Digital BW, The Print

I am a relative newbie to b&w printing.  My problem/challenge is a
follows.  I have many old streetcar b&w negatives (116s and 3x5s) from
the 20s onwards.  I'd like to make nice prints from them but can't
seem to get good digital copies.  The images are fine (usually sharp),
albeit often lacking in contrast ... I'm using an epson perfection
4870 photo scanner and corel paint shop pro X for image editing.  I
use the default settings on my scanner to do an initial edit. From
there I open the files in PSP and try, often unsuccessfully, to give
the images a bit more "pop."  My first step is to adjust the levels
... however I'm not sure how to interpret the historigrams apart from
looking for values at both ends ... many historigrams are like an
oscillating curve.  From there, well, as I say, I end up trying a lot
of different things but am never really satisfied.  The images almost
always look flat.  Any suggerstions, even modest ones will be
apprecaited, on where to start?
Thanks
R.A. Paterson

R.A.

I would suggest getting a copy of Photoshop if you plan on doing this on a regular basis. 
You'll be able to do curve adjustments to control your contrast. The curve will look just like 
film curves you're used to (i presume). If this is just a one time deal, I would suggest paying 
someone that knows photoshop to work your files for you. Don't forget, if the information 
isn't on the film you won't be able to make it up in photoshop. Also, a good film scanner for 
smaller than 4x5 is recommended. Flatbed scanners are as good.

Hope this helps

bob

R.A.

I would suggest getting a copy of Photoshop if you plan on doing this on a regular basis. 
You'll be able to do curve adjustments to control your contrast. The curve will look just like 
film curves you're used to (i presume). If this is just a one time deal, I would suggest paying 
someone that knows photoshop to work your files for you. Don't forget, if the information 
isn't on the film you won't be able to make it up in photoshop. Also, a good film scanner for 
smaller than 4x5 is recommended. Flatbed scanners are not as good.

Hope this helps

bob

I meant to say flat bed scanners are NOT as good as dedicated film scanners.

Bob
Thanks for taking the time to respond to the elementary questions (for
this forum) of a novice.  I expect, given that this is someting I
expect to do on a regular basis, I'll have to dig deep into my wallet
and buy a copy of Photoshop.  It certainly is the default tool in
almost every image editing book I've seen.  And as I understand it,
the learning curve is quite steep.

I will admit, I have wondered why the scanned negatives from what I
understood to be a good (albeit flatbed) scanner always seems a trifle
soft.  Could you suggest a couple of scanner brands/models to look at?

Also, do you know if there is a "beginners FAQ" or some such document
in the group archives?  I've not found anything like that in my searching.

Thanks again,
R.A. Paterson






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bobbysandstrom"
<bobbysandstrom@s...> wrote:
>
> R.A.
> 
> I would suggest getting a copy of Photoshop if you plan on doing
this on a regular basis. 
> You'll be able to do curve adjustments to control your contrast. The
curve will look just like 
> film curves you're used to (i presume). If this is just a one time
deal, I would suggest paying 
> someone that knows photoshop to work your files for you. Don't
forget, if the information 
> isn't on the film you won't be able to make it up in photoshop.
Also, a good film scanner for 

> smaller than 4x5 is recommended. Flatbed scanners are as good.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> bob
>

> ... I expect, given that this is someting I
> expect to do on a regular basis, I'll have to dig deep into my wallet
> and buy a copy of Photoshop.  It certainly is the default tool in
> almost every image editing book I've seen.  And as I understand it,
> the learning curve is quite steep.

Photoshop is the industry standard, no question about it.

However, Photoshop Elements is a good, more affordable route.  The main
things it lacks are curves and full 16 bit support.  However, there are good
but partial substitutes for the curves, and there is limited 16 bit support
-- about where full PS was a few generations back.  I bought a copy of
Elements 4 on Ebay for $50 and got a cheap digital camera for my kid for
free.  

I've started to use Elements as a baseline for my workflows so that they
will be more accessible to a larger group of enthusiasts.  Actually, its
treatment of color spaces and color management is in some ways better than
the full version for what we do here.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hi RAP:

I THINK that Paintshop Pro has a "curves" adjustment.  Make an "S" 
curve and you can really pop your contrast.

Another technique (though I am not sure if it is available in PSP) 
would be to use the "Multiply" blending mode in an adjustment 
layer.  I found this retrieves amazing detail and pop from old images.

Good luck...... Jack Winberg

At 03:17 AM 1/19/2006, you wrote:
>From: "paisleyvision" <rpaterso47@...>
>Subject: image editing question
>
>I am a relative newbie to b&w printing.  My problem/challenge is a
>follows.  I have many old streetcar b&w negatives (116s and 3x5s) from
>the 20s onwards.  I'd like to make nice prints from them but can't
>seem to get good digital copies.  The images are fine (usually sharp),
>albeit often lacking in contrast ... I'm using an epson perfection
>4870 photo scanner and corel paint shop pro X for image editing.  I
>use the default settings on my scanner to do an initial edit. From
>there I open the files in PSP and try, often unsuccessfully, to give
>the images a bit more "pop."  My first step is to adjust the levels
>... however I'm not sure how to interpret the historigrams apart from
>looking for values at both ends ... many historigrams are like an
>oscillating curve.  From there, well, as I say, I end up trying a lot
>of different things but am never really satisfied.  The images almost
>always look flat.  Any suggerstions, even modest ones will be
>apprecaited, on where to start?
>Thanks
>R.A. Paterson
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Epson's scanners and their software are good. Starting from the cheaper
flatbeds (the cheapest one with a transparency option is $129 last I
checked), on up to the 4990, the software is consistent and very usable.
I've used Microteks as well, but like them less. Niikon makes a very good
slide scanner if you have many transparencies or negatives (35mm) -- the
5000. But pricey.

You might also look into Hamrick's VueScan as stand-alone scanning software
to use with your existing scanner.

Sounds like you just need to deepen the blacks and lighten the highlights.
While there are lots of ways to do this, a Photoshop curve is the easiest.
Using Levels in Elements or Photoshop is more linear, but you can achieve
better contrast by bringing the shadow slider towards the middle to the
point where you start to see a rise in the histogram. Same with the
highlights, you can bring the highlight slider in towards the middle, to
where the curve starts to rise. That will darken the shadows and lighten the
highlights, effectively giving you more contrast. It will also spread the
histogram out, and if you are over-zealous will result in a "comb" pattern
in the histogram, which means there aren't enough values to go around. Do
this on an adjustment layer so that you can turn it on and off to see what
works.

I don't think there is a beginners FAQ in this forum. You don't say what
scanner or software you're using... Elements is well suited for learning,
and is designed for photographers. It doesn't have the prepress abilities,
but it also doesn't have the high price tag of it's bigger brother. There
are lots of books on image editing out there, with all kinds of slants. If
you have specific scanning questions, you might check out this site:

 http://www.scantips.com/

Jim


On 1/19/06 2:51 PM, "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com"
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Subject: Re: image editing question
> 
> Bob
> Thanks for taking the time to respond to the elementary questions (for
> this forum) of a novice.  I expect, given that this is someting I
> expect to do on a regular basis, I'll have to dig deep into my wallet
> and buy a copy of Photoshop.  It certainly is the default tool in
> almost every image editing book I've seen.  And as I understand it,
> the learning curve is quite steep.
> 
> I will admit, I have wondered why the scanned negatives from what I
> understood to be a good (albeit flatbed) scanner always seems a trifle
> soft.  Could you suggest a couple of scanner brands/models to look at?
> 
> Also, do you know if there is a "beginners FAQ" or some such document
> in the group archives?  I've not found anything like that in my searching.
> 
> Thanks again,
> R.A. Paterson

This is one of the B & W guru's. Works closely with MIS INKS.
   
  HG

Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote:
  

> ... I expect, given that this is someting I
> expect to do on a regular basis, I'll have to dig deep into my wallet
> and buy a copy of Photoshop.  It certainly is the default tool in
> almost every image editing book I've seen.  And as I understand it,
> the learning curve is quite steep.

Photoshop is the industry standard, no question about it.

However, Photoshop Elements is a good, more affordable route.  The main
things it lacks are curves and full 16 bit support.  However, there are good
but partial substitutes for the curves, and there is limited 16 bit support
-- about where full PS was a few generations back.  I bought a copy of
Elements 4 on Ebay for $50 and got a cheap digital camera for my kid for
free.  

I've started to use Elements as a baseline for my workflows so that they
will be more accessible to a larger group of enthusiasts.  Actually, its
treatment of color spaces and color management is in some ways better than
the full version for what we do here.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 




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On 1/19/06, Jack Winberg <jack.winberg@...> wrote:

> I THINK that Paintshop Pro has a "curves" adjustment.  Make an "S"
> curve and you can really pop your contrast.
>
> Another technique (though I am not sure if it is available in PSP)
> would be to use the "Multiply" blending mode in an adjustment
> layer.  I found this retrieves amazing detail and pop from old images.

Both curves and the multiply blend mode are available in PSP.

Lee
--
Lee Hiers, AA4GA
"Have Dobro Will Travel"