Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Beginner justification

Beginner justification

2005-11-29 by brianechapman

I'm trying to describe to someone (in an effort to justify the
purchase of something) the quality difference between a print made on
say an R200 printer (black only or not) and a print I could buy online
at a standard online printing service - like ofoto or mpix or
something.  Since I've never seen a direct comparison (and I don't
have one to use for show and tell) my efforts so far have been less
than successful.  

Can anyone quantify the differences in words?  (I realize this may be
hard to do)

Thanks, Brian

Re: Beginner justification

2005-11-29 by brianechapman

I should add that I'm only currently interested in printing 8x10 or
less so I'm not looking at larger formats and that I would definately
be purchasing the MIS ultratone inks, either for black only or all six
cartridges.  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "brianechapman"
<brianechapman@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I'm trying to describe to someone (in an effort to justify the
> purchase of something) the quality difference between a print made on
> say an R200 printer (black only or not) and a print I could buy online
> at a standard online printing service - like ofoto or mpix or
> something.  Since I've never seen a direct comparison (and I don't
> have one to use for show and tell) my efforts so far have been less
> than successful.  
> 
> Can anyone quantify the differences in words?  (I realize this may be
> hard to do)
> 
> Thanks, Brian
>

RE: [Digital BW] Beginner justification

2005-11-29 by John Moody

Tell her that inkjet prints on _good_ printers sell for thousands of
dollars.... :-)
The difference huge, if you know what to look for, but still obvious if you
don’t.  Also ofoto prints will fade, if that matters to you.

I’m not sure where you live, but call the local galleries and ask if they
have any inkjet prints.  I recently took a trip to Santa Fe and saw lots of
great work.  Ironic, because I live an hours train ride from NYC.

Your best bet is to buy something inexpensive, like the R220 and get
started.  Follow this list for several months to get grounded in the basics
(and not so basics) and see where it leads.  If you find it’s not for you,
you still have a useful office printer.  Read everything on Paul Roark’s
website for starters, and come back with questions.  Clayton Jones has a
very good site as well, not to be missed.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
brianechapman
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:53 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Beginner justification

I'm trying to describe to someone (in an effort to justify the
purchase of something) the quality difference between a print made on
say an R200 printer (black only or not) and a print I could buy online
at a standard online printing service - like ofoto or mpix or
something.  Since I've never seen a direct comparison (and I don't
have one to use for show and tell) my efforts so far have been less
than successful.

Can anyone quantify the differences in words?  (I realize this may be
hard to do)

Thanks, Brian





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Beginner justification

2005-11-29 by brianechapman

Thanks John!  I will relay your message ;)  

Good idea about the galleries.  I may also go to some of the photo
stores to see if they have something.  I'm in Seattle, by the way.

Clayton's site was what caught my attention in the first place - the
black only option seemed like it would be a good place to start.  I'll
check out Paul's site also.

Thanks, Brian

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody"
<moodymz3@y...> wrote:
>
> Tell her that inkjet prints on _good_ printers sell for thousands of
> dollars.... :-)
> The difference huge, if you know what to look for, but still obvious
if you
> don't.  Also ofoto prints will fade, if that matters to you.
> 
> I'm not sure where you live, but call the local galleries and ask if
they
> have any inkjet prints.  I recently took a trip to Santa Fe and saw
lots of
> great work.  Ironic, because I live an hours train ride from NYC.
> 
> Your best bet is to buy something inexpensive, like the R220 and get
> started.  Follow this list for several months to get grounded in the
basics
> (and not so basics) and see where it leads.  If you find it's not
for you,
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> you still have a useful office printer.  Read everything on Paul Roark's
> website for starters, and come back with questions.  Clayton Jones has a
> very good site as well, not to be missed.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
> brianechapman
> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:53 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Beginner justification
> 
> I'm trying to describe to someone (in an effort to justify the
> purchase of something) the quality difference between a print made on
> say an R200 printer (black only or not) and a print I could buy online
> at a standard online printing service - like ofoto or mpix or
> something.  Since I've never seen a direct comparison (and I don't
> have one to use for show and tell) my efforts so far have been less
> than successful.
> 
> Can anyone quantify the differences in words?  (I realize this may be
> hard to do)
> 
> Thanks, Brian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Beginner justification

2005-11-29 by scott_now_coming

I was "sold" on inkjet prints for serious work when I went to a local 
gallery to see some prints by a anture photographer that printed the 
images on an Epson 9600.

His 40x60" prints were AWESOME! The images were made from  files 
scanned  from 6x7cm chromes.

In my opinion, the new UC K3 have even better "color" than previous 
Epson inks (including the R800-1800 printers, which in my opinion, 
was great, at the time.)

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "brianechapman" 
<brianechapman@y...> wrote:
>
> Thanks John!  I will relay your message ;)  
> 
> Good idea about the galleries.  I may also go to some of the photo
> stores to see if they have something.  I'm in Seattle, by the way.
> 
> Clayton's site was what caught my attention in the first place - the
> black only option seemed like it would be a good place to start.  
I'll
> check out Paul's site also.
> 
> Thanks, Brian
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody"
> <moodymz3@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Tell her that inkjet prints on _good_ printers sell for thousands 
of
> > dollars.... :-)
> > The difference huge, if you know what to look for, but still 
obvious
> if you
> > don't.  Also ofoto prints will fade, if that matters to you.
> > 
> > I'm not sure where you live, but call the local galleries and ask 
if
> they
> > have any inkjet prints.  I recently took a trip to Santa Fe and 
saw
> lots of
> > great work.  Ironic, because I live an hours train ride from NYC.
> > 
> > Your best bet is to buy something inexpensive, like the R220 and 
get
> > started.  Follow this list for several months to get grounded in 
the
> basics
> > (and not so basics) and see where it leads.  If you find it's not
> for you,
> > you still have a useful office printer.  Read everything on Paul 
Roark's
> > website for starters, and come back with questions.  Clayton 
Jones has a
> > very good site as well, not to be missed.
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > John Moody
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
> > brianechapman
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:53 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Beginner justification
> > 
> > I'm trying to describe to someone (in an effort to justify the
> > purchase of something) the quality difference between a print 
made on
> > say an R200 printer (black only or not) and a print I could buy 
online
> > at a standard online printing service - like ofoto or mpix or
> > something.  Since I've never seen a direct comparison (and I don't
> > have one to use for show and tell) my efforts so far have been 
less
> > than successful.
> > 
> > Can anyone quantify the differences in words?  (I realize this 
may be
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > hard to do)
> > 
> > Thanks, Brian
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Re: Beginner justification

2005-11-30 by Bob Michaels

There is no economic justification to anything related to photography
for 99% of us. It's simply a matter of "want" not "need". Some of us
want to print in addition to want to take photographs. 

If there is any "need" involved, it relates to personal happiness and
self-fulfilment. That is something one just cannot relate to economics. 

Bob Michaels
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I'm trying to describe to someone (in an effort to justify the
> purchase of something) the quality difference between a print made on
> say an R200 printer (black only or not) and a print I could buy online

Re: Beginner justification

2005-11-30 by brianechapman

I suppose I should have said, "in an effort to justify my desire to
have..."  Want and need are certainly terms related to
economics...excluding illegal methods, all wants and needs have to be
balanced within ones "means" and desires for personal happiness.

Another quest ion though - if I were going to try black only printing
with the R200, am I correct in assuming that I would only need to
purchase the Photo Black or Eboni Black? 

Also, approximately how many 8x10 prints can be made with a single
cartridge?  

Thanks!!  Brian

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Michaels"
<bob@b...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> There is no economic justification to anything related to photography
> for 99% of us. It's simply a matter of "want" not "need". Some of us
> want to print in addition to want to take photographs. 
> 
> If there is any "need" involved, it relates to personal happiness and
> self-fulfilment. That is something one just cannot relate to economics. 
> 
> Bob Michaels
> >
> > I'm trying to describe to someone (in an effort to justify the
> > purchase of something) the quality difference between a print made on
> > say an R200 printer (black only or not) and a print I could buy online
>

Re: Beginner justification

2005-12-02 by hill14701

Brian, 

I have been printing with various printers and inks since about 2000.  I've used them 
all and have had prints in a number of shows including black only, mpix, piezography 
(original), and UT2, etc.  I've never had a preference for any process, as each print was 
nicely matched to its printing style. But the differences are minimal when framed 
under glass or plexiglass.

Before the R2400 was released I had thrown out or sold all of my Epson gear.  It was a 
continual struggle with the various 3rd party inks.  Some days I'd print without issue, 
other days my heads would be so severely clogged I'd have to wait for a day or two to 
print.  The final straw was MIS releasing the EZ fill carts for the 1280 that I could never 
get to work right.  I installed OEM epson inks and forgot about quadtone for a while.

For black and white work, I began using either MPIX or a Fuji Frontier.  The true black 
and white from MPIX is not as sharp as the color prints, but when using the color 
paper and no color adjustment setting results in stunning neutral  b&w images.

When the R2400 was released I eventually picked one up, as I was not interested in 
using 3rd party inks.  As I generally make 4x6 or smaller prints, the ink lasts quite a 
long time.  Referencing my prints from the past 5 years, the R2400 is capable of 
quality equalling or exceeding that of any quadtone process, and the color is 
exceptional as well.  However, I still use the frontier for color and some black and 
white printing (.19/print).  What is nice about the Frontier or MPIX is that you have a 
100K+ printer at your disposal that is calibrated daily, and you pay no upkeep or ink 
costs.  You have only one or two surfaces to print with, but the quality is excellent.

To make a long story longer, the differences are minimal between a good desktop 
system and the Fuji Frontier / MPIX prints.  Both are capable of excellent prints, but 
the price per print is much easier on the wallet by using the Frontier; and if you are 
printing a large number of prints, you can have them in an hour instead of a day or 
two of printing.

One thing you may notice is that list members are quick to spend others money to 
purchase the best stystems for no other reason than "it is the best".  However their 
advice is just that, as "best" is relative.  My frontier prints hang next to my R2400 
prints and both look stunning (and viewers are none the wiser).  That being said, as 
the frontier is a continuous tone printer, the output will look much better than an 
R200 setup.  If you want to explore quadtone printing a r200 is a great place to start 
with MIS inks.  I just grew tired of fiddling with 3rd party inks, CIS, and refilling with 
no quality advantage over the Frontier.  My 2 cents, your money.

Best of luck,
Don

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "brianechapman" 
<brianechapman@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I'm trying to describe to someone (in an effort to justify the
> purchase of something) the quality difference between a print made on
> say an R200 printer (black only or not) and a print I could buy online
> at a standard online printing service - like ofoto or mpix or
> something.  Since I've never seen a direct comparison (and I don't
> have one to use for show and tell) my efforts so far have been less
> than successful.  
> 
> Can anyone quantify the differences in words?  (I realize this may be
> hard to do)
> 
> Thanks, Brian
>

Re: Beginner justification

2005-12-02 by scott_now_coming

"If you want to explore quadtone printing a r200 is a great place to
start
with MIS inks."

Go with the C86. Two less inks to deal with (although, it won't print 
B.O. without banding).

Scott


> 
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "brianechapman" 
> <brianechapman@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm trying to describe to someone (in an effort to justify the
> > purchase of something) the quality difference between a print 
made on
> > say an R200 printer (black only or not) and a print I could buy 
online
> > at a standard online printing service - like ofoto or mpix or
> > something.  Since I've never seen a direct comparison (and I don't
> > have one to use for show and tell) my efforts so far have been 
less
> > than successful.  
> > 
> > Can anyone quantify the differences in words?  (I realize this 
may be
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > hard to do)
> > 
> > Thanks, Brian
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Beginner justification

2005-12-02 by Kip Babington

Is this unique to the C86?  I got some pretty nice BO prints out of my 
C84 before switching to the EZ inks from MIS.  I think I did get banding 
with some settings, but there were others where it didn't happen.

Cheers,
Kip

scott_now_coming wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Go with the C86. Two less inks to deal with (although, it won't print 
>B.O. without banding).
>  
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Beginner justification

2005-12-02 by Paul Roark

> 
> "If you want to explore quadtone printing a r200 is a great place to
> start with MIS inks."

> Go with the C86. Two less inks to deal with (although, it won't print
> B.O. without banding).
> 

The R220 is a step up from the R200.  I've posted ICCs for the R220, but
will probably not do that for the C86 or R200.

Comparing the C86 and R220, the C86 gets a bit better glossy dmax, the R220
gets a superior matte dmax.

The C86 has fewer inks to mess with, but it's also not as smooth as the
R220.  

For BO the C86 samples seem to vary.  I think most find C86 BO is not smooth
enough.  It may be individual quality control that varies.

It's hard to lose much with either of these printers.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: Beginner justification

2005-12-02 by scott_now_coming

I've never been able to make a BO print with my C86 without banding.

I was able to make ONE print that I thought didn't show banding, 
however, on close inspection, you can see banding. 

My understanding is, the R200 series makes BO prints without banding.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington 
<cbabing3@g...> wrote:
>
> Is this unique to the C86?  I got some pretty nice BO prints out of 
my 
> C84 before switching to the EZ inks from MIS.  I think I did get 
banding 
> with some settings, but there were others where it didn't happen.
> 
> Cheers,
> Kip
> 
> scott_now_coming wrote:
> 
> >Go with the C86. Two less inks to deal with (although, it won't 
print 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >B.O. without banding).
> >  
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Beginner justification

2005-12-02 by Adam Maas

Some C86's can do BO without banding. I own one. But the C86 is so 
variable that unless you are very lucky, good BO is impossible.

-Adam




scott_now_coming wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I've never been able to make a BO print with my C86 without banding.
> 
> I was able to make ONE print that I thought didn't show banding,
> however, on close inspection, you can see banding.
> 
> My understanding is, the R200 series makes BO prints without banding.
> 
> Scott
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington
> <cbabing3@g...> wrote:
>  >
>  > Is this unique to the C86?  I got some pretty nice BO prints out of
> my
>  > C84 before switching to the EZ inks from MIS.  I think I did get
> banding
>  > with some settings, but there were others where it didn't happen.
>  >
>  > Cheers,
>  > Kip
>  >
>  > scott_now_coming wrote:
>  >
>  > >Go with the C86. Two less inks to deal with (although, it won't
> print
>  > >B.O. without banding).

[Digital BW] Re: Beginner justification

2005-12-02 by brianechapman

Hmn...well, thanks for all the advice!!!  I ordered a couple prints
from printroom.com so I'll see how they turn out.  I'm still inclined
to get an R220 because I'm interested in playing around with it and
for the $$ it's probably worth it.  

Still, anyone know about how many 8x10's a set of cartridges will last
though with the R220?  

Thanks!!  Brian

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Adam Maas
<mykroft@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Some C86's can do BO without banding. I own one. But the C86 is so 
> variable that unless you are very lucky, good BO is impossible.
> 
> -Adam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scott_now_coming wrote:
> > I've never been able to make a BO print with my C86 without banding.
> > 
> > I was able to make ONE print that I thought didn't show banding,
> > however, on close inspection, you can see banding.
> > 
> > My understanding is, the R200 series makes BO prints without banding.
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington
> > <cbabing3@g...> wrote:
> >  >
> >  > Is this unique to the C86?  I got some pretty nice BO prints out of
> > my
> >  > C84 before switching to the EZ inks from MIS.  I think I did get
> > banding
> >  > with some settings, but there were others where it didn't happen.
> >  >
> >  > Cheers,
> >  > Kip
> >  >
> >  > scott_now_coming wrote:
> >  >
> >  > >Go with the C86. Two less inks to deal with (although, it won't
> > print
> >  > >B.O. without banding).
>

[Digital BW] Re: Beginner justification

2005-12-03 by mkirschner

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "brianechapman" 
<brianechapman@y...> wrote:

Brian,

> Still, anyone know about how many 8x10's a set of cartridges will 
last
> though with the R220?  
> 

I don't know the answer to that question, but one thing to consider is 
purchasing virgin cartridges and bulk inks from MIS. There's a small 
learning curve to refilling but doing so minimizes ink costs to the 
extent that paper becomes the most expensive component of the 
equation. If you refill, I recommend reading Paul Roark's meticulous 
writeups on the subject. They're informative in general and also lets 
you know what parts you need.

Paul Roark links here for C86 and R220, in case you haven't already 
seen them:

http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-EZ-UT-Readme.htm

http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

BTW I'm using the C86 and am very pleased with the results. The R200/
R220 inks weren't available yet when I got started a month or two ago, 
but if I had to do it again I might still go with the C86 (fewer 
cartridges to deal with and still stunning results).

Mitch

[Digital BW] Re: Beginner justification

2005-12-03 by Sam McCandless

At 4:45 PM +0000 12/2/05, scott_now_coming wrote:
>
>"If you want to explore quadtone printing a r200 is a great place to
>start with MIS inks." [Don Hill]
>
>Go with the C86. Two less inks to deal with (although, it won't print
>B.O. without banding).
>
>Scott

But I want to be able to print black-only (BO). And after my 1160 
recently died last month, I ordered a re-furbed R200 to do it with. I 
was thinking Eboni in MIS carts, together with color inks in the 
other carts. Which inks would be best with Eboni, given that the 
color prints needn't be as close to archival as the old B&W family 
photos I want to try in BO?

Thanks.
--
Sam

P.S. The R200 is still in the box, so I guess I could return it to 
the Epson Store if another printer - the R220? - would be better for 
BO and/or small color prints. But I've thought I would supplement the 
R200 with a 2400 for larger prints, both B&W and color. So I could 
always just do everything except BO prints on the 2400.

[Digital BW] Re: Beginner justification

2005-12-03 by scott_now_coming

I would go with MIS in the black positions and stick with the Epson 
color carts.

I love the MIS EZ inks and carts in my C86. BUT, I bought the MIS 
color inks for an R800 and could never get more than 1 or 2 4x6" to 
print before there was serious banding. A good nozzle check didn't 
last long.

It was a waste of time, money, paper, and ink. 


I may end up buying an R-220 myself just to do BO printing. A shame, 
though, they don't have a cheap 13x19 printer that prints BO.

Scott
> 
> But I want to be able to print black-only (BO). And after my 1160 
> recently died last month, I ordered a re-furbed R200 to do it with. 
I 
> was thinking Eboni in MIS carts, together with color inks in the 
> other carts. Which inks would be best with Eboni, given that the 
> color prints needn't be as close to archival as the old B&W family 
> photos I want to try in BO?
> 
> Thanks.
> --
> Sam
> 
> P.S. The R200 is still in the box, so I guess I could return it to 
> the Epson Store if another printer - the R220? - would be better 
for 
> BO and/or small color prints. But I've thought I would supplement 
the 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> R200 with a 2400 for larger prints, both B&W and color. So I could 
> always just do everything except BO prints on the 2400.
>

[Digital BW] Re: Beginner justification

2005-12-03 by mkirschner

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:

> I love the MIS EZ inks and carts in my C86. BUT, I bought the MIS 
> color inks for an R800 and could never get more than 1 or 2 4x6" to 
> print before there was serious banding. A good nozzle check didn't 
> last long.

I've had a different experience with my color-dedicated C86 using MIS 
PRO inks (or whatever the name of the ultrachrome equivalent is). I've 
printed dozens of 4x6 photos, with no clogging or banding yet. I have 
found it's generally necessary to print at the super best resolution 
(RPM or whatever it's called) and turn off high speed in order to 
avoid banding, though, especially for glossy prints (Kirkland glossy 
from Costco works great). I also take care to make sure I don't let 
the printer go a day or two without making at least one print. 

Of course, the R800 is a different animal with different inks, so my 
point is simply that at least some MIS color inksets for Epson can 
work well.

And - to stay within topic for this list - I love my B&W dedicated C86 
using MIS EZ inks.

Mitch

Re: [Digital BW] Beginner justification

2005-12-04 by Ben Rosengart

On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 05:21:27PM -0500, John Moody wrote:
> Tell her that inkjet prints on _good_ printers sell for thousands of
> dollars.... :-)
> The difference huge, if you know what to look for, but still obvious if you
> don\ufffdt.  Also ofoto prints will fade, if that matters to you.

They share that problem with all the Frontier-type print shops
(except perhaps mpix, with their "true B&W" option).  Ofoto in
particular has another problem as well.  They will punch up your
picture whether you like it or not.  It looks to me like they're
increasing contrast and/or saturation, and recovering shadow detail.

So if the O.P.'s friend does decide to send her jobs to a Frontier/C41
shop, she should avoid ofoto, unless she *wants* the print house to
second-guess her.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.