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Poor results from MIS EZ warm inks in Epson C86

Poor results from MIS EZ warm inks in Epson C86

2006-01-25 by aldurer2004

I've been using MIS Ebony for black only prints in the C86 and have 
made some good prints.  Now trying the EZ warm inks the tone tends 
towards a sort of pale sepia and to my eyes it has a slightly pinkish 
tone.  I've experimented with the sliders and got the best results 
from cyan +25 mag -18 yellow -18.  Another difference I've noticed is 
that if the print is viewed at an angle the ink in the dark shadows 
has a mottled effect, a slightly lighter shade lying on a darker shade 
on the surface; this is not the case when the ebony ink is used alone 
for BO.  I've been using Epson matt paper, nothing I've seen so far 
from the EZ inks warrants anything more expensive.  Lots of people 
seem to be very pleased with the Epson r2400, until I get mine I think 
I will be return to BO printing; which I've read is supposed to be 
more archival too.

RE: [Digital BW] Poor results from MIS EZ warm inks in Epson C86

2006-01-25 by Paul Roark

> ... EZ warm inks the tone tends towards a sort of pale sepia ...

I describe it at half way to sepia.  It is warm.  Whether it's the shade of
warmth that one likes is subjective.  I find it very close to classic tones
of older silver prints and platinum.  As the most stable ink, I think it's
an excellent ink for old photo reproductions and archiving.  "Carbon on
cotton" is still the digital archival image champ from what I can see.  But
I would not, of course, use Epson Enhanced Matte paper for this purpose.

> ... if the print is viewed at an angle the ink in the dark shadows
> has a mottled effect, ...

EEM and a number of other papers have this problem with lots of printers.
It's not unique to the C86.  Among other things, if a matte paper is
overloaded this can happen.  One of the reasons the R220 is at the top of my
list now is that it has a new paper type in the driver (Ultra Premium
Glossy) that optimizes the dmax on a number of papers.

> ... this is not the case when the ebony ink is used alone for BO.

My only objection to Eboni only printing is the roughness, which is a matter
of style.  I hope that some day the printers are good enough to deliver
Eboni only that is smooth.  At that point I will likely be a major fan of
the approach for matte papers.  In my next fade test I intend to have an
Eboni sample for comparison.  I expect it to be the standard against which
others should be measured.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Poor results from MIS EZ warm inks in Epson C86

2006-01-25 by aldurer2004

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> > ... EZ warm inks the tone tends towards a sort of pale sepia ...
> 
> I describe it at half way to sepia.  It is warm.  Whether it's the 
shade of
> warmth that one likes is subjective.  I find it very close to 
classic tones
> of older silver prints and platinum.  As the most stable ink, I 
think it's
> an excellent ink for old photo reproductions and 
archiving.  "Carbon on
> cotton" is still the digital archival image champ from what I can 
see.  But
> I would not, of course, use Epson Enhanced Matte paper for this 
purpose.
> 
> > ... if the print is viewed at an angle the ink in the dark 
shadows
> > has a mottled effect, ...
> 
> EEM and a number of other papers have this problem with lots of 
printers.
> It's not unique to the C86.  Among other things, if a matte paper 
is
> overloaded this can happen.  One of the reasons the R220 is at the 
top of my
> list now is that it has a new paper type in the driver (Ultra 
Premium
> Glossy) that optimizes the dmax on a number of papers.
> 
> > ... this is not the case when the ebony ink is used alone for BO.
> 
> My only objection to Eboni only printing is the roughness, which 
is a matter
> of style.  I hope that some day the printers are good enough to 
deliver
> Eboni only that is smooth.  At that point I will likely be a major 
fan of
> the approach for matte papers.  In my next fade test I intend to 
have an
> Eboni sample for comparison.  I expect it to be the standard 
against which
> others should be measured.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>Paul thanks for yours.  Are you saying that the EZ warm inks, 
assuming cotton paper, are as archival as ebony black used alone?   
I only use Epson matt for proofs.  My cotton paper currently is 
Hahnemühle German Etching.  Yes, I agree using four carts makes for 
smoother transitions but at A4 maximum size on the c86 I'm not so 
sure BO suffers that much, of course because I now have the EZ inks 
I'll continue to experiment.

RE: [Digital BW] Poor results from MIS EZ warm inks in Epson C86

2006-01-25 by Paul Roark

> ... Are you saying that the EZ warm inks,
> assuming cotton paper, are as archival as ebony black used alone?

I think it would be close.  I'd rate Eboni only as probably having a slight
edge due to the dots being denser masses of carbon.  In general, in denser
masses of the pigments tend to protect each other from the elements (oxygen,
etc.) better.  

> ... at A4 maximum size on the c86 I'm not so sure BO suffers that much ...


The best of the C86s can be very good, not doubt about it.  (My C86 bands,
however.) If I could get that quality from my 7500 with Eboni only, I might
use it for my large display prints.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Poor results from MIS EZ warm inks in Epson C86

2006-01-26 by aldurer2004

Paul, pleased to say getting good results now from the EZ warm inks 
on Hahnemühle German Etching. Do you happen to know how difficult it 
is filling the ez carts oneself?  



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > ... Are you saying that the EZ warm inks,
> > assuming cotton paper, are as archival as ebony black used alone?
> 
> I think it would be close.  I'd rate Eboni only as probably having 
a slight
> edge due to the dots being denser masses of carbon.  In general, 
in denser
> masses of the pigments tend to protect each other from the 
elements (oxygen,
> etc.) better.  
> 
> > ... at A4 maximum size on the c86 I'm not so sure BO suffers 
that much ...
> 
> 
> The best of the C86s can be very good, not doubt about it.  (My 
C86 bands,
> however.) If I could get that quality from my 7500 with Eboni 
only, I might
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> use it for my large display prints.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

RE: [Digital BW] Poor results from MIS EZ warm inks in Epson C86

2006-01-27 by Paul Roark

aldurer2004 wrote:

> 
> Paul, pleased to say getting good results now from the EZ warm inks
> on Hahnemühle German Etching. Do you happen to know how difficult it
> is filling the ez carts oneself?

It's easy.

I assume they are the same carts I fill all the time.  If there is a stopper
in the top of the reservoir, that is where you fill it.  I use a jeweler's
(very small) screwdriver to pry out the stopper.  

MIS's instructions are here:  http://www.inksupply.com/c86_slc_refill.cfm

That picture is different than the half sponge-filled, half sponge-less
reservoir carts I use, but the basic refill instructions are the same.

I usually do not have to prime the cart when re-filling.  It's the initial
fill that requires that.

If you're using all warm ink, one 4 oz. bottle and one syringe (with needle)
will do.  (You might want a bottle of Eboni while you're at it.)  Of course,
you'll need a resetter for the chip.  As soon as one cart is nearly empty,
pull them all and refill all at once.

You'll get a little ink you your hands, but it's no big deal.  Work on an
easily-washable surface, near a sink and with paper towels handy.

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] R220 Question

2006-01-27 by Paul Roark

> ...  Would Paul's ICC for ESG work for the semi-matte?

I don't know.  Since Premium Semimatte is not available in letter size, I
didn't test it.

It's easy to make ICCs using Roy's Create ICC.  Even a flatbed scanner will
work.  See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Making_B-W_ICCs.htm

> is the EZ ebony for the 220 the same as the EZ ebony for the C86?

Yes.

> Would Paul's ICC for Innova Smooth Cotton also be good on Fibaprint?

Probably.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

R220 Question

2006-01-27 by Peter De Smidt

I recently picked up an R220 and am using the EZ inks. The prints are 
definitely better than the ones I got on my c86, as there's 
significantly less texture in the highlights.  Maybe I had a lemon C86.  
Anyway, so far, I've been using Kirkland glossy, because I have a big 
box of it, and soon I'll run some ESM.  Would Paul's ICC for ESG work 
for the semi-matte?  I'd also like to try some matte papers. Question: 
is the EZ ebony for the 220 the same as the EZ ebony for the C86? (I 
have a bunch left from my c86).  Would Paul's ICC for Innova Smooth 
Cotton also be good on Fibaprint?

RE: [Digital BW] R220 Question

2006-01-27 by Tom Baker

Paul  -
   
  How does on linerize before creating the ICC profile?  
   
  Tom Baker
  

Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote:
  
> ...  Would Paul's ICC for ESG work for the semi-matte?

I don't know.  Since Premium Semimatte is not available in letter size, I
didn't test it.

It's easy to make ICCs using Roy's Create ICC.  Even a flatbed scanner will
work.  See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Making_B-W_ICCs.htm

> is the EZ ebony for the 220 the same as the EZ ebony for the C86?

Yes.

> Would Paul's ICC for Innova Smooth Cotton also be good on Fibaprint?

Probably.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 




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Re: [Digital BW] R220 Question

2006-01-27 by vmixer42

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:

[...]

> > Would Paul's ICC for Innova Smooth Cotton also be good on Fibaprint?
> 
> Probably.  

Is this an ICC for Innova Smooth Cotton on the R220 using your workflow?  If so, where can 
one download it?  I don't see it listed on http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/R220_UT-
R2_ICC_Download.html -- is there another place to download (even more) ICCs for popular 
papers w/ the R220?  I have some of this paper lying around, never got great results w/ it 
using the driver sliders (and I've no flatbed, or I'd have a go at it myself, honest!).

Cheers,
--Geoff

RE: [Digital BW] R220 Question

2006-01-27 by Paul Roark

Tom,


>   How does on linerize before creating the ICC profile?

I'm not sure this is what you were asking, but what is important is that the
same settings are used for the test strip that is used for linearizing and
when the ICC is used.  (The Print Preview color management for the first
test strip is set to No Color Management in CS2 or Same as Source in older
versions.  When the ICC is used it is "Let Photoshop Determine Colors.")  As
long as the driver settings are noted and consistent in this respect, the
driver settings can be whatever works best.  The settings I used for the
ICCs I made are listed at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/R220_R2_Readme.htm .

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote:
> 
> > ...  Would Paul's ICC for ESG work for the semi-matte?
> 
> I don't know.  Since Premium Semimatte is not available in letter size, I
> didn't test it.
> 
> It's easy to make ICCs using Roy's Create ICC.  Even a flatbed scanner
> will
> work.  See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Making_B-W_ICCs.htm
> 
> > is the EZ ebony for the 220 the same as the EZ ebony for the C86?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > Would Paul's ICC for Innova Smooth Cotton also be good on Fibaprint?
> 
> Probably.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
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> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
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> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
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> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
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> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
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> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
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> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
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> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
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RE: [Digital BW] R220 Question

2006-01-27 by Paul Roark

I'll post it soon.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> vmixer42
> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:13 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] R220 Question
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...>
> wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > Would Paul's ICC for Innova Smooth Cotton also be good on Fibaprint?
> >
> > Probably.
> 
> Is this an ICC for Innova Smooth Cotton on the R220 using your workflow?
> If so, where can
> one download it?  I don't see it listed on
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/R220_UT-
> R2_ICC_Download.html -- is there another place to download (even more)
> ICCs for popular
> papers w/ the R220?  I have some of this paper lying around, never got
> great results w/ it
> using the driver sliders (and I've no flatbed, or I'd have a go at it
> myself, honest!).
> 
> Cheers,
> --Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
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> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Poor results from MIS EZ warm inks in Epson C86

2006-01-27 by aldurer2004

Many thanks for taking the time and for all of your tips/help. 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> aldurer2004 wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Paul, pleased to say getting good results now from the EZ warm 
inks
> > on Hahnemühle German Etching. Do you happen to know how 
difficult it
> > is filling the ez carts oneself?
> 
> It's easy.
> 
> I assume they are the same carts I fill all the time.  If there is 
a stopper
> in the top of the reservoir, that is where you fill it.  I use a 
jeweler's
> (very small) screwdriver to pry out the stopper.  
> 
> MIS's instructions are here:  
http://www.inksupply.com/c86_slc_refill.cfm
> 
> That picture is different than the half sponge-filled, half sponge-
less
> reservoir carts I use, but the basic refill instructions are the 
same.
> 
> I usually do not have to prime the cart when re-filling.  It's the 
initial
> fill that requires that.
> 
> If you're using all warm ink, one 4 oz. bottle and one syringe 
(with needle)
> will do.  (You might want a bottle of Eboni while you're at it.)  
Of course,
> you'll need a resetter for the chip.  As soon as one cart is 
nearly empty,
> pull them all and refill all at once.
> 
> You'll get a little ink you your hands, but it's no big deal.  
Work on an
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> easily-washable surface, near a sink and with paper towels handy.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Sticky valves on Epson 2400 carts?

2006-01-28 by Harry Saddler

Wondering if anyone's had this happen to them: I switched from a PK  
to a previously used MK (matte black) cart on my 2400, and all the  
dark areas on my next print came out cyan. Eventually, I removed the  
MK cart, put it back in, and it now prints correctly. I'm assuming a  
sticky valve. I keep the semi-used MK and PK carts in a ziploc bag  
with the air pressed out while not in use.

Harry

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