threadon this one.....

It just changes the gamma or contrast but not the two end points.  The
Highlight Point Shift option does shift the white point so that there is ink
laid down in all parts of the image to avoid the gloss differential between
ink and paper.

QTR Create ICC is a much more sensible approach:  measure and profile the
stimulus-response behaviour of the printer IN ABW MODE and have PS use that
profile to adjust image file data prior to it being sent to the printer.  I
am sure there are people with both a 2400 and Eye-One Photo who can print
the step wedges and create the profiles for various papers and ABW modes and
make them available to people who don't have the equipment.  You only need
to profile the default setting as it makes more sense to edit the look of an
image in PS rather than in the crude Epson driver (by selecting Lighter,
Darkest etc). Then anyone paying the $50 QTR shareware fee can use these
profiles and improve their Epson AB&W output (without having to buy an
Eye-One Photo or similar device).  I have profiles for the 4800 which I am
happy to share with those who have paid their QTR fee.  I do not, however,
have a 2400.

Steve

Linda-

Like Steve I am finding the profiles from QTR Create ICC wonderful on 
the 2400.  They are used as follows:  Let PS Determine Colors, the 
profile as the printing space, ABW neutral (which is 
automatically "darker") with the proper paper selected (the one you 
are actually using or a third party equivalent).  I also use the 
profile in Soft Proof, which simulates the paper white and helps 
visualize the print.  I am still a little unclear about how the black 
point is handled in the profile but I select BPC in PS.  Perhaps 
Steve can clear this up.  Regardless I have an extremely good screen 
to print match with the monitor calibrated to 65K, gamma 2.2 and 
luminosity at 40 cd/m2.  Both the monitor calibration and printer 
profiles are done with the i1 spectrometer.  I have done printer 
profiles with both the 21 and 51 step wedges and see no difference 
between them by eye.  Perhaps Steve has an opinion on this as well.

I am happy to share them, but have them only for EEM and VFA (both of 
course MK) and the standard Epson inks.  Each paper (Epson or third 
party) should have its own profile although the EEM and VFA are quite 
close.

On the QTR share fee, someone using these profiles would not actually 
be using QTR (but a product of QTR), but it seems like a good idea to 
support Roy for this wonderful contribution.  You'll save more than 
$50 on ink and paper your first day because of the accuracy.

Walt




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Hi Linda
> 
> 
> > From: "Linda J. Thorsen" <linda@l...>
> 
> > 
> > This makes sense to me, and of course the driver knows what 
printer
> > I'm using (and in my  case which inks, since i'm using the 
standard
> > set) and it knows which paper I'm using, (Epson Premium Semigloss)
> > because I select that in the print driver as well. So while in
> > color mode I'm choosing the appropriate profile for that
> > paper/printer in the PS Print Preview dialog (because PS doesn't
> > really know about my printer),
> 
> Here, if you have PS adjust the image file for the printer ICC 
profile, you
> are making the assumption that the printer's greyscale output in 
Advanced
> B&W mode is consistent with its output in Colour mode - the profile 
you are
> using is a colour ICC profile compiled by printing the response 
behaviour of
> the printer in colour mode.  This MAY be the case in the default 
settings
> but I doubt it.  It can NOT be correct for all the possible 
settings in ABW
> mode. So if this is a help then it is a bit pot luck.  If you are 
Let[ting]
> Printer Determine Colors there is a debate as to whether the 
printer driver
> uses the profile you send at all.  But again, I would say it is 
unlikely and
> that it is more likely the driver at best has its own lookup tables 
for ABW
> mode for each type of paper selected.
> 
> >in ABW I've assumed I don't
> > really have to worry about the print driver knowing enough
> > if I'm letting the printer manage the "color"-- it gets the basic
> > paper/ink info it needs from its own logic and settings, yes?
> > 
> > Incidentally, what are people seeing for a black point for ABW on
> > the 2400 (eg on Epson Premium Semigloss with PK)  and does
> > the Normal,Dark,Darker setting change this, or just
> > change the other parts of the curve? I didn't quite follow the
> > threadon this one.....
> 
> It just changes the gamma or contrast but not the two end points.  
The
> Highlight Point Shift option does shift the white point so that 
there is ink
> laid down in all parts of the image to avoid the gloss differential 
between
> ink and paper.
> 
> QTR Create ICC is a much more sensible approach:  measure and 
profile the
> stimulus-response behaviour of the printer IN ABW MODE and have PS 
use that
> profile to adjust image file data prior to it being sent to the 
printer.  I
> am sure there are people with both a 2400 and Eye-One Photo who can 
print
> the step wedges and create the profiles for various papers and ABW 
modes and
> make them available to people who don't have the equipment.  You 
only need
> to profile the default setting as it makes more sense to edit the 
look of an
> image in PS rather than in the crude Epson driver (by selecting 
Lighter,
> Darkest etc). Then anyone paying the $50 QTR shareware fee can use 
these
> profiles and improve their Epson AB&W output (without having to buy 
an
> Eye-One Photo or similar device).  I have profiles for the 4800 
which I am
> happy to share with those who have paid their QTR fee.  I do not, 
however,

> have a 2400.
> 
> Steve

I certainly interpret use of these profiles as "using QTR" - you are in
essence gaining the use of one of QTR's components even if you choose not to
use the print component.  Roy put an enormous amount of work into this
little module (just trust me on that!) and has made it part of "Quadtone
RIP".  Anyone using the module or profiles made from the module should pay
the $50.  But it is money well spent.

> From: wwodets <odets@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:08:27 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] QTR Profiles:  was Problems printing with R2400
> 
> 
> Linda-
> 
> Like Steve I am finding the profiles from QTR Create ICC wonderful on
> the 2400.  They are used as follows:  Let PS Determine Colors, the
> profile as the printing space, ABW neutral (which is
> automatically "darker") with the proper paper selected (the one you
> are actually using or a third party equivalent).  I also use the
> profile in Soft Proof, which simulates the paper white and helps
> visualize the print.  I am still a little unclear about how the black
> point is handled in the profile but I select BPC in PS.  Perhaps
> Steve can clear this up.  Regardless I have an extremely good screen
> to print match with the monitor calibrated to 65K, gamma 2.2 and
> luminosity at 40 cd/m2.  Both the monitor calibration and printer
> profiles are done with the i1 spectrometer.  I have done printer
> profiles with both the 21 and 51 step wedges and see no difference
> between them by eye.  Perhaps Steve has an opinion on this as well.
> 
> I am happy to share them, but have them only for EEM and VFA (both of
> course MK) and the standard Epson inks.  Each paper (Epson or third
> party) should have its own profile although the EEM and VFA are quite
> close.
> 
> On the QTR share fee, someone using these profiles would not actually
> be using QTR (but a product of QTR), but it seems like a good idea to
> support Roy for this wonderful contribution.  You'll save more than
> $50 on ink and paper your first day because of the accuracy.
> 
> Walt

I agree 100%.  In fact, I believe Roy could generate plenty of shareware
fees by pulling it out of the QTR distribution and promoting it as a general
purpose tool for BW printing.

Even though he offers free lifetime upgrades, Mike Chaney has plenty of
people kick in extra money after major upgrades to Qimage.  Roy’s create-ICC
profile tool seems like a good reason to make an additional contribution.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of wwodets
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 11:08 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] QTR Profiles: was Problems printing with R2400


Linda-

<snip>
On the QTR share fee, someone using these (shared) profiles would not
actually
be using QTR (but a product of QTR), but it seems like a good idea to
support Roy for this wonderful contribution.  You'll save more than
$50 on ink and paper your first day because of the accuracy.

Walt




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve, I was using QTR (paid for) on my 2200, simply using the canned profiles with mK. 
Now I have a 4800 and have been using the Epson full ink set with  pK on Epson Premium 
Semi Matte. My intent was to  purchase QTR again for the 4800 when I revert to printing 
with pK. So I have three questions:

1) Do you have QTR profiles for both mK and pK for use with ABW on the 4800?

2) Do you recommend these profiles when printing via ABW regardless of which ink is 
being used?

3) Assuming your answer is "yes", and I buy QTR ICC, how can I arrange to acquire the 
profiles you've developed?

I'm quite pleased with the ABW results so far but any improvements are welcome. Thanks 
for the kind offer.

Richard Goldman

QTR driver output:

I did "QTR Curves" (curves which drive the Quadtone RIP) for 4 matte papers:
EAM/EEM, HPR, Permajet Alpha and Permajet Omega.  For each paper I did Cool,
Warm, Sepia and Coolse curves.  I run MIS Eboni in place of Epson MK in my
4800.  All the other inks are the Epson K3 ultrachromes.  So this is a
slightly different setup from standard.  I have sent these to Roy and I
believe he was going to include them in the QTR download.  I also sent him
the MeasureTool output files from reading step wedges from these which could
be fed into QTR Create ICC to create greyscale ICC output profiles.  I am
not sure what is currently included in the download.  However, because my MK
ink is not the standard Epson ink (Eboni has much better dMax on thicker
fine art papers) the ICC profiles are likely not that good for people
staying with the Epson MK (but the curves are likely a good starting point
for making QTR curves with Epson MK).

I have not yet done any QTR Curves for photo papers.

Epson AB&W output:

I have not done any QTR Create ICC profiles for AB&W output for matte papers
as yet and any I do do will be based on MIS Eboni in the K slot.  I will be
making such profiles when I next load Eboni for use with matte paper and
will make them available if Roy is okay with it.

I have done QTR Create ICC profiles for Epson AB&W output using the Epson K3
inks with the default Darker setting and Neutral, Warm, Cool and Sepia for
just two papers so far:  EPSG and Ilford Smooth Pearl.  (I just use the new
Epson K3 PK ink.)  I have to redo the ISP Sepia profile because for some
dumb reason I have lost it, deleted it or forgot to do it in the first
place.  Once I have done that and cleared things with Roy I'll make them
available.  



> From: rgoldman2 <rgoldman@...>

> 
>  Steve, I was using QTR (paid for) on my 2200, simply using the canned
> profiles with mK.
> Now I have a 4800 and have been using the Epson full ink set with  pK on Epson
> Premium 
> Semi Matte. My intent was to  purchase QTR again for the 4800 when I revert to
> printing 
> with pK. So I have three questions:
> 
> 1) Do you have QTR profiles for both mK and pK for use with ABW on the 4800?

See above
> 
> 2) Do you recommend these profiles when printing via ABW regardless of which
> ink is 
> being used?

There will be a different profile for each paper, hue setting and the
relevant ink.


Cheers

Steve

I have been brushing up on some recent posts about QTR create ICC, and came across the 
following:

On Sept 14th.  Steve Kale wrote:

"The output is just fantastic. Linear L* output has all the problems we have debated under 
the QTR banner for the last couple of years (ie gamma shift)."

Could someone elaborate on this statement about problems with linear L*?  Being new to 
this world, I'd like to learn from history rather than repeat it.

Thanks.

Best.

Josh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:

>
> Hi Bob
> 
> Apparently not.  My understanding is it doesn't use the ICC profile.  See
> here for example:
> 
> http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/16/epson-r2400-and-ultrachrome-k3-ink-repor
> t/
> 
> They have simply made the printer (within tolerances) linear L* from white
> point to black point at least for the Darker setting.  I assume the
> adjustment sliders/settings introduce changes to linearity/gamma and black
> and white points but I do not play with these.  I prefer to get it right on
> screen and don't do any adjustment in the driver controls.  At any rate
> though I use Roy's QTR create ICC profile to profile the luminance of the
> AB&W and use PS to convert to this profile on the fly before sending the
> (adjusted) file values to the printer.  The output is just fantastic.
> Linear L* output has all the problems we have debated under the QTR banner
> for the last couple of years (ie gamma shift).
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> > From: Bob Frost <bob@f...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:37:04 +0100
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Problems printing with R2400
> > 
> > Steve,
> > 
> > Surely the correct setting in CS2 for printing with AB&W in the Epson 2400
> > is to choose 'Let printer determine colors' in CS2. That means CS2 does not
> > do any color conversions, but does send the working-space profile with the
> > image for the printer to sort out in its AB&W routines.
> > 
> > Bob Frost.
> >
>

Josh - big subject.  It has been churned a reasonable amount under the
(heavy) thread ICC v. Transfer Function in Epson Driver.  Here's a quote
from my last post:

The "linearised L* output has good L* separation but is
flat and lifeless and we can readily see why from a quick sketch - the gamma
or contrast of the output is significantly less than "ideal".  If we are
going to restore this contrast into something visually appealing then
something's got to give so think either a handmade contrast s-curve or a
luminance-calculated ICC profile.  We readily recognise that the former
compresses luminance change at either end in order to restore contrast
through the important mid-tones."

> From: joshhackney <joshhackney@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:06:07 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Problems printing with R2400
> 
> 
> I have been brushing up on some recent posts about QTR create ICC, and came
> across the 
> following:
> 
> On Sept 14th.  Steve Kale wrote:
> 
> "The output is just fantastic. Linear L* output has all the problems we have
> debated under 
> the QTR banner for the last couple of years (ie gamma shift)."
> 
> Could someone elaborate on this statement about problems with linear L*?
> Being new to 
> this world, I'd like to learn from history rather than repeat it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Best.
> 
> Josh