Digital BW, The Print

What I can tell you is that we are involved from beginning to end in the production of our papers. Although we don't own a paper mill, we order our papers specifically manufactured to our requirements, and have developed several coatings to work with both the paper and pigment based inksets. In 2004 we purchased our own converting equipment and do all converting to sheets and rolls in house. We are happy to answer questions, address concerns, and stand behind our products. If there is a problem, we make it right by the customer. I certainly won't say we have never had any problems, but I believe we have always done the best we could for our customers. Our papers are competitively priced because they are made in the USA (no import costs) and since we do everything "in-house", our overhead is less than some. Hope I have answered some of your questions/concerns.
Diana York   888-807-2248
Hawk Mountain Papers
www.hawkmtnartpapers.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: wwodets 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 4:50 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] QC of Hawk Mountain Papers?


  I'm wondering about people's experience with the quality and 
  consistency of the Hawk Mountain papers.  After my recent problems with 
  Premiere I'm a bit gun shy about smaller brands.  The low cost of 
  seemingly good papers from Hawk Mountain is part of what raises the 
  question for me (I guess).  I am particularly looking at the Merlin 
  Natural. 

  Thanks,
  Walt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry, meant to send that previous message to Walt "off-list". My apologies  :(

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I hope the list won't mind a couple of follow-up questions to this:

*  can you explain what you mean by "conversion".  I assume you simply mean
cutting down sizes and not much more.

*  when you say "manufactured to [your] requirements", how much input do you
really have beyond selecting from the list that your paper mill provides?
Do you research and design substrate structures and provide the "recipe" to
the mill or would you say that they come and sell you THEIR list of
products?

*  when you say you have "developed several coatings", is this research
conducted in-house or by, or in conjunction with, other firms?

* who does your production?

The paper manufacturing world is deliberately opaque.  It would be a breath
of fresh air if a competitive company like Hawk Mountain could provide some
visibility into this area.  I am sure such clarity can only promote their
reputation in the eyes of the customer.

Cheers

Steve

> From: Diana York~Hawk Mtn Papers <diana@...>
> Organization: Hawk Mtn Papers
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:23:27 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QC of Hawk Mountain Papers?
> 
> What I can tell you is that we are involved from beginning to end in the
> production of our papers. Although we don't own a paper mill, we order our
> papers specifically manufactured to our requirements, and have developed
> several coatings to work with both the paper and pigment based inksets. In
> 2004 we purchased our own converting equipment and do all converting to sheets
> and rolls in house. We are happy to answer questions, address concerns, and
> stand behind our products. If there is a problem, we make it right by the
> customer. I certainly won't say we have never had any problems, but I believe
> we have always done the best we could for our customers. Our papers are
> competitively priced because they are made in the USA (no import costs) and
> since we do everything "in-house", our overhead is less than some. Hope I have
> answered some of your questions/concerns.
> Diana York   888-807-2248
> Hawk Mountain Papers
> www.hawkmtnartpapers.com

Converting:
We get mill rolls of paper from the coating facility that are various widths and usually 40" outer diameter. We then either convert them into short rolls of widths from 13" to 44" or cut them into sheet sizes from 4"x6" to 35"x47". We owned a paper converting business in Holyoke MA before we started Hawk Mountain Papers
Our requirements:
We work with representatives from the paper mill to get the best mix to work as a base for a coated inkjet paper. We supply the specs we need such as fiber length, type, caliper, GSM, brightness, smoothness, opacity, cleanliness. Different cotton fiber lengths give different characteristics to the base paper. So to answer your question - we supply the recipe to the mill. The mills we work with make many different paper products - inkjet paper base is a very, very small part of their business.
Coatings:
Both. We have worked with chemists to develop our own coating formulations (from scratch - purchasing all the chemicals individually and having the coating mixed for us) and we have purchased premixed coatings to which we have added additional ingredients. The coating is then applied to the base paper.
Who does our production:
Paper mills - If I told you, I'd have to kill you <G>. They are in the USA. Coating facility - same thing (we rent time on a coating machine). Converting and packaging - we do in our facility in Shoemakersville PA.
While I couldn't be completely clear in answering all your questions, I hope I did help.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Kale 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 5:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QC of Hawk Mountain Papers?


  I hope the list won't mind a couple of follow-up questions to this:

  *  can you explain what you mean by "conversion".  I assume you simply mean
  cutting down sizes and not much more.

  *  when you say "manufactured to [your] requirements", how much input do you
  really have beyond selecting from the list that your paper mill provides?
  Do you research and design substrate structures and provide the "recipe" to
  the mill or would you say that they come and sell you THEIR list of
  products?

  *  when you say you have "developed several coatings", is this research
  conducted in-house or by, or in conjunction with, other firms?

  * who does your production?

  The paper manufacturing world is deliberately opaque.  It would be a breath
  of fresh air if a competitive company like Hawk Mountain could provide some
  visibility into this area.  I am sure such clarity can only promote their
  reputation in the eyes of the customer.

  Cheers

  Steve

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Diana

That's helpful.  I really do believe that paper manufacturers, especially
those younger, newer firms looking to take business away from the big firms,
will benefit from providing the consumer with greater insight into the
industry.  Frankly, the paper industry is way too "slippery" with many
identical products sold under different brands each purporting to be unique.
I would encourage you to provide as much information as you are allowed to
by your commercial contracts.  If you believe your products to be
essentially the same as those marketed under another brand then say so - you
can still compete on service (and price).  If they are not then tell as why
and how they aren't.  Certainly don't be afraid of providing too much
information.  This forum (and the Wide Format Forum) are well-versed in
matters technical and would appreciate the additional knowledge/clarity.
Even those who aren't able to understand any technical information or
clarification you choose to provide will take confidence in your approach,
your service and your openness.  That can only lead to more sales.

There are rules placed in forums - and etiquette - which govern the
behaviour of commercial organisations in the forum.  I would expect/hope
that these would not prevent an active, helpful, commercial entity providing
information on the products we use.  It is of course a fine line between
that and using the forum for marketing but I think a degree of common sense
will mean that the provision of information is not considered intrusive
advertising.  If anyone oversteps the mark then I am sure they will be
promptly reminded.

I would encourage you, Diana, and others in like positions to seek approval
for greater disclosure in relation to your own products.  I would also
encourage you to provide more general information on the substrate and
coating industry - who the key players are, who's at the leading edge in
terms of coating or infusion technology development etc etc.

Happy holidays

Steve

> From: Diana York~Hawk Mtn Papers <diana@...>
> Organization: Hawk Mtn Papers
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:15:48 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QC of Hawk Mountain Papers?
> 
> Converting:
> We get mill rolls of paper from the coating facility that are various widths
> and usually 40" outer diameter. We then either convert them into short rolls
> of widths from 13" to 44" or cut them into sheet sizes from 4"x6" to 35"x47".
> We owned a paper converting business in Holyoke MA before we started Hawk
> Mountain Papers
> Our requirements:
> We work with representatives from the paper mill to get the best mix to work
> as a base for a coated inkjet paper. We supply the specs we need such as fiber
> length, type, caliper, GSM, brightness, smoothness, opacity, cleanliness.
> Different cotton fiber lengths give different characteristics to the base
> paper. So to answer your question - we supply the recipe to the mill. The
> mills we work with make many different paper products - inkjet paper base is a
> very, very small part of their business.
> Coatings:
> Both. We have worked with chemists to develop our own coating formulations
> (from scratch - purchasing all the chemicals individually and having the
> coating mixed for us) and we have purchased premixed coatings to which we have
> added additional ingredients. The coating is then applied to the base paper.
> Who does our production:
> Paper mills - If I told you, I'd have to kill you <G>. They are in the USA.
> Coating facility - same thing (we rent time on a coating machine). Converting
> and packaging - we do in our facility in Shoemakersville PA.
> While I couldn't be completely clear in answering all your questions, I hope I
> did help.
>

Diana-

I too appreciate your response to Steve's post--the unclarity in the 
paper business is disturbing.  Your responsiveness and availability 
are much appreciated.

On the Merlin Natural that I've just received a few sample sheets of, 
here are my impressions.  It is a nice sheet, but a bit thin to my 
tastes.  The uncoated side is also quite rough to the touch and lacks 
the refinement of some other high-end papers (though I understand a 
double coated version is available).  It is fairly white for a non-
OBA paper but not to the standards of the Epson USFA.  On two targets 
from the 4800 with K3 inks, the dmax was only 1.542 and 1.550 
(compared to about 1.66 for USFA).  So this last is certainly a 
problem for me. 

I suspect this is one of those papers that would do better with Eboni 
or something like that.  Epson has the printer/driver/paper/ink thing 
on a very short, refined leash.

Thanks,
Walt



  



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> Diana
> 
> That's helpful.  I really do believe that paper manufacturers, 
especially
> those younger, newer firms looking to take business away from the 
big firms,
> will benefit from providing the consumer with greater insight into 
the
> industry.  Frankly, the paper industry is way too "slippery" with 
many
> identical products sold under different brands each purporting to 
be unique.
> I would encourage you to provide as much information as you are 
allowed to
> by your commercial contracts.  If you believe your products to be
> essentially the same as those marketed under another brand then say 
so - you
> can still compete on service (and price).  If they are not then 
tell as why
> and how they aren't.  Certainly don't be afraid of providing too 
much
> information.  This forum (and the Wide Format Forum) are well-
versed in
> matters technical and would appreciate the additional 
knowledge/clarity.
> Even those who aren't able to understand any technical information 
or
> clarification you choose to provide will take confidence in your 
approach,
> your service and your openness.  That can only lead to more sales.
> 
> There are rules placed in forums - and etiquette - which govern the
> behaviour of commercial organisations in the forum.  I would 
expect/hope
> that these would not prevent an active, helpful, commercial entity 
providing
> information on the products we use.  It is of course a fine line 
between
> that and using the forum for marketing but I think a degree of 
common sense
> will mean that the provision of information is not considered 
intrusive
> advertising.  If anyone oversteps the mark then I am sure they will 
be
> promptly reminded.
> 
> I would encourage you, Diana, and others in like positions to seek 
approval
> for greater disclosure in relation to your own products.  I would 
also
> encourage you to provide more general information on the substrate 
and
> coating industry - who the key players are, who's at the leading 
edge in
> terms of coating or infusion technology development etc etc.
> 
> Happy holidays
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> > From: Diana York~Hawk Mtn Papers <diana@h...>
> > Organization: Hawk Mtn Papers
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:15:48 -0500
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QC of Hawk Mountain Papers?
> > 
> > Converting:
> > We get mill rolls of paper from the coating facility that are 
various widths
> > and usually 40" outer diameter. We then either convert them into 
short rolls
> > of widths from 13" to 44" or cut them into sheet sizes from 4"x6" 
to 35"x47".
> > We owned a paper converting business in Holyoke MA before we 
started Hawk
> > Mountain Papers
> > Our requirements:
> > We work with representatives from the paper mill to get the best 
mix to work
> > as a base for a coated inkjet paper. We supply the specs we need 
such as fiber
> > length, type, caliper, GSM, brightness, smoothness, opacity, 
cleanliness.
> > Different cotton fiber lengths give different characteristics to 
the base
> > paper. So to answer your question - we supply the recipe to the 
mill. The
> > mills we work with make many different paper products - inkjet 
paper base is a
> > very, very small part of their business.
> > Coatings:
> > Both. We have worked with chemists to develop our own coating 
formulations
> > (from scratch - purchasing all the chemicals individually and 
having the
> > coating mixed for us) and we have purchased premixed coatings to 
which we have
> > added additional ingredients. The coating is then applied to the 
base paper.
> > Who does our production:
> > Paper mills - If I told you, I'd have to kill you <G>. They are 
in the USA.
> > Coating facility - same thing (we rent time on a coating 
machine). Converting
> > and packaging - we do in our facility in Shoemakersville PA.
> > While I couldn't be completely clear in answering all your 
questions, I hope I

> > did help.
> >
>