Digital BW, The Print

I've installed MIS VM ink carts on a 1280 and tried the Roark 
workflow current on the MIS site, but my prints are coming out 
slightly posterized in the midtones and lacking black. I've had the 
latter problem using the Brandin workflow on an 1160 with MIS 
original quadtones as well. The problem is not in the file: I'm an 
experienced scanner, and one of the images is a professional 
RGB drumscan.

1) lack of black:
I clipped a bit into the black to try to force the printer to use more 
black ink in the deepest shadows, but these areas remain 
unconvincing, and dark areas just turn muddy. I am now 
tweaking the black channel in the transfer function, and that is 
looking promising, but it darkens the image overall. I guess I 
need to reduce the amount of dark gray ink used (cyan position?) 
to offset the increase in black. Am I on the right track here?

2) midtone posterization:
Transitions in the midtones are not smooth. This is particularly 
evident in shadow areas under the chin on a softly lit portrait. 
Transitions from light to dark gray are abrupt, and separation 
within the dark areas is lacking. The lack of black (stubble on the 
chin, for example) makes dark areas look mushy.

These problems crop up with both warm and cool curves, worse 
with the warm, and are not apparent on a calibrated monitor or in 
prints made with Epson color ink or black ink only. I don't 
understand how the Roark and Brandin curves were created, so 
I have no idea how to go about modifying them. So, I'm tweaking 
the transfer function instead. I'm aiming for a look similar to what 
you get with the Epson black ink only, with plenty of pop and a full 
range, but without the dottiness.

Anyone have any suggestion about how to address these two 
issues? Thanks in advance.

Jacques Cornell

How is your step wedge printing out? Are there noticeable breaks?

Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jacques10040" 
<jacques10040@y...> wrote:
> I've installed MIS VM ink carts on a 1280 and tried the Roark 
> workflow current on the MIS site, but my prints are coming out 
> slightly posterized in the midtones and lacking black. I've had the 
> latter problem using the Brandin workflow on an 1160 with MIS 
> original quadtones as well. The problem is not in the file: I'm an 
> experienced scanner, and one of the images is a professional 
> RGB drumscan.
> 
> 1) lack of black:
> I clipped a bit into the black to try to force the printer to use 
more 
> black ink in the deepest shadows, but these areas remain 
> unconvincing, and dark areas just turn muddy. I am now 
> tweaking the black channel in the transfer function, and that is 
> looking promising, but it darkens the image overall. I guess I 
> need to reduce the amount of dark gray ink used (cyan position?) 
> to offset the increase in black. Am I on the right track here?
> 
> 2) midtone posterization:
> Transitions in the midtones are not smooth. This is particularly 
> evident in shadow areas under the chin on a softly lit portrait. 
> Transitions from light to dark gray are abrupt, and separation 
> within the dark areas is lacking. The lack of black (stubble on the 
> chin, for example) makes dark areas look mushy.
> 
> These problems crop up with both warm and cool curves, worse 
> with the warm, and are not apparent on a calibrated monitor or in 
> prints made with Epson color ink or black ink only. I don't 
> understand how the Roark and Brandin curves were created, so 
> I have no idea how to go about modifying them. So, I'm tweaking 
> the transfer function instead. I'm aiming for a look similar to 
what 
> you get with the Epson black ink only, with plenty of pop and a 
full 

> range, but without the dottiness.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestion about how to address these two 
> issues? Thanks in advance.
> 
> Jacques Cornell

Jacques,
  What platform are you working on?  I believe the
curves for PC have been better worked than those for
mac(and if you are on PC, what OS?).  For the 1280 on
PC, I think version 13 of the curves are the latest. 
Don't know if MIS has the latest for all printers.
Also, what version of PhotoShop are you running? 
These curves perform far better on PS6 than PS5.5.

 -Daniel

--- jacques10040 <jacques10040@...> wrote:
> I've installed MIS VM ink carts on a 1280 and tried
> the Roark 
> workflow current on the MIS site, but my prints are
> coming out 
> slightly posterized in the midtones and lacking
> black. I've had the 
> latter problem using the Brandin workflow on an 1160
> with MIS 
> original quadtones as well. The problem is not in
> the file: I'm an 
> experienced scanner, and one of the images is a
> professional 
> RGB drumscan.
> 
> 1) lack of black:
> I clipped a bit into the black to try to force the
> printer to use more 
> black ink in the deepest shadows, but these areas
> remain 
> unconvincing, and dark areas just turn muddy. I am
> now 
> tweaking the black channel in the transfer function,
> and that is 
> looking promising, but it darkens the image overall.
> I guess I 
> need to reduce the amount of dark gray ink used
> (cyan position?) 
> to offset the increase in black. Am I on the right
> track here?
> 
> 2) midtone posterization:
> Transitions in the midtones are not smooth. This is
> particularly 
> evident in shadow areas under the chin on a softly
> lit portrait. 
> Transitions from light to dark gray are abrupt, and
> separation 
> within the dark areas is lacking. The lack of black
> (stubble on the 
> chin, for example) makes dark areas look mushy.
> 
> These problems crop up with both warm and cool
> curves, worse 
> with the warm, and are not apparent on a calibrated
> monitor or in 
> prints made with Epson color ink or black ink only.
> I don't 
> understand how the Roark and Brandin curves were
> created, so 
> I have no idea how to go about modifying them. So,
> I'm tweaking 
> the transfer function instead. I'm aiming for a look
> similar to what 
> you get with the Epson black ink only, with plenty
> of pop and a full 
> range, but without the dottiness.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestion about how to address
> these two 
> issues? Thanks in advance.
> 
> Jacques Cornell
> 

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In addition to the replies from others, you need to make sure every setting
is is correct in the Epson driver, such as media choice, gamma, automatic,
etc. These settings vary by printer model.

I also think printing out a step wedge is very telling. And have you done a
nozzle check?

Todd

> These problems crop up with both warm and cool curves, worse
> with the warm, and are not apparent on a calibrated monitor or in
> prints made with Epson color ink or black ink only. I don't
> understand how the Roark and Brandin curves were created, so
> I have no idea how to go about modifying them. So, I'm tweaking
> the transfer function instead. I'm aiming for a look similar to what
> you get with the Epson black ink only, with plenty of pop and a full
> range, but without the dottiness.
>
> Anyone have any suggestion about how to address these two
> issues? Thanks in advance.

I'm experiencing similar issues. Previously I was using the Brandin Curves
on an 1160. No posterization, but murky, low contrast shadow detail. I'm now
using Paul's curves on a 1280 (PC). There seems to be a lot of printer to
printer or system to system variations, so in some cases, a bit of curve
tweaking might be necessary.

I've found that (on my system) the shadows print much lighter that what I
see on my (calibrated) monitor. I've done a slight tweak of the RGB portion
of the warm curve, dropping the toe and lower mid tones slightly. The
resulting print matches the screen image, and the blacks are a lot stronger;
quite an improvement, really. This is a crude adjustment, but it does show
the potential of print quality you can get from Paul's curves.

My 21-step wedge looks fairly good, with a solid black and slight 
compression in steps 7-12 (from the black end).

Jacques Cornell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tzinzunzan2000" 
<ldmr@c...> wrote:
> How is your step wedge printing out? Are there noticeable 
breaks?
> 
> Chris Hargens
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jacques10040" 
> <jacques10040@y...> wrote:
> > I've installed MIS VM ink carts on a 1280 and tried the Roark 
> > workflow current on the MIS site, but my prints are coming out 
> > slightly posterized in the midtones and lacking black. I've had 
the 
> > latter problem using the Brandin workflow on an 1160 with 
MIS 
> > original quadtones as well. The problem is not in the file: I'm 
an 
> > experienced scanner, and one of the images is a 
professional 
> > RGB drumscan.
> > 
> > 1) lack of black:
> > I clipped a bit into the black to try to force the printer to use 
> more 
> > black ink in the deepest shadows, but these areas remain 
> > unconvincing, and dark areas just turn muddy. I am now 
> > tweaking the black channel in the transfer function, and that 
is 
> > looking promising, but it darkens the image overall. I guess I 
> > need to reduce the amount of dark gray ink used (cyan 
position?) 
> > to offset the increase in black. Am I on the right track here?
> > 
> > 2) midtone posterization:
> > Transitions in the midtones are not smooth. This is 
particularly 
> > evident in shadow areas under the chin on a softly lit portrait. 
> > Transitions from light to dark gray are abrupt, and separation 
> > within the dark areas is lacking. The lack of black (stubble on 
the 
> > chin, for example) makes dark areas look mushy.
> > 
> > These problems crop up with both warm and cool curves, 
worse 
> > with the warm, and are not apparent on a calibrated monitor 
or in 
> > prints made with Epson color ink or black ink only. I don't 
> > understand how the Roark and Brandin curves were created, 
so 
> > I have no idea how to go about modifying them. So, I'm 
tweaking 
> > the transfer function instead. I'm aiming for a look similar to 
> what 
> > you get with the Epson black ink only, with plenty of pop and a 
> full 
> > range, but without the dottiness.
> > 
> > Anyone have any suggestion about how to address these 
two 

> > issues? Thanks in advance.
> > 
> > Jacques Cornell

Daniel,

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm using PS6 on Mac OS 9. Where can 
I get the latest versions of the curves? I followed the link from MIS 
to Paul Roark's web site, but there wasn't any detailed technical 
information or any curves to download there.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Daniel Perez 
<tronicart@y...> wrote:
> Jacques,
>   What platform are you working on?  I believe the
> curves for PC have been better worked than those for
> mac(and if you are on PC, what OS?).  For the 1280 on
> PC, I think version 13 of the curves are the latest. 
> Don't know if MIS has the latest for all printers.
> Also, what version of PhotoShop are you running? 
> These curves perform far better on PS6 than PS5.5.
> 
>  -Daniel
> 
> --- jacques10040 <jacques10040@y...> wrote:
> > I've installed MIS VM ink carts on a 1280 and tried
> > the Roark 
> > workflow current on the MIS site, but my prints are
> > coming out 
> > slightly posterized in the midtones and lacking
> > black. I've had the 
> > latter problem using the Brandin workflow on an 1160
> > with MIS 
> > original quadtones as well. The problem is not in
> > the file: I'm an 
> > experienced scanner, and one of the images is a
> > professional 
> > RGB drumscan.
> > 
> > 1) lack of black:
> > I clipped a bit into the black to try to force the
> > printer to use more 
> > black ink in the deepest shadows, but these areas
> > remain 
> > unconvincing, and dark areas just turn muddy. I am
> > now 
> > tweaking the black channel in the transfer function,
> > and that is 
> > looking promising, but it darkens the image overall.
> > I guess I 
> > need to reduce the amount of dark gray ink used
> > (cyan position?) 
> > to offset the increase in black. Am I on the right
> > track here?
> > 
> > 2) midtone posterization:
> > Transitions in the midtones are not smooth. This is
> > particularly 
> > evident in shadow areas under the chin on a softly
> > lit portrait. 
> > Transitions from light to dark gray are abrupt, and
> > separation 
> > within the dark areas is lacking. The lack of black
> > (stubble on the 
> > chin, for example) makes dark areas look mushy.
> > 
> > These problems crop up with both warm and cool
> > curves, worse 
> > with the warm, and are not apparent on a calibrated
> > monitor or in 
> > prints made with Epson color ink or black ink only.
> > I don't 
> > understand how the Roark and Brandin curves were
> > created, so 
> > I have no idea how to go about modifying them. So,
> > I'm tweaking 
> > the transfer function instead. I'm aiming for a look
> > similar to what 
> > you get with the Epson black ink only, with plenty
> > of pop and a full 
> > range, but without the dottiness.
> > 
> > Anyone have any suggestion about how to address
> > these two 
> > issues? Thanks in advance.
> > 
> > Jacques Cornell
> > 
> 
> 
__________________________________________________

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Moreno,

Thanks. I hear you. I'm working on the neutral curve, clipping 
black by 6 points, bumping the 90% point to the right about 10 
points, and pulling the 60% point left by 7 points. It's close, but 
I'm in search of perfection.

Jacques Cornell


> I'm experiencing similar issues. Previously I was using the 
Brandin Curves
> on an 1160. No posterization, but murky, low contrast shadow 
detail. I'm now
> using Paul's curves on a 1280 (PC). There seems to be a lot of 
printer to
> printer or system to system variations, so in some cases, a bit 
of curve
> tweaking might be necessary.
> 
> I've found that (on my system) the shadows print much lighter 
that what I
> see on my (calibrated) monitor. I've done a slight tweak of the 
RGB portion
> of the warm curve, dropping the toe and lower mid tones 
slightly. The
> resulting print matches the screen image, and the blacks are a 
lot stronger;
> quite an improvement, really. This is a crude adjustment, but it 
does show
> the potential of print quality you can get from Paul's curves.

> Thanks. I hear you. I'm working on the neutral curve, clipping 
> black by 6 points, bumping the 90% point to the right about 10 
> points, and pulling the 60% point left by 7 points. It's close, but 
> I'm in search of perfection.

Aren't we all.

Contact Paul directly and ask him for the latest
curves for the 1280/mac set up.  You also might want
to enquire as to where he is in the development of
these particular curves.  If they need to be developed
further, you might be able to work with him on this.  
I don't mean to be writing checks for Paul, but it's
been my experience that he is extremely helpful when
it comes to working on new curves.

 -Daniel


--- jacques10040 <jacques10040@...> wrote:
> Daniel,
> 
> Thanks for the heads-up. I'm using PS6 on Mac OS 9.
> Where can 
> I get the latest versions of the curves? I followed
> the link from MIS 
> to Paul Roark's web site, but there wasn't any
> detailed technical 
> information or any curves to download there.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Daniel
> Perez 
> <tronicart@y...> wrote:
> > Jacques,
> >   What platform are you working on?  I believe the
> > curves for PC have been better worked than those
> for
> > mac(and if you are on PC, what OS?).  For the 1280
> on
> > PC, I think version 13 of the curves are the
> latest. 
> > Don't know if MIS has the latest for all printers.
> > Also, what version of PhotoShop are you running? 
> > These curves perform far better on PS6 than PS5.5.
> > 
> >  -Daniel
> 

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Todd,

Thanks for your reply. The answers to your questions are yup, 
yup, yup, yup, and yup.
As I mentioned in my original post, I followed the Roark workflow 
posted on the MIS website. The step wedge helps, but even a 
21-step wedge does not clearly reveal the kind of subtle 
compression I'm seeing. I'm now modifying the RGB composite 
of Paul's neutral-cool curve, clipping black by 6 points and 
applying a modest S-curve. It's helping. I'll report particulars 
when I've finessed it some more.

Jacques


> In addition to the replies from others, you need to make sure 
every setting
> is is correct in the Epson driver, such as media choice, 
gamma, automatic,
> etc. These settings vary by printer model.
> 
> I also think printing out a step wedge is very telling. And have 
you done a

> nozzle check?
> 
> Todd

Moreno, are you doing this in the transfer curve dialogue box?

Jerry

And this is giving you deeper blacks and no posterization? 

I'm always looking for deeper blacks!





Moreno Polloni wrote:

> 
> > Thanks. I hear you. I'm working on the neutral curve, clipping
> > black by 6 points, bumping the 90% point to the right about 10
> > points, and pulling the 60% point left by 7 points. It's close, but
> > I'm in search of perfection.
> 
> Aren't we all.
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
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> Moreno, are you doing this in the transfer curve dialogue box?
>
> Jerry
>
> And this is giving you deeper blacks and no posterization?
>
> I'm always looking for deeper blacks!

No. In the RGB portion of the curve itself. I've yet to print out a
greyscale and check for colour uniformity throughout the tonal range.

I was getting elevated shadow values, so that areas which should print as
black or almost black were printing 70% or so. As you can imagine, without
very much shadow depth and contrast the images would be a bit flat. I moved
input value 14 to 8, and input value 138 to 120. This works for me.

There's still a bit of posterization left in some mid and upper tones, which
I'll try to get sorted out in the next day or two.

As far as black values go, I don't think I'm getting deeper blacks, but more
deeper shadows in the image, so that I have a pretty good match with what I
see on my screen.

Jacques,

What paper are you printing on?  I found that Paul's Mac curves work almost
perfectly for me on EAM. However, it took me quite a while to get a good
step wedge on Somerset enhanced.  First I tried the transfer function; I got
close, but the more I worked it, the worse it eventually got!  My conclusion
was that the TF was too coarse a tool for this.  Then I applied a second
curve on top of Paul's curves;  after _much_ trial and error, I was able to
get a wedge I was satisfied with.  One complication I found- the Somerset
Enhanced took several hours to settle down- they would start muddy or
mottled, with little separation at 60-80%, then by the next morning they
would be beautiful!

Be patient at this stage- I was in a big hurry to get prints the day after I
put my set-up together, but I only succeeded in wasting alot of time (and
paper!)  Get the step wedge right before you start printing full images.

Hope this helps-

Bill Morse
PhotoProspect
Cambridge, MA 02139

on 1/9/02 4:08 PM, jacques10040 wrote:

Todd,

Thanks for your reply. The answers to your questions are yup,
yup, yup, yup, and yup.
As I mentioned in my original post, I followed the Roark workflow
posted on the MIS website. The step wedge helps, but even a
21-step wedge does not clearly reveal the kind of subtle
compression I'm seeing. I'm now modifying the RGB composite
of Paul's neutral-cool curve, clipping black by 6 points and
applying a modest S-curve. It's helping. I'll report particulars
when I've finessed it some more.

Jacques



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Bill Morse 
<willym@b...> wrote:
> Jacques,
> 
> What paper are you printing on?  I found that Paul's Mac curves 
work almost
> perfectly for me on EAM. 

I can second that for the 1270 Mac curves.  I'm new to this, but all 
four curves worked perfectly for me on EAM with no adjustments.  
I did not see any posterization (unless it is was visibly present in 
the original greyscale file) or microbanding.

From: "Moreno Polloni"
>I have a 100 step greyscale image with gradations, if anyone's
> interested.
> It'a about 250k, Photoshop format.

Sounds great! Why don't you upload it to the files section!

Best Regards,

John V.

Ah, yes. I neglected to mention that. I'm printing on Epson Matte 
Heavyweight. I usually use Epson Archival Matte on my 1160, 
and I find the two papers to be nearly identical as far as density 
and tonal distribution go.

> > What paper are you printing on?  I found that Paul's Mac 
curves 
> work almost
> > perfectly for me on EAM. 
> 
> I can second that for the 1270 Mac curves.  I'm new to this, but 
all 
> four curves worked perfectly for me on EAM with no 
adjustments.  
> I did not see any posterization (unless it is was visibly present 
in 
> the original greyscale file) or microbanding.

note: I posted this on the archival color group, but then thought 
that this group might have some insight since I am using black and 
white images...



I am making toned prints from black and white negatives using the MIS 
archival inkset and substituting the extended Y ink because of the 
increased fade resistance. I use either photo rag or EHM.  For the 
most part, no metamerism when using blue or green tones, however, 
when I do sepia, there is a pronounced green shift under north window 
light.

My technique for toning is one of the standard ways to tone black and 
white in RGB mode...that is to add a new layer and fill it with a 
color, then change from normal to color or hard light or color burn 
and reduce the opacity in the color layer until I get what I want.

I suspect that the culprit is the yellow ink.  Has anyone used both 
MIS pigment Y inks, regular or extended and noticed if one is more 
prone to metamerism?

Additionally, has anyone using a 2200 / 7600 / 9600 with the 
Ultrachromes tried this technique and could pass any information on 
as to whether they have metamerism problems or not?

I may have to give up inkjet for this project and go to Lightjet 5000 
with the crystal raster paper If I can't find an inkjet set that 
works...

Only other thing I can think of is to use the MIS-VM inks to get the 
sepia, however, some of the layer techniques wouldn't work without 
cmyk inks...

Bill Agee
-- 

bill agee studio
capistrano beach, ca / laguna beach, ca

http://www.redsilver.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Bill Agee 
<billagee@r...> wrote:
> Additionally, has anyone using a 2200 / 7600 / 9600 with the 
> Ultrachromes tried this technique and could pass any 
information on 
> as to whether they have metamerism problems or not?


I print B/W most every day with the 9600. The new Ultrachrome 
pigments radically reduce the metamerism. I wouldn't say it's 
100% eliminated, but it's reduced to such a degree that it's not 
bothersome.

All in all, the hassle-factor is way-reduced with the 9600; no head 
clogs, seventh ink for metamerism. Profiled with PhotoRag, it's a 
great combination. I would think the same would be true with the 
2200 and the 7600.

Just one user's observations...

MT, http://marktucker.com

Having recently received a Tucker Ultrachrome print...I can attest that they
are lovely. No crossover and no metamerism that I can detect. One warning to
those interested in the Ultrachromes though...is that the dmax is poor
except on EAM  (the Ultrachrome EAM dmax beats MIS-FS/EAM by about 0.1) .
Photorag isn't bad but it is lower than the black you get from MIS FS black
on photo rag (about .07 lower).  Overall the photo matte blacks are very
poor without coating.

Robert

On 10/7/02 7:19 PM, "Mark Tucker" <mtucker508@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Bill Agee
> <billagee@r...> wrote:
>> Additionally, has anyone using a 2200 / 7600 / 9600 with the
>> Ultrachromes tried this technique and could pass any
> information on 
>> as to whether they have metamerism problems or not?
> 
> 
> I print B/W most every day with the 9600. The new Ultrachrome
> pigments radically reduce the metamerism. I wouldn't say it's
> 100% eliminated, but it's reduced to such a degree that it's not
> bothersome.
> 
> All in all, the hassle-factor is way-reduced with the 9600; no head
> clogs, seventh ink for metamerism. Profiled with PhotoRag, it's a
> great combination. I would think the same would be true with the
> 2200 and the 7600.
> 
> Just one user's observations...
> 
> MT, http://marktucker.com
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
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>

I've got one of Mark's UltraChrome prints, and I have to say, I think
it's just lovely. Sure, I could probably carry it around and compare it
to stuff trying to find something with blacker blacks, but just looking
at it, it looks great, and that's what I plan to do with it. dMax isn't
the end of the world. It might make a print a little more snappy, but it
isn't going to make the image any better, and that's what it's about,
isn't it?

Of course, I can't wait to hear Mark's reaction to Robert's coated
prints, sounds very promising.

-Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mtucker508@...] 

Maybe in the next go-round, they'll deal with the matte blacks. For 
me, I'm happy with what I've got. Yes, it could probably be better; I 
just make a habit of never looking at my old MIS dye prints from 
the 7000; that usually takes care of it.

I'm a "coater" kinda guy, so I'm very curious to see what Robert's 
come up with. Even my homebrew OleoPasto helps the blacks a 
great deal. I could continue with that and be happy, but I want to 
see Robert's version, so I can tell people that I coat my prints 
with "a Mayer rod"; I'll kinda raise one eyebrow when I say that, 
and then give a sniff.

MT, http://marktucker.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
One warning to
> those interested in the Ultrachromes though...is that the dmax 
is poor
> except on EAM  (the Ultrachrome EAM dmax beats MIS-FS/EAM 
by about 0.1) .
> Photorag isn't bad but it is lower than the black you get from 
MIS FS black
> on photo rag (about .07 lower).  Overall the photo matte blacks 
are very
> poor without coating.


Ouch! You would go so far as to characterize the black as "very 
poor"? I might not go that far.

But yes, the blacks are "somewhat less than optimum". EAM is 
good, and PhotoRag is good. But they're not the blacks that I 
used to get on my 7000, using ESFA and the MIS 1270 type dyes. 
I'll agree with Robert on that.

I am using the standard Epson driver with a custom profile. I 
profiled it this time using PhotoRealistic/gamma 2.2, instead of 
the standard NoColorAdjustment in the Epson driver. The first 
profile I got back was a tad greenish, but I tweaked it with Kodak 
Colorflow, by adding some magenta, and the new profile is pretty 
sweet.

Robert's got one of my prints, coating it. He claims a very good 
increase in black density after coating it. That certainly got my 
attention.

-MT, http://marktucker.com/

On 10/8/02 1:42 AM, "Mark Tucker" <mtucker508@...> wrote:

> Ouch! You would go so far as to characterize the black as "very
> poor"? I might not go that far.

1.48 is very poor...at least for my expectations from using quad systems to
print BW over the last 2 years.
 
> But yes, the blacks are "somewhat less than optimum". EAM is
> good, and PhotoRag is good. But they're not the blacks that I
> used to get on my 7000, using ESFA and the MIS 1270 type dyes.
> I'll agree with Robert on that.

EAM is about 1.73
Photorag is about 1.66
Everything else is below 1.5
Many fine art papers show bad mottling with the ultrachromes.
I haven't seen the Epson Somerset Velvet yet.
 
> I am using the standard Epson driver with a custom profile. I
> profiled it this time using PhotoRealistic/gamma 2.2, instead of
> the standard NoColorAdjustment in the Epson driver. The first
> profile I got back was a tad greenish, but I tweaked it with Kodak
> Colorflow, by adding some magenta, and the new profile is pretty
> sweet.
> 
> Robert's got one of my prints, coating it. He claims a very good
> increase in black density after coating it. That certainly got my
> attention.

A museo ultrachrome print that showed a 1.48 dmax before coating reads at
2.22 after coating.  I have seen higher dmax for coated quat prints (2.40),
but there is very little visual difference between 2.20 and 2.40.  There is
an enormous difference between 1.48 and 2.20.  The difference between 1.48
(Museo/Ultrachromes) and 1.75 (Museo/Piezotone) is very dramatic.

Personally I think Epson's greed, once again, will be their problem.  They
have created an inkset that works great with a couple of their papers (Epson
Premium Gloss, Epson Premium Luster, Epson Enhanced Matte), and not well at
all with the vast majority of other papers out there.

While I advocate coating fine art papers to achieve Silver Print like
performance, I don't think you should have to...and I think you should have
paper choices...which it appears that you don't with the Ultrachromes.  I
think a much better solution for creating toned prints is the MIS VM set or
the new Piezotone line. In addition I think we are going to see other
options for toning using a variety of toned quad based systems over the
coming months.  These options will be much cheaper than using Epson inks and
will give better performance over a range of media.  The exception to this,
is if you want to make E-surface RC style prints...I don't think the
Ultrachromes can be beat for that at this point.  Personally, that's not my
market...but I realize for a large percentage of the BW market...that's
exactly what they want.

Robert

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Personally I think Epson's greed, once again, will be their 
problem.  They
> have created an inkset that works great with a couple of their 
papers (Epson
> Premium Gloss, Epson Premium Luster, Epson Enhanced 
Matte), and not well at
> all with the vast majority of other papers out there.


Honestly, I really don't think it's Epson's "greed"; I think this is just 
where we are in this evolution of these inks and printers. 

I agree that you could say that the 22/76/96 really nails it for 
Luster or any paper that prints with PhotoBlack instead of 
MatteBlack. Epson should also be given credit for the seventh ink 
to address metamerism.

Probably, truth be known, the matte paper market is probably a 
tiny fraction compared to the Luster/Gloss/SemiGloss market. 
Maybe in the next go-round, they'll deal with the matte blacks. For 
me, I'm happy with what I've got. Yes, it could probably be better; I 
just make a habit of never looking at my old MIS dye prints from 
the 7000; that usually takes care of it.

I'm a "coater" kinda guy, so I'm very curious to see what Robert's 
come up with. Even my homebrew OleoPasto helps the blacks a 
great deal. I could continue with that and be happy, but I want to 
see Robert's version, so I can tell people that I coat my prints 
with "a Mayer rod"; I'll kinda raise one eyebrow when I say that, 
and then give a sniff.

MT, http://marktucker.com/