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Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-11-26 by garethjolly

Sorry for bombarding everyone with questions - I'm trying to get
myself on top of everything and whenever I work out something, it
seems a whole new set of complexities arise.

Is it possible to use Epson's Advanced B&W Printing with a custom ICC
Profile (e.g an Ilford Gallerie ICC downloaded from the net)? 

If it's not, how does everyone do B&W printing with non Epson papers?
 Do you use photoshop (with photoshop determining the colours) (in
which case I seem to be getting a slight colour cast)?  Or do you use
an RIP, like Quadtone?  

And do you use colour ink (adjusting to remove the colour cast) or
just grayscale?

And can anyone tell me how to get a custom B&W ICC profile?

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Regards
Gareth

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-11-26 by Steve Kale

Gareth

Check out QTR's "Create ICC" module for use with Epson Adv B&W.  (Don't use
a colour ICC profile.) Use PS to do the conversion on the fly and then use
the Adv B&W driver like normal.

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: garethjolly <garethjolly@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:30:29 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles
> 
> Sorry for bombarding everyone with questions - I'm trying to get
> myself on top of everything and whenever I work out something, it
> seems a whole new set of complexities arise.
> 
> Is it possible to use Epson's Advanced B&W Printing with a custom ICC
> Profile (e.g an Ilford Gallerie ICC downloaded from the net)?
> 
> If it's not, how does everyone do B&W printing with non Epson papers?
>  Do you use photoshop (with photoshop determining the colours) (in
> which case I seem to be getting a slight colour cast)?  Or do you use
> an RIP, like Quadtone?
> 
> And do you use colour ink (adjusting to remove the colour cast) or
> just grayscale?
> 
> And can anyone tell me how to get a custom B&W ICC profile?
> 
> Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Regards
> Gareth

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-11-26 by scott_now_coming

Are the profiles made with the QTR "Create ICC" module only used for 
printing QTR?

Or, can they be used in ohter printing programs, such as QImage?


Thanks,
Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> Gareth
> 
> Check out QTR's "Create ICC" module for use with Epson Adv B&W.  
(Don't use
> a colour ICC profile.) Use PS to do the conversion on the fly and 
then use
> the Adv B&W driver like normal.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> > From: garethjolly <garethjolly@y...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:30:29 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles
> > 
> > Sorry for bombarding everyone with questions - I'm trying to get
> > myself on top of everything and whenever I work out something, it
> > seems a whole new set of complexities arise.
> > 
> > Is it possible to use Epson's Advanced B&W Printing with a custom 
ICC
> > Profile (e.g an Ilford Gallerie ICC downloaded from the net)?
> > 
> > If it's not, how does everyone do B&W printing with non Epson 
papers?
> >  Do you use photoshop (with photoshop determining the colours) (in
> > which case I seem to be getting a slight colour cast)?  Or do you 
use
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > an RIP, like Quadtone?
> > 
> > And do you use colour ink (adjusting to remove the colour cast) or
> > just grayscale?
> > 
> > And can anyone tell me how to get a custom B&W ICC profile?
> > 
> > Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Gareth
>

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-11-26 by Steve Kale

No.  Any non-colour-ICC profile workflow.  I use them for Adv B&W and QTR.
Not sure about how Qimage works as I use a Mac...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>


> Are the profiles made with the QTR "Create ICC" module only used for
> printing QTR?
> 
> Or, can they be used in ohter printing programs, such as QImage?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Scott
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> 
>> Gareth
>> 
>> Check out QTR's "Create ICC" module for use with Epson Adv B&W.
> (Don't use
>> a colour ICC profile.) Use PS to do the conversion on the fly and
> then use
>> the Adv B&W driver like normal.
>> 
>> Steve

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-11-26 by Tom Husband

Qimage will convert a grayscale to RGB when using the print to file feature so I guess that means the Create ICC profile can't be used?  It would nice if the profile could be used as I like how Qimage interpolates and sharpens.

Tom
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Kale 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 6:52 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles


  No.  Any non-colour-ICC profile workflow.  I use them for Adv B&W and QTR.
  Not sure about how Qimage works as I use a Mac...


  > From: scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>


  > Are the profiles made with the QTR "Create ICC" module only used for
  > printing QTR?
  > 
  > Or, can they be used in ohter printing programs, such as QImage?
  > 
  > 
  > Thanks,
  > Scott


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-11-26 by scott_now_coming

Anytime I've used an ICC profile in QImage and printed with ABW on 
the 4800 with a grayscale file, the prints were always WAY off.

Turning off the profile in QImage produced excellent results.

It would be nice though, if those QTR profiles could be used in QI.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> No.  Any non-colour-ICC profile workflow.  I use them for Adv B&W 
and QTR.
> Not sure about how Qimage works as I use a Mac...
> 
> 
> > From: scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@y...>
> 
> 
> > Are the profiles made with the QTR "Create ICC" module only used 
for
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > printing QTR?
> > 
> > Or, can they be used in ohter printing programs, such as QImage?
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Scott
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> > <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Gareth
> >> 
> >> Check out QTR's "Create ICC" module for use with Epson Adv B&W.
> > (Don't use
> >> a colour ICC profile.) Use PS to do the conversion on the fly and
> > then use
> >> the Adv B&W driver like normal.
> >> 
> >> Steve
>

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-11-26 by Douglas meeuwsen

just a question...
why do you want to use ilford paper? it is not archival, and it is  
not cheaper that epson papers here is san diego.
Epson makes great papers, and with those papers, you will hardly need  
to do any pest printing. That saves a LOT of ink and paper.
The premium line of papers is bullet-proof with ABW. Also, the  
kirkland professional glossy from costco is a great paper and you  
dont need a special profile for ABW. it is only about $.15 per sheet.  
Plus epson makes some great matte papers like velvet fine art, and  
ultra-smooth that work great in ABW without messing around. All of  
those papers are far more permanent than ilford, and they all give  
great results with ABW. If you are just getting started, or just want  
to make great prints as opposed to doing lots of experimentation etc,  
simply stick to epson papers. There really is no advantage to other  
brands with ABW, in terms of cost and image quality. Especially in  
"photo" (non-matte) surface papers. Have fun......printing is a great  
hobby, and with ABW, for me it's been totally frustration free. Doug M
On Nov 26, 2005, at 12:30 AM, garethjolly wrote:

> Sorry for bombarding everyone with questions - I'm trying to get
> myself on top of everything and whenever I work out something, it
> seems a whole new set of complexities arise.
>
> Is it possible to use Epson's Advanced B&W Printing with a custom ICC
> Profile (e.g an Ilford Gallerie ICC downloaded from the net)?
>
> If it's not, how does everyone do B&W printing with non Epson papers?
> Do you use photoshop (with photoshop determining the colours) (in
> which case I seem to be getting a slight colour cast)?  Or do you use
> an RIP, like Quadtone?
>
> And do you use colour ink (adjusting to remove the colour cast) or
> just grayscale?
>
> And can anyone tell me how to get a custom B&W ICC profile?
>
> Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
>
> Regards
> Gareth
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines�  
> in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL  
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
> SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Digital wedding photography	Learn digital photography	Digital  
> photography college
> Digital photography	Digital photography web site	Digital  
> photography course
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>  Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
>
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-11-26 by garethjolly

It's a fair question.

I'm trying to find a favourite paper at the moment and have a box of
Ilford to use up. 

You might have seen from my other post that I'm trying to find a
source for VFA in Sydney (believe it or not, I don't think you can get
it here!) I have tracked down a source for Hahnemuehle Photo Rag.
(http://www.imagescience.com.au)

So my question was actually more so I could understand the theory -
ultimately, I suspect I'll be printing on the Hahnemuehle unless Epson
gets its act together out here! 

While I'm relatively new to digital printing, I'm an advanced darkroom
printer - so want to get my digital prints to reasonably high standard
quickly.

I also had a follow up question.  Do you have to have one of the
Gretag Macbeth measuring tools to use QTR Create ICC?  

Thanks
Gareth 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Douglas meeuwsen
<lipshurt@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> just a question...
> why do you want to use ilford paper? it is not archival, and it is  
> not cheaper that epson papers here is san diego.
> Epson makes great papers, and with those papers, you will hardly need  
> to do any pest printing. That saves a LOT of ink and paper.
> The premium line of papers is bullet-proof with ABW. Also, the  
> kirkland professional glossy from costco is a great paper and you  
> dont need a special profile for ABW. it is only about $.15 per sheet.  
> Plus epson makes some great matte papers like velvet fine art, and  
> ultra-smooth that work great in ABW without messing around. All of  
> those papers are far more permanent than ilford, and they all give  
> great results with ABW. If you are just getting started, or just want  
> to make great prints as opposed to doing lots of experimentation etc,  
> simply stick to epson papers. There really is no advantage to other  
> brands with ABW, in terms of cost and image quality. Especially in  
> "photo" (non-matte) surface papers. Have fun......printing is a great  
> hobby, and with ABW, for me it's been totally frustration free. Doug M
> On Nov 26, 2005, at 12:30 AM, garethjolly wrote:
> 
> > Sorry for bombarding everyone with questions - I'm trying to get
> > myself on top of everything and whenever I work out something, it
> > seems a whole new set of complexities arise.
> >
> > Is it possible to use Epson's Advanced B&W Printing with a custom ICC
> > Profile (e.g an Ilford Gallerie ICC downloaded from the net)?
> >
> > If it's not, how does everyone do B&W printing with non Epson papers?
> > Do you use photoshop (with photoshop determining the colours) (in
> > which case I seem to be getting a slight colour cast)?  Or do you use
> > an RIP, like Quadtone?
> >
> > And do you use colour ink (adjusting to remove the colour cast) or
> > just grayscale?
> >
> > And can anyone tell me how to get a custom B&W ICC profile?
> >
> > Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Regards
> > Gareth
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> > wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> > visiting this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> > to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> > from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> > and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> > group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines"  
> > in the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> > NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL  
> > BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
> > SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
> > THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
> > OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Digital wedding photography	Learn digital photography	Digital  
> > photography college
> > Digital photography	Digital photography web site	Digital  
> > photography course
> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >  Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
> >
> >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-11-27 by Bob Frost

Gareth,

Did you see my last post to you? Your Epson online shop in Australia sells 
Velvet Fine Art paper, at least in suitable sizes for an R2400. Didn't look 
at any other printers.

Bob Frost.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "garethjolly" <garethjolly@...>

You might have seen from my other post that I'm trying to find a
source for VFA in Sydney (believe it or not, I don't think you can get
it here!) I have tracked down a source for Hahnemuehle Photo Rag.
(http://www.imagescience.com.au)

So my question was actually more so I could understand the theory -
ultimately, I suspect I'll be printing on the Hahnemuehle unless Epson
gets its act together out here!

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-11-28 by garethjolly

Thanks, Bob and Jeffrey.

I've doublechecked the Epson Aus website - it doesn't list the VFA
when you search paper by by printer for the R2400.

Strangely, though, it has VFA in the Large format / pro graphics
section - but then only in A3+. And it lists the R2400 as one of the
printers for it.

It doesn't seem to be in any other sizes.

And Vanbar has no listing for it...

Think I might email Epson...

Regards
Gareth


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
<bob@f...> wrote:
>
> Gareth,
> 
> Did you see my last post to you? Your Epson online shop in Australia
sells 
> Velvet Fine Art paper, at least in suitable sizes for an R2400.
Didn't look 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> at any other printers.
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "garethjolly" <garethjolly@y...>
> 
> You might have seen from my other post that I'm trying to find a
> source for VFA in Sydney (believe it or not, I don't think you can get
> it here!) I have tracked down a source for Hahnemuehle Photo Rag.
> (http://www.imagescience.com.au)
> 
> So my question was actually more so I could understand the theory -
> ultimately, I suspect I'll be printing on the Hahnemuehle unless Epson
> gets its act together out here!
>

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-12-28 by Jon Witsell

Steve,

Can this be done with a densitometer, or do you need a spectro? Care to outline the steps 
necessary? QTR is not totally making sense to me yet...

Thanks,

Jon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Gareth
> 
> Check out QTR's "Create ICC" module for use with Epson Adv B&W.  (Don't use
> a colour ICC profile.) Use PS to do the conversion on the fly and then use
> the Adv B&W driver like normal.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> > From: garethjolly <garethjolly@y...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:30:29 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles
> > 
> > Sorry for bombarding everyone with questions - I'm trying to get
> > myself on top of everything and whenever I work out something, it
> > seems a whole new set of complexities arise.
> > 
> > Is it possible to use Epson's Advanced B&W Printing with a custom ICC
> > Profile (e.g an Ilford Gallerie ICC downloaded from the net)?
> > 
> > If it's not, how does everyone do B&W printing with non Epson papers?
> >  Do you use photoshop (with photoshop determining the colours) (in
> > which case I seem to be getting a slight colour cast)?  Or do you use
> > an RIP, like Quadtone?
> > 
> > And do you use colour ink (adjusting to remove the colour cast) or
> > just grayscale?
> > 
> > And can anyone tell me how to get a custom B&W ICC profile?
> > 
> > Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Gareth
>

RE: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-12-28 by Paul Roark

> 
> Can this be done with a densitometer, or do you need a spectro? Care to
> outline the steps
> necessary? QTR is not totally making sense to me yet...

This might be helpful: http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Making_B-W_ICCs.htm

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-12-28 by garethjolly

Actually, while I think about it, can anyone come up with (or know of)
 a program that will convert colour profiles to B&W?

For those of us without spectrometers, it would be great to be able to
take a 'canned' profile off the net then simply convert to a B&W profile.

Regards
Gareth

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> 
> > 
> > Can this be done with a densitometer, or do you need a spectro?
Care to
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > outline the steps
> > necessary? QTR is not totally making sense to me yet...
> 
> This might be helpful: http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Making_B-W_ICCs.htm
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-12-28 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "garethjolly" 
<garethjolly@b...> wrote:
>
> Actually, while I think about it, can anyone come up with (or know 
of)
>  a program that will convert colour profiles to B&W?
> 
> For those of us without spectrometers, it would be great to be able 
to
> take a 'canned' profile off the net then simply convert to a B&W 
profile.
> 
> Regards
> Gareth
> 

ColorshopX will do something like that, but it doesn't work the way 
you are thinking. It just "optimizes" the neutral tendencies for the 
perceptual rendering intent. It is still an RGB profile in everyway.

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-12-29 by Steve Kale

This would not make any sense as the workflow/driver component for B&W is
different than colour.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: garethjolly <garethjolly@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 09:11:51 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles
> 
> Actually, while I think about it, can anyone come up with (or know of)
>  a program that will convert colour profiles to B&W?
> 
> For those of us without spectrometers, it would be great to be able to
> take a 'canned' profile off the net then simply convert to a B&W profile.
> 
> Regards
> Gareth
>

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-12-29 by garethjolly

Can you talk me through that?

Logically, a colour profile must include white, shades of grey and
black? Or am I missing something?  I suppose I must be, because
otherwise you wouldn't bother with black and white profiles.  Perhaps
the issue is the translation from grayscale using a colour profile
could introduce a slight colour shift?  In which case, couldn't a
conversion program from colour to B&W ICC remove this?

How does a profile actually work?  I suppose I assume that a colour
profile is essentially a set of curves in RGB whereas a B&W profile is
a grayscale curve.  Is that right?

Regards
Gareth

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> This would not make any sense as the workflow/driver component for
B&W is
> different than colour.
> 
> 
> > From: garethjolly <garethjolly@b...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 09:11:51 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles
> > 
> > Actually, while I think about it, can anyone come up with (or know of)
> >  a program that will convert colour profiles to B&W?
> > 
> > For those of us without spectrometers, it would be great to be able to
> > take a 'canned' profile off the net then simply convert to a B&W
profile.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > 
> > Regards
> > Gareth
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-12-30 by Steve Kale

> From: garethjolly <garethjolly@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:55:43 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles
> 
> Can you talk me through that?
> 
> Logically, a colour profile must include white,

Yes

>shades of grey 

Not really.  Yes there is a greyscale axis in the 3D LUTs but this is not
necessarily generated with stimulus-response observations of greyscale
patches.  Greyscale points are just the points in the 3D LUT where R=G=B.
Have a look at the 4096 patch test target on Bill Atkinson's site.

>and
> black? 

Yes

>Or am I missing something?  I suppose I must be, because
> otherwise you wouldn't bother with black and white profiles.

The B&W profiles we are talking about do not attempt to manage hue, only
luminance.  So a greyscale image can be printed sepia with these greyscale
ICC profiles.  Hue management is left to the user and normally selected via
QTR/IJC tone "curves" or the Epson Adv B&W picker.  A colour profile does
manage hue and so will try to bend the printer so that the image comes out
"neutral".

 
>Perhaps
> the issue is the translation from grayscale using a colour profile
> could introduce a slight colour shift?  In which case, couldn't a
> conversion program from colour to B&W ICC remove this?

Even if you could strip out the greyscale axis you have no control over how
this greyscale is made up.  When you print greyscale with a colour profile
it looks up the greyscale axis in the profile (this axis is not separate
from any of the other colours in the LUT) and prints accordingly.  But as
each point on the greyscale is just one point in an overall 3D colour space
what we typically find is that we get metamerism.  We would rather control
more tightly the inks used in greyscale generation.
> 
> How does a profile actually work?  I suppose I assume that a colour
> profile is essentially a set of curves in RGB whereas a B&W profile is
> a grayscale curve.  Is that right?

Depends.  Most colour profiles use lookup tables rather than curves.  So you
have a 3D array rather than 3 curves.  I recommend taking a look at Bruce
Fraser's Real World Colour Management.

The other thing to remember is that often the greyscale printing driver is
completely different from the colour driver.  When we select Adv B&W or
Black Only we are no longer using the colour driver.  As a result, the
stimulus-response behaviour used to make the colour profile is not at all
valid.

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-12-30 by garethjolly

Thank you very much for a very comprehensive response.  Some of it's a
little beyond me at the moment - I really must buy Real World Colour
Management.  I'll add it to the growing list!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> > From: garethjolly <garethjolly@b...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:55:43 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles
> > 
> > Can you talk me through that?
> > 
> > Logically, a colour profile must include white,
> 
> Yes
> 
> >shades of grey 
> 
> Not really.  Yes there is a greyscale axis in the 3D LUTs but this
is not
> necessarily generated with stimulus-response observations of greyscale
> patches.  Greyscale points are just the points in the 3D LUT where
R=G=B.
> Have a look at the 4096 patch test target on Bill Atkinson's site.
> 
> >and
> > black? 
> 
> Yes
> 
> >Or am I missing something?  I suppose I must be, because
> > otherwise you wouldn't bother with black and white profiles.
> 
> The B&W profiles we are talking about do not attempt to manage hue, only
> luminance.  So a greyscale image can be printed sepia with these
greyscale
> ICC profiles.  Hue management is left to the user and normally
selected via
> QTR/IJC tone "curves" or the Epson Adv B&W picker.  A colour profile
does
> manage hue and so will try to bend the printer so that the image
comes out
> "neutral".
> 
>  
> >Perhaps
> > the issue is the translation from grayscale using a colour profile
> > could introduce a slight colour shift?  In which case, couldn't a
> > conversion program from colour to B&W ICC remove this?
> 
> Even if you could strip out the greyscale axis you have no control
over how
> this greyscale is made up.  When you print greyscale with a colour
profile
> it looks up the greyscale axis in the profile (this axis is not separate
> from any of the other colours in the LUT) and prints accordingly. 
But as
> each point on the greyscale is just one point in an overall 3D
colour space
> what we typically find is that we get metamerism.  We would rather
control
> more tightly the inks used in greyscale generation.
> > 
> > How does a profile actually work?  I suppose I assume that a colour
> > profile is essentially a set of curves in RGB whereas a B&W profile is
> > a grayscale curve.  Is that right?
> 
> Depends.  Most colour profiles use lookup tables rather than curves.
 So you
> have a 3D array rather than 3 curves.  I recommend taking a look at
Bruce
> Fraser's Real World Colour Management.
> 
> The other thing to remember is that often the greyscale printing
driver is
> completely different from the colour driver.  When we select Adv B&W or
> Black Only we are no longer using the colour driver.  As a result, the
> stimulus-response behaviour used to make the colour profile is not
at all
> valid.
>

Re: [Digital BW] Advanced B&W printing and ICC profiles

2005-12-31 by Ernst Dinkla

garethjolly wrote:
> Actually, while I think about it, can anyone come up with (or know of)
>  a program that will convert colour profiles to B&W?
> 
> For those of us without spectrometers, it would be great to be able to
> take a 'canned' profile off the net then simply convert to a B&W profile.
> 
> Regards
> Gareth

Been thinking and asking about that for years and it usually
ends with an ICC profile that has been edited by taking out
all saturation. Dr. Pro can do that for you too. It might be
useful for the K3 range of printers (I don't know) but it was
of no use for the printers before it. It isn't doing a better
job than a custom ICC color profile that gives good neutrals.



                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
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