Digital BW, The Print

I have two questions:
1.  I made some proof prints today on Epson heavyweight matte, using my 
C84 with EZN inks, and I'm seeing a green color casting in daylight. This 
printer has never had color inks in it. Am I crazy, or is this possible?

2.  I read in Clayton Jones' online articles that after turning an image to 
monochrome in channel mixer, I should convert it to grayscale (image/mode) 
before doing my work and then back to RGB again before printing. It also 
suggest converting to 16-bit to do work on the image, and then back to 8-bit 
before printing. I've always worked in 8-bit RGB and never converted to 
grayscale or 16-bit before. What is the purpose of this, and could it have 
caused #1 above?

Cheers,
George Le Masurier

Cool, maybe, leaning towards blue, but I've never noticed 
a "greenish" cast.

I always convert my images to 16-bit grayscale and save the images as 
Grayscale Gamma 2.2.

So, I'm sending a 16-bit grayscale image with GG 2.2 profile to the 
printer.

I'm getting pretty much on print what my profiled monitor is showing.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "glemasurier" 
<george.lemasurier@m...> wrote:
>
> I have two questions:
> 1.  I made some proof prints today on Epson heavyweight matte, 
using my 
> C84 with EZN inks, and I'm seeing a green color casting in 
daylight. This 
> printer has never had color inks in it. Am I crazy, or is this 
possible?
> 
> 2.  I read in Clayton Jones' online articles that after turning an 
image to 
> monochrome in channel mixer, I should convert it to grayscale 
(image/mode) 
> before doing my work and then back to RGB again before printing. It 
also 
> suggest converting to 16-bit to do work on the image, and then back 
to 8-bit 
> before printing. I've always worked in 8-bit RGB and never 
converted to 
> grayscale or 16-bit before. What is the purpose of this, and could 
it have 

> caused #1 above?
> 
> Cheers,
> George Le Masurier
>

Hello George,

>2.I read in Clayton Jones' online articles that after turning an 
>image to monochrome in channel mixer, I should convert it to 
>grayscale (image/mode) before doing my work and then back to RGB 
>again before printing. 

Are you sure I said this?  I don't ever do this (change back to RGB
for printing).  Which article was it?  The only places (I think) that
I discussed this subject were in Articles #7 and #9.  I just looked at
those to be sure and didn't see anything about changing back to RGB. 
I'm wondering if you are mixing this with Paul Roark's RGB printing
techniques?



>It also suggest converting to 16-bit to do work on the image, and 
>then back to 8-bit before printing. I've always worked in 8-bit 
>RGB and never converted to grayscale or 16-bit before. What is the 
>purpose of this...

Working in 16 bit avoids the heavily combed histograms (which can
cause posterization in the prints) that result from applying curves,
levels and other manipulations.  Changing back to 8 bit is because
once the work is done 16 bit isn't needed any more (the image is
converted to 8 bit by the printer driver when it sends it to the
printer).  Going back to 8 bit reduces the file size by half.  But,
you want to be sure that all the work is done.  I usually wait until
I'm really certain I won't be doing any more manipulation.

As for changing from RGB to grayscale, in my experiments I have never
found an advantage to staying in RGB (the resulting prints are a tiny
bit different, but not better).  Going to grayscale reduces image size
by 2/3.  

For example, a 16 bit RGB tiff from my 8 mp digicam is about 45mg
after conversion from RAW.  Going to 16 bit grayscale makes it 15 mg.
Going to 8 bit when I'm done working on it reduces it to 7.5 mg.  The
print quality from each of them is the same.

I have even found an advantage in converting an 8 bit RGB from my
pocket camera to 16 bit before conversion to BW.  It's not the same as
an original 16 bit file, but it does help reduce combing.  I recently
found an article on Keith Cooper's web site that explains why:

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/16_bit_black_and_white.html


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton,

Yikes. My mistake. I just reread, too, and you do NOT say convert back to RGB 
for printing. Somehow, I made that assumption. I've been reading so many 
articles recently, I must have picked it up somewhere else.  Sorry. 

I wondered if converting to grayscale changes the values achieved in channel 
mixer or whatever other BW conversion method being used?

BTW, I've found your articles highly informative. I especially enjoyed the one 
on color settings and profiles. That's been quite helpful.

Cheers,
George

Hi George,

>...I must have picked it up somewhere else.  

Ahh, that's good to hear, I'm relieved <g>.


 
>I wondered if converting to grayscale changes the values achieved 
>in channel mixer or whatever other BW conversion method being used?

No, it doesn't change anything.  I've never seen it do that no matter
what conversion method I used.

 
>BTW, I've found your articles highly informative. I especially 
>enjoyed the one on color settings and profiles. That's been 
>quite helpful.

Thanks, glad they have been helpful.  


I had a thought about your question re the greenish color, & wondered
if the printer had been unused for a while.  There have been
occasional reports of toner pigments settling out when the carts
aren't agitated for a long time, resulting in a greenish color.  Just
a thought, don't know if it applies to a small printer (most reports
I've seen have been from the larger 7xxx models).  Maybe Paul R. can
add his thoughts on this...


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <
cj@c...> wrote:

> I had a thought about your question re the greenish color, & wondered
> if the printer had been unused for a while.  There have been
> occasional reports of toner pigments settling out when the carts
> aren't agitated for a long time, resulting in a greenish color.  Just
> a thought, don't know if it applies to a small printer (most reports
> I've seen have been from the larger 7xxx models).  Maybe Paul R. can
> add his thoughts on this...

That's exactly the case. I've been rennovating a house and haven't printed on 
the C84 in about 4-5 months. I had some pre-filled EZN carts in the printer 
and just fired it up again last week. I got a few neutral prints right off (without 
even doing a cleaning cycle). Then it sat for about 3 days again and when I 
printed this weekend, I started noticing a greenish tint, almost like 
metamarism.

Has anyone else experience this? If you're right, perhaps it will go away after 
a few more prints.

Cheers,
George

> ...haven't printed on the C84 in about 4-5 months. 
> I had some pre-filled EZN carts in the printer
> and just fired it up again last week. I got a few neutral 
> prints right off (without even doing a cleaning cycle). 
> Then it sat for about 3 days again and when I
> printed this weekend, I started noticing a greenish tint, ...


It sounds like settling.  That usually isn't an issue with desktop printers
because the carts are in the head carriage and get well agitated every time
the printer is used.  (With large format printers many pull the carts and
agitate them.)

The pattern of neutral then green is a bit odd.  It probably relates to what
ink was in the sponge as opposed to elsewhere.  It should go away as use
agitates the ink in the reservoir, but one could also remove the carts use a
bottom fill adapter to pull the affected ink out.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

George,

I haven't noticed image changes when converting monochrome channel mixer to grayscale by itself, but I have noticed that, with a stack of image layers and correction layers, there is a difference between Photoshop 6's "Flatten Image" command (in Windows XP) and manually flattening each layer into the one below successively to end up with a single layer. I have been surprised to see that Flatten Image makes a marked change in the screen appearance of the image while using CTRL-E from the bottom-up on a layer stack made no difference to the image. Maybe this is what you saw?

As to the greenish cast, has it ever looked a more neutral gray in daylight? It's not light reflected from something green in you outdoor setting, is it?

Frank
________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:57:36 -0000

   From: "glemasurier" <george.lemasurier@...>
Subject: Re: Am I crazy?

Clayton,

Yikes. My mistake. I just reread, too, and you do NOT say convert back to RGB 
for printing. Somehow, I made that assumption. I've been reading so many 
articles recently, I must have picked it up somewhere else.  Sorry. 

I wondered if converting to grayscale changes the values achieved in channel 
mixer or whatever other BW conversion method being used?

BTW, I've found your articles highly informative. I especially enjoyed the one 
on color settings and profiles. That's been quite helpful.

Cheers,
George

Hello Frank,

>...Flatten Image makes a marked change in the screen appearance 
>of the image while using CTRL-E from the bottom-up on a layer 
>stack made no difference to the image. 

I'm surprised to hear this because it has not been my experience.
I often have lots of layers and always use Flatten in the Layers menu,
and it never changes the image.  I'm wondering what's going on here &
would like to hear what others have to say.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I flatten too, and I never noticed any "change". I also save the 
original version without flattening or merging the layers in case I 
want to make changes later on.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
>
> Hello Frank,
> 
> >...Flatten Image makes a marked change in the screen appearance 
> >of the image while using CTRL-E from the bottom-up on a layer 
> >stack made no difference to the image. 
> 
> I'm surprised to hear this because it has not been my experience.
> I often have lots of layers and always use Flatten in the Layers 
menu,
> and it never changes the image.  I'm wondering what's going on here 
&

> would like to hear what others have to say.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

>> I often have lots of layers and always use Flatten in the
Layers 
>menu,
>> and it never changes the image.  I'm wondering what's going
on here 
>&
>> would like to hear what others have to say.
>> 

I see it everytime I flatten an image with text layers that
have bevel/emboss and drop shadow applied. Drives me nuts but
I guess I'm learning to live with it.

Regards, Walt

http://www.kauaiphotos.biz

On Dec 5, 2005, Paul Roark wrote:
> The pattern of neutral then green is a bit odd.  It probably relates 
> to what
> ink was in the sponge as opposed to elsewhere.

There was a period a couple of years ago when a number of people on the 
Piezo 3000 site were complaining about the
"greenies" from the CIS cartridges especially. It took a long time to 
find out, but it seems that the solvents in the inks were
reacting with the plastic in the cartridges and/or the sponges. This 
happened after the inks were in contact for quite a while,
but I can't remember how long, even though it eventually happened to 
me, as well.

The cure, in that case turned out to be a re-formulation of the plastic 
cartridges (not the ink), to one that would not react in such
a manner. Some of you on this list must remember this. Tyler - didn't 
you get some green prints back then?
Perhaps something similar is happening here.

Clay Price

Sorry in advance for the OT question, but with the recent mention of pigment
MIS B&W inks and their great performance in the Epson R200 and R300 series
printers, I'm wondering what MIS color inks would be recommended for the
Epson R200 and R300 series printers?  Would a subset of the MIS Pro inks (no
LK) work or would a C86 be needed?  I'm looking for an economical color
printer and ink for my wife to print out newsletters and cards with on plain
paper and card stock.

Thanks,
Scott

"scott_now_coming" wrote:
>
> I flatten too, and I never noticed any "change". I also save the 
> original version without flattening or merging the layers in case I 
> want to make changes later on.

I never flatten. I always save my images as .psd files so I can go back later 
and work on them if necessary.

What is the advantage of flattening? I would assume you save a file with the 
layers for future work and make a duplicate image that you flatten, is that 
correct?

BTW, thanks to all for thoughts on the green cast. Tonight I'm replacing the 
carts with brand new refillable ones. I'll report back if that cures my problem. If 
it does, then it was most likely that the carts sat idle for so long.

If my 4 oz. bottles have also sat for a considerable period of time, should I 
agitate them before filling the carts, or would that have a detrimental effect?

Cheers,
George

George-
IMO it would be detrimental not to agitate the bottles before filling 
the carts. One has to remember that all these inks
have some pigment (if not entirely so) in them, and this creates a 
suspension -- eventually, no matter how small the particles,
they can settle out. So if they've been sitting, it would be good to 
swirl them around pretty vigorously to get them homogeneous .
The plastic bottles, if they are like those in Jon Cone's inks, are 
high quality polyethylene and non-reactive.
Let us know how it works.
Clay Price

On Dec 6, 2005, at 5:08 PM
George Lemasurier wrote:

>    From: "glemasurier" <george.lemasurier@...>
> Subject: Re: Am I crazy?
>
> BTW, thanks to all for thoughts on the green cast. Tonight I'm 
> replacing the
> carts with brand new refillable ones. I'll report back if that cures 
> my problem. If
> it does, then it was most likely that the carts sat idle for so long.
>
> If my 4 oz. bottles have also sat for a considerable period of time, 
> should I
> agitate them before filling the carts, or would that have a 
> detrimental effect?

I'm really sold on the MIP PRO pigment color inks for color photos.
They do require a custom printer profile but they make prints as good
as anything I've seen. 

But if you are doing cards and notes where archivalness and exact
color balance is critical, I'd suggest using cheap dye ink. I used the
MIS $5 Chinese carts for uses such as this. What can you say, they
work, colors are bright and they cost $5. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott West"
<westsdad@c...> wrote:
>
> Sorry in advance for the OT question, but with the recent mention of
pigment
> MIS B&W inks and their great performance in the Epson R200 and R300
series
> printers, I'm wondering what MIS color inks would be recommended for the
> Epson R200 and R300 series printers?  Would a subset of the MIS Pro
inks (no
> LK) work or would a C86 be needed?  I'm looking for an economical color
> printer and ink for my wife to print out newsletters and cards with
on plain

> paper and card stock.
> 
> Thanks,
> Scott
>

For the black position with glossy paper, use the R2-PK or R2-PKN (better)
that I formulated.  The MIS Pro PK has too high a load for the R200.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> Michaels
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 3:36 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: OT: What MIS Color Inks for use in an Epson R200
> or R300 series printer?
> 
> I'm really sold on the MIP PRO pigment color inks for color photos.
> They do require a custom printer profile but they make prints as good
> as anything I've seen.
> 
> But if you are doing cards and notes where archivalness and exact
> color balance is critical, I'd suggest using cheap dye ink. I used the
> MIS $5 Chinese carts for uses such as this. What can you say, they
> work, colors are bright and they cost $5.
> 
> Bob Michaels
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott West"
> <westsdad@c...> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry in advance for the OT question, but with the recent mention of
> pigment
> > MIS B&W inks and their great performance in the Epson R200 and R300
> series
> > printers, I'm wondering what MIS color inks would be recommended for the
> > Epson R200 and R300 series printers?  Would a subset of the MIS Pro
> inks (no
> > LK) work or would a C86 be needed?  I'm looking for an economical color
> > printer and ink for my wife to print out newsletters and cards with
> on plain
> > paper and card stock.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Scott
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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