Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-10 by bill_hansen20012001

I've got a new Epson 1800. After making some custom printer profiles, 
I'm getting the excellent color results others have mentioned (though 
even the "premium" Epson profiles did not produce good color matches). 
I want to do a small amount of B&W printing also, if that is possible 
with this printer. I know the prints from the OEM Epson inks are cool 
in tone. Can anyone relate their experience using QuadTone RIP with 
the Epson Ultrachrome inks and the 1800 printer? 

A related question RE: the Epson 1800 and Ultrachrome inks - Has 
anyone made a warm quadtone image and blended that with the original 
B&W image to successfully produce a neutral or warm-toned B&W print?

Bill Hansen

Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-11 by Steven Karafyllakis

Hello Bill;

Relatively few on this list bought that printer, so you aren't going 
to get too much of a response. However, I do have one, and I'm 
driving it with QTR and my own ink K3 arrangement using MIS K4 inks. 
I started with some BO tests, and while that works well, I prefer 
the smoother tones of a K2 or K3 print. If you need to keep color 
capability, the best choice is to give up the gloss (which doesn't 
do all that much with the OEM inks and virtually nothing for the MIS 
inks) for a LK, and then work out a few QTR curves (unless you 
already have a RIP) for your favorite papers.

My results so far have been quite good, and having both matte and 
glossy capability of practically any tonal range is downright 
liberating.
 I know the prints from the OEM Epson inks are cool 
> in tone. 
I think you'll find that thecoolness is a function of the profiles 
you're using; The normal color for most of these K inks is a warm 
alsmost sepia brown, so if you want neutral you have to add toners; 
the blue and Cyan work quite well for the 1800 for a neutral print.

> anyone made a warm quadtone image and blended that with the 
original 
> B&W image to successfully produce a neutral or warm-toned B&W 
print?

What do you mean, "original B&W image?"  Curve blending is a built 
in function with QTR, you can blend any two curves for intermediate 
tonelities.

Hope this helps

Steve Karafyllakis
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Bill Hansen
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-11 by Paul Roark

Steve,

> Relatively few on this list bought [the 1800]...
> However, I do have one, and I'm
> driving it with QTR and my own ink K3 arrangement using MIS K4 inks.
> I started with some BO tests, and while that works well, I prefer
> the smoother tones of a K2 or K3 print...

I've been curious what a 1.5 picoliter dot of Eboni looks like.  It sounds
like it still was not very smooth.  Was it the highlight dots of other
problems that caused you to go for lighter inks?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-11 by Steven Karafyllakis

Paul;

The quick answer is not as smooth as I'd hoped; but it's more 
complicated. If you do a QTR ink separation print, you find that the 
matte K gets nowhere near 1.5pl, I don't think its any smaller than 
4pl. The PK is much finer, does a pretty good BO, but its still 
better IMO with 2K or 3K inks. But my over-riding reason for using 
more inks was to bury the microbanding, and I switched LK and LLK 
positions 3 times before settling for what I have-LK in the glop 
position, and LLK in the red. It's stil not as good as the R300, a 
good 1280, or the 7600 (or even the 7500) or anything really that is 
performing as advertised. I think Epson dropped the ball on this one.
too bad, it had the potential of being a great printer for making 
digital negatives, which is what kept me trying with it. 


Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> Steve,
> 
> > Relatively few on this list bought [the 1800]...
> > However, I do have one, and I'm
> > driving it with QTR and my own ink K3 arrangement using MIS K4 
inks.
> > I started with some BO tests, and while that works well, I prefer
> > the smoother tones of a K2 or K3 print...
> 
> I've been curious what a 1.5 picoliter dot of Eboni looks like.  
It sounds
> like it still was not very smooth.  Was it the highlight dots of 
other
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> problems that caused you to go for lighter inks?
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

[Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-11 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
>
> Paul;
> 
> The quick answer is not as smooth as I'd hoped; but it's more 
> complicated. If you do a QTR ink separation print, you find that the 
> matte K gets nowhere near 1.5pl, I don't think its any smaller than 
> 4pl. The PK is much finer, does a pretty good BO, but its still 
> better IMO with 2K or 3K inks. 

Drop size versus dot gain? Does the matte ink realy only drop at 4pl, 
or is the dot gain such that it looks like a 4pl drop?

[Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-11 by Steven Karafyllakis

To me it looks like the drop is coarser, though some of it may be due 
to dot gain. In any case, it is decidedly coarser than the PK drop. 
From what I saw of the 2200 it seemed set up like that also: switch to 
PK and the proplet gets smaller and smoother. I think it is done on 
purpose as a way of coping with the heavier pigment load of matte Ink, 
though I may be wrong.

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
> Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> >
> > Paul;
> > 
> > The quick answer is not as smooth as I'd hoped; but it's more 
> > complicated. If you do a QTR ink separation print, you find that 
the 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > matte K gets nowhere near 1.5pl, I don't think its any smaller than 
> > 4pl. The PK is much finer, does a pretty good BO, but its still 
> > better IMO with 2K or 3K inks. 
> 
> Drop size versus dot gain? Does the matte ink realy only drop at 4pl, 
> or is the dot gain such that it looks like a 4pl drop?
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-11 by Paul Roark

Steve,

Thanks for the information on the 1800. 

> To me it looks like the drop is coarser, ...

I saw that with the 1160 -- definitely not a 3 pl. with respect to the K.
The 1280 K was much better, even though the color jets were about the same.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-11 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
>
> To me it looks like the drop is coarser, though some of it may be due 
> to dot gain. In any case, it is decidedly coarser than the PK drop. 
> From what I saw of the 2200 it seemed set up like that also: switch 
to 
> PK and the proplet gets smaller and smoother. I think it is done on 
> purpose as a way of coping with the heavier pigment load of matte 
Ink, 
> though I may be wrong.
> 


The Epson matte black has a dye component, which of coarse spreads more 
when it hits the paper, so it's probably dot gain. Eboni should show a 
smaller dot than the Epson matte black. But they also could default to 
the larger drop with matte paper, I haven't ever looked in a service 
manual to see what it was doing.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-11 by Paul Roark

> The Epson matte black has a dye component, ...

I don't think this is correct.  Do you have an Epson source for this?

I've fade tested the UC MK, and it is very good -- right up there with
Eboni.  The "hybrid" Epson blacks according to how they react in my fade
tests are the Durabrite and "Archival" black inks.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-11 by Steve Kale

I have heard that dye has likely been reintroduced with the K3 inks,
possibly into the resin that encapsulates the pigment.  If I were Epson I'd
neither confirm nor deny this however and so we are unlikely to ever really
know for sure.  The MK ink, however, is the same from K2 to K3 and so this
speculation would not apply to MK.

BTW I have been playing around with the Nanochromes.  Dmax on HPR is Lab
10.5, 1.3, -1.6.   The same (black) ink on EPSG has Lab figures of 5.3, 1.5,
-3.5.  Epson Archival Matte paper has "normal" performance with 14.8, 1.4,
0.4.  Of course we know nothing about longevity yet but if it's "ok" in that
respect then this could make a very nice universal black ink if nothing
else.  No bronzing at all that I can see so far on EPSG but I have a lot
more testing to do (I can't see any bronzing in the 918 target and the
finish to the inks is very nice).  So far I have just been making ICC
profiles for EAM, HPR and EPSG and also looking at the results of printing
the QTR Calibration Chart, all on my 2100.  The figures quoted above are
from the calibration page printed at 100% ink limit and reading the 55%, 40%
and 80% patches, ie in creating a QTR curve one would likely limit K on HPR
to at least 55%.  If I recall correctly, this is a lot lower than what I
used to use with the MIS UCs or Epson Ucs - I guess that would save some
ink.  LK is quite cool - 100% ink has Lab figures of 28.9, 0.3, -5.7 (55%
ink patch has 39.2, 0.2, -5.7).  It's late here and I'll type up more of my
preliminary work tomorrow and post profiles for those interested in gamut.
I must say though, a density of 1.92 on HPR looks very nice.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:05:42 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks
> 
>> The Epson matte black has a dye component, ...
> 
> I don't think this is correct.  Do you have an Epson source for this?
> 
> I've fade tested the UC MK, and it is very good -- right up there with
> Eboni.  The "hybrid" Epson blacks according to how they react in my fade
> tests are the Durabrite and "Archival" black inks.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-12 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> > The Epson matte black has a dye component, ...
> 
> I don't think this is correct.  Do you have an Epson source for 
this?
> 
> I've fade tested the UC MK, and it is very good -- right up there 
with
> Eboni.  The "hybrid" Epson blacks according to how they react in my 
fade
> tests are the Durabrite and "Archival" black inks.


Easy test, print onto a plain laser/copy/fax/inkjet paper with the 
black, then drop some water on it and see if it spreads. If not, then 
maybe they changed it.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-12 by Ernst Dinkla

Steve Kale wrote:

> The figures quoted above are
> from the calibration page printed at 100% ink limit and reading the 55%, 40%
> and 80% patches, ie in creating a QTR curve one would likely limit K on HPR
> to at least 55%.  If I recall correctly, this is a lot lower than what I
> used to use with the MIS UCs or Epson Ucs - I guess that would save some
> ink.  

Steve,

I should wait for the extended report but:

The limitation on 55% is because your Dmax is reached there 
and no increase above ?
What about detail above that patch, does it still hold ?
A more theoretical question, if an ink reaches Dmax at 55% 
isn't that an unbalanced distribution on that particular 
printer ?  In other words aren't you cutting off one droplet 
size etc ? This is for the black, it could be good for color 
saturation though. If the inks behave more like dyes one 
wouldn't expect a Dmax limitation that low.

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Re: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-12 by Steve Kale

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:44:54 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> The figures quoted above are
>> from the calibration page printed at 100% ink limit and reading the 55%, 40%
>> and 80% patches, ie in creating a QTR curve one would likely limit K on HPR
>> to at least 55%.  If I recall correctly, this is a lot lower than what I
>> used to use with the MIS UCs or Epson Ucs - I guess that would save some
>> ink.  
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I should wait for the extended report but:
> 
> The limitation on 55% is because your Dmax is reached there
> and no increase above ?  What about detail above that patch, does it still
hold ?

Re density - pretty much yes.  Interestingly, on the calibration printout
all the black text is printed at 100% and while not a bleed test like the
chart you prepared there is no discernible bleed issue.  The text is tack
sharp at 1440dpi.  If I were making QTR curves for these inks I would cut K
at 55% on HPR (40% on EPSG and 80% on EAM) or below (with perhaps boost to
these limits) and run the LK ink much higher.


> A more theoretical question, if an ink reaches Dmax at 55%
> isn't that an unbalanced distribution on that particular
> printer ?  In other words aren't you cutting off one droplet
> size etc ? This is for the black, it could be good for color
> saturation though. If the inks behave more like dyes one
> wouldn't expect a Dmax limitation that low.

The other inks can run higher in load and still show increasing density.
Using QTR's calibration page is quite useful in this respect but of course
the results are RIP dependent.  For colour I am simply interested in the
Epson driver results as I while I might be able to afford John Edmunds'
PocketRIP I can't afford an n-space profiling package.  So I'm stuck with
Epson's ink limits and linearization.  On the TC918 target I used for colour
profiling, the 0,0,0 patch returned Lab 10.8, 1.0, -1.7 on HPR.  My concern,
of course, is that the Epson ink load is totally inappropriate for this ink.
Figuring that out will require a lot more testing.

Convert LAB to Density Was: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-12 by Shilesh Jani

What is the formula for converting LAB values to density? My puny 
mind is incapable of thinking in "L".

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> I have heard that dye has likely been reintroduced with the K3 
inks,
> possibly into the resin that encapsulates the pigment.  If I were 
Epson I'd
> neither confirm nor deny this however and so we are unlikely to 
ever really
> know for sure.  The MK ink, however, is the same from K2 to K3 and 
so this
> speculation would not apply to MK.
> 
> BTW I have been playing around with the Nanochromes.  Dmax on HPR 
is Lab
> 10.5, 1.3, -1.6.   The same (black) ink on EPSG has Lab figures of 
5.3, 1.5,
> -3.5.  Epson Archival Matte paper has "normal" performance with 
14.8, 1.4,
> 0.4.  Of course we know nothing about longevity yet but if 
it's "ok" in that
> respect then this could make a very nice universal black ink if 
nothing
> else.  No bronzing at all that I can see so far on EPSG but I have 
a lot
> more testing to do (I can't see any bronzing in the 918 target and 
the
> finish to the inks is very nice).  So far I have just been making 
ICC
> profiles for EAM, HPR and EPSG and also looking at the results of 
printing
> the QTR Calibration Chart, all on my 2100.  The figures quoted 
above are
> from the calibration page printed at 100% ink limit and reading 
the 55%, 40%
> and 80% patches, ie in creating a QTR curve one would likely limit 
K on HPR
> to at least 55%.  If I recall correctly, this is a lot lower than 
what I
> used to use with the MIS UCs or Epson Ucs - I guess that would 
save some
> ink.  LK is quite cool - 100% ink has Lab figures of 28.9, 0.3, -
5.7 (55%
> ink patch has 39.2, 0.2, -5.7).  It's late here and I'll type up 
more of my
> preliminary work tomorrow and post profiles for those interested 
in gamut.
> I must say though, a density of 1.92 on HPR looks very nice.
> 
> 
> > From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@v...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:05:42 -0800
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks
> > 
> >> The Epson matte black has a dye component, ...
> > 
> > I don't think this is correct.  Do you have an Epson source for 
this?
> > 
> > I've fade tested the UC MK, and it is very good -- right up 
there with
> > Eboni.  The "hybrid" Epson blacks according to how they react in 
my fade
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > tests are the Durabrite and "Archival" black inks.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: [Digital BW] Convert LAB to Density Was: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-12 by Steve Kale

Luminance (the Y in XYZ) = IF(A6>7.9996248, ((A6+16)/116)^3,(A6*27)/24389)


Where A6 is Lab L*.  Then

Density = -LOG10(Luminance)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Shilesh Jani <shileshjani@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:01:28 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Convert LAB to Density Was: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks
> 
> What is the formula for converting LAB values to density? My puny
> mind is incapable of thinking in "L".
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> 
>> I have heard that dye has likely been reintroduced with the K3
> inks,
>> possibly into the resin that encapsulates the pigment.  If I were
> Epson I'd
>> neither confirm nor deny this however and so we are unlikely to
> ever really
>> know for sure.  The MK ink, however, is the same from K2 to K3 and
> so this
>> speculation would not apply to MK.
>> 
>> BTW I have been playing around with the Nanochromes.  Dmax on HPR
> is Lab
>> 10.5, 1.3, -1.6.   The same (black) ink on EPSG has Lab figures of
> 5.3, 1.5,
>> -3.5.  Epson Archival Matte paper has "normal" performance with
> 14.8, 1.4,
>> 0.4.  Of course we know nothing about longevity yet but if
> it's "ok" in that
>> respect then this could make a very nice universal black ink if
> nothing
>> else.  No bronzing at all that I can see so far on EPSG but I have
> a lot
>> more testing to do (I can't see any bronzing in the 918 target and
> the
>> finish to the inks is very nice).  So far I have just been making
> ICC
>> profiles for EAM, HPR and EPSG and also looking at the results of
> printing
>> the QTR Calibration Chart, all on my 2100.  The figures quoted
> above are
>> from the calibration page printed at 100% ink limit and reading
> the 55%, 40%
>> and 80% patches, ie in creating a QTR curve one would likely limit
> K on HPR
>> to at least 55%.  If I recall correctly, this is a lot lower than
> what I
>> used to use with the MIS UCs or Epson Ucs - I guess that would
> save some
>> ink.  LK is quite cool - 100% ink has Lab figures of 28.9, 0.3, -
> 5.7 (55%
>> ink patch has 39.2, 0.2, -5.7).  It's late here and I'll type up
> more of my
>> preliminary work tomorrow and post profiles for those interested
> in gamut.
>> I must say though, a density of 1.92 on HPR looks very nice.
>> 
>> 
>>> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@v...>
>>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:05:42 -0800
>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks
>>> 
>>>> The Epson matte black has a dye component, ...
>>> 
>>> I don't think this is correct.  Do you have an Epson source for
> this?
>>> 
>>> I've fade tested the UC MK, and it is very good -- right up
> there with
>>> Eboni.  The "hybrid" Epson blacks according to how they react in
> my fade
>>> tests are the Durabrite and "Archival" black inks.
>>> 
>>> Paul
>>> www.PaulRoark.com
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ³OWNER² AND
> ³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ³OWNER² AND ³MODERATORS² OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Convert LAB to Density Was: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-12 by Shilesh Jani

Thank you. What if A6<8? As in your EPSG?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> Luminance (the Y in XYZ) = IF(A6>7.9996248, ((A6+16)/116)^3,
(A6*27)/24389)
> 
> 
> Where A6 is Lab L*.  Then
> 
> Density = -LOG10(Luminance)
> 
> 
> > From: Shilesh Jani <shileshjani@b...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:01:28 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Convert LAB to Density Was: QuadTone RIP 
vs Epson inks
> > 
> > What is the formula for converting LAB values to density? My puny
> > mind is incapable of thinking in "L".
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> > <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> >> 
> >> I have heard that dye has likely been reintroduced with the K3
> > inks,
> >> possibly into the resin that encapsulates the pigment.  If I 
were
> > Epson I'd
> >> neither confirm nor deny this however and so we are unlikely to
> > ever really
> >> know for sure.  The MK ink, however, is the same from K2 to K3 
and
> > so this
> >> speculation would not apply to MK.
> >> 
> >> BTW I have been playing around with the Nanochromes.  Dmax on 
HPR
> > is Lab
> >> 10.5, 1.3, -1.6.   The same (black) ink on EPSG has Lab figures 
of
> > 5.3, 1.5,
> >> -3.5.  Epson Archival Matte paper has "normal" performance with
> > 14.8, 1.4,
> >> 0.4.  Of course we know nothing about longevity yet but if
> > it's "ok" in that
> >> respect then this could make a very nice universal black ink if
> > nothing
> >> else.  No bronzing at all that I can see so far on EPSG but I 
have
> > a lot
> >> more testing to do (I can't see any bronzing in the 918 target 
and
> > the
> >> finish to the inks is very nice).  So far I have just been 
making
> > ICC
> >> profiles for EAM, HPR and EPSG and also looking at the results 
of
> > printing
> >> the QTR Calibration Chart, all on my 2100.  The figures quoted
> > above are
> >> from the calibration page printed at 100% ink limit and reading
> > the 55%, 40%
> >> and 80% patches, ie in creating a QTR curve one would likely 
limit
> > K on HPR
> >> to at least 55%.  If I recall correctly, this is a lot lower 
than
> > what I
> >> used to use with the MIS UCs or Epson Ucs - I guess that would
> > save some
> >> ink.  LK is quite cool - 100% ink has Lab figures of 28.9, 
0.3, -
> > 5.7 (55%
> >> ink patch has 39.2, 0.2, -5.7).  It's late here and I'll type up
> > more of my
> >> preliminary work tomorrow and post profiles for those interested
> > in gamut.
> >> I must say though, a density of 1.92 on HPR looks very nice.
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@v...>
> >>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> >>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:05:42 -0800
> >>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> >>> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks
> >>> 
> >>>> The Epson matte black has a dye component, ...
> >>> 
> >>> I don't think this is correct.  Do you have an Epson source for
> > this?
> >>> 
> >>> I've fade tested the UC MK, and it is very good -- right up
> > there with
> >>> Eboni.  The "hybrid" Epson blacks according to how they react 
in
> > my fade
> >>> tests are the Durabrite and "Archival" black inks.
> >>> 
> >>> Paul
> >>> www.PaulRoark.com
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
the membership
> > without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the
> > membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and
> > Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the Files 
section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ³OWNER² 
AND
> > ³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ³OWNER² AND 
³MODERATORS² OF
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW,
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION 
OF YOUR
> > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
PARTY ON THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER 
RELATING TO THE
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Convert LAB to Density Was: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks

2006-01-12 by Shilesh Jani

Never mind. Got it, I am slow this AM

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:
>
> Thank you. What if A6<8? As in your EPSG?
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Luminance (the Y in XYZ) = IF(A6>7.9996248, ((A6+16)/116)^3,
> (A6*27)/24389)
> > 
> > 
> > Where A6 is Lab L*.  Then
> > 
> > Density = -LOG10(Luminance)
> > 
> > 
> > > From: Shilesh Jani <shileshjani@b...>
> > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:01:28 -0000
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Convert LAB to Density Was: QuadTone RIP 
> vs Epson inks
> > > 
> > > What is the formula for converting LAB values to density? My 
puny
> > > mind is incapable of thinking in "L".
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> > > <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > >> 
> > >> I have heard that dye has likely been reintroduced with the K3
> > > inks,
> > >> possibly into the resin that encapsulates the pigment.  If I 
> were
> > > Epson I'd
> > >> neither confirm nor deny this however and so we are unlikely 
to
> > > ever really
> > >> know for sure.  The MK ink, however, is the same from K2 to 
K3 
> and
> > > so this
> > >> speculation would not apply to MK.
> > >> 
> > >> BTW I have been playing around with the Nanochromes.  Dmax on 
> HPR
> > > is Lab
> > >> 10.5, 1.3, -1.6.   The same (black) ink on EPSG has Lab 
figures 
> of
> > > 5.3, 1.5,
> > >> -3.5.  Epson Archival Matte paper has "normal" performance 
with
> > > 14.8, 1.4,
> > >> 0.4.  Of course we know nothing about longevity yet but if
> > > it's "ok" in that
> > >> respect then this could make a very nice universal black ink 
if
> > > nothing
> > >> else.  No bronzing at all that I can see so far on EPSG but I 
> have
> > > a lot
> > >> more testing to do (I can't see any bronzing in the 918 
target 
> and
> > > the
> > >> finish to the inks is very nice).  So far I have just been 
> making
> > > ICC
> > >> profiles for EAM, HPR and EPSG and also looking at the 
results 
> of
> > > printing
> > >> the QTR Calibration Chart, all on my 2100.  The figures quoted
> > > above are
> > >> from the calibration page printed at 100% ink limit and 
reading
> > > the 55%, 40%
> > >> and 80% patches, ie in creating a QTR curve one would likely 
> limit
> > > K on HPR
> > >> to at least 55%.  If I recall correctly, this is a lot lower 
> than
> > > what I
> > >> used to use with the MIS UCs or Epson Ucs - I guess that would
> > > save some
> > >> ink.  LK is quite cool - 100% ink has Lab figures of 28.9, 
> 0.3, -
> > > 5.7 (55%
> > >> ink patch has 39.2, 0.2, -5.7).  It's late here and I'll type 
up
> > > more of my
> > >> preliminary work tomorrow and post profiles for those 
interested
> > > in gamut.
> > >> I must say though, a density of 1.92 on HPR looks very nice.
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >>> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@v...>
> > >>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > >>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:05:42 -0800
> > >>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > >>> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: QuadTone RIP vs Epson inks
> > >>> 
> > >>>> The Epson matte black has a dye component, ...
> > >>> 
> > >>> I don't think this is correct.  Do you have an Epson source 
for
> > > this?
> > >>> 
> > >>> I've fade tested the UC MK, and it is very good -- right up
> > > there with
> > >>> Eboni.  The "hybrid" Epson blacks according to how they 
react 
> in
> > > my fade
> > >>> tests are the Durabrite and "Archival" black inks.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Paul
> > >>> www.PaulRoark.com
> > >> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as
> > > they are often being updated.
> > > 
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > 
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
you 
> wish to
> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting 
> this same
> > > page.
> > > 
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages to keep
> > > them short.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or 
> flames.
> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership
> > > without notice.
> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
> digital B&W
> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the
> > > membership.
> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
rules 
> and
> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
> group Owner and
> > > Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the 
Files 
> section:
> > > 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > > 
> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT
> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE 
³OWNER² 
> AND
> > > ³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU
> > > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
OR 
> EXEMPLARY
> > > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
> PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> > > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ³OWNER² AND 
> ³MODERATORS² OF
> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
> THE DIGITAL BW,
> > > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION 
> OF YOUR
> > > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> PARTY ON THE
> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER 
> RELATING TO THE
> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > >  
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > >
> >
>

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.