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Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

2002-01-12 by Michael Kravit

Perhaps Jerry could start one of his famous window test once he receiveds the black dye?

Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Magidson 
  To: digital bw group 
  Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 8:26 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black



  Hey Everyone;

  Following the thread about substituting the MIS VM black with the Epson
  OEM black I decided to give it a try.

  I'm printing on a 1280 and I ran a few prints on LPM & EAM. Comparing
  the same exact file printed with the full MIS VM inkset.

  The blacks on prints with the Epson OEM black ink are MUCH better and
  true. The blacks with the pigment inks have always looked a bit
  transparent to me. 

  About print viewing lighting:

  One thing I have noticed since I started making prints with pigment
  inks. They tend to look better under diffused lighting <indirect window
  light>  than under  Spot / track lights or a desk lamp. To me, this is
  the exact opposite of every other type of photographic prints I have
  ever made < b&w silver prints, C-prints, Ciba prints>.  Traditional
  photographic prints always look more brilliant under gallery type spot
  lighting. I think the weakness / transparency of the blacks in the
  pigment prints is the culprit. Using the Epson OEM black seems to solve
  this problem... but as debated on here... how stable is that black ink?

  -Jeff

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

2002-01-12 by Jerry Olson

If its the NEW epson ink used in the 1280 and 10000 printers, it is
supposed to be good for 26 years. The old ink turned green in daylight,
and was only good for a year or two before fading. (in bright light).

Jerry

Does anybody have a clue as to how many different inksets epson is and
has been using?







Jeff Magidson wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Hey Everyone;
> 
> Following the thread about substituting the MIS VM black with the Epson
> OEM black I decided to give it a try.
> 
> I'm printing on a 1280 and I ran a few prints on LPM & EAM. Comparing
> the same exact file printed with the full MIS VM inkset.
> 
> The blacks on prints with the Epson OEM black ink are MUCH better and
> true. The blacks with the pigment inks have always looked a bit
> transparent to me.
> 
> About print viewing lighting:
> 
> One thing I have noticed since I started making prints with pigment
> inks. They tend to look better under diffused lighting <indirect window
> light>  than under  Spot / track lights or a desk lamp. To me, this is
> the exact opposite of every other type of photographic prints I have
> ever made < b&w silver prints, C-prints, Ciba prints>.  Traditional
> photographic prints always look more brilliant under gallery type spot
> lighting. I think the weakness / transparency of the blacks in the
> pigment prints is the culprit. Using the Epson OEM black seems to solve
> this problem... but as debated on here... how stable is that black ink?
> 
> -Jeff
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

2002-01-12 by Jerry Olson

Michael Kravit wrote:
> 
> Perhaps Jerry could start one of his famous window test once he receives the black dye?
> 

He will.

But I wonder if the new epson oem black is the same as the MIS dye
black? They say it is the same. We'll see.

Jerry
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Mike
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jeff Magidson
>   To: digital bw group
>   Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 8:26 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black
> 
>   Hey Everyone;
> 
>   Following the thread about substituting the MIS VM black with the Epson
>   OEM black I decided to give it a try.
> 
>   I'm printing on a 1280 and I ran a few prints on LPM & EAM. Comparing
>   the same exact file printed with the full MIS VM inkset.
> 
>   The blacks on prints with the Epson OEM black ink are MUCH better and
>   true. The blacks with the pigment inks have always looked a bit
>   transparent to me.
> 
>   About print viewing lighting:
> 
>   One thing I have noticed since I started making prints with pigment
>   inks. They tend to look better under diffused lighting <indirect window
>   light>  than under  Spot / track lights or a desk lamp. To me, this is
>   the exact opposite of every other type of photographic prints I have
>   ever made < b&w silver prints, C-prints, Ciba prints>.  Traditional
>   photographic prints always look more brilliant under gallery type spot
>   lighting. I think the weakness / transparency of the blacks in the
>   pigment prints is the culprit. Using the Epson OEM black seems to solve
>   this problem... but as debated on here... how stable is that black ink?
> 
>   -Jeff
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

2002-01-13 by Scott Hendershot

Jeff,

I'm interested in your experiment with using the Epson Dye substituted for
the MIS VM Black. I did the same thing with Cone's Color Piezography. I used
Generations Beta Black instead of Cone's Black and the images had far more
dynamic range. Unfortunately there was no way to keep the yellow ink
flowing, but that is a different matter.

I think I am going to put Generations black into my 1160 in place of the MIS
VM black and I am wondering if it will change the curves at all. Did you
have to tweak Paul's curves to adjust for the denser black?

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Magidson" <jeffm@...>
To: "digital bw group" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:26 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black


>
> Hey Everyone;
>
> Following the thread about substituting the MIS VM black with the Epson
> OEM black I decided to give it a try.
>
> I'm printing on a 1280 and I ran a few prints on LPM & EAM. Comparing
> the same exact file printed with the full MIS VM inkset.
>
> The blacks on prints with the Epson OEM black ink are MUCH better and
> true. The blacks with the pigment inks have always looked a bit
> transparent to me.
>
> About print viewing lighting:
>
> One thing I have noticed since I started making prints with pigment
> inks. They tend to look better under diffused lighting <indirect window
> light>  than under  Spot / track lights or a desk lamp. To me, this is
> the exact opposite of every other type of photographic prints I have
> ever made < b&w silver prints, C-prints, Ciba prints>.  Traditional
> photographic prints always look more brilliant under gallery type spot
> lighting. I think the weakness / transparency of the blacks in the
> pigment prints is the culprit. Using the Epson OEM black seems to solve
> this problem... but as debated on here... how stable is that black ink?
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

2002-01-13 by Jeff Magidson

Scott Hendershot wrote:
> 
> Jeff,

> 
> I think I am going to put Generations black into my 1160 in place of the MIS
> VM black and I am wondering if it will change the curves at all. Did you
> have to tweak Paul's curves to adjust for the denser black?
> 
> Scott


Scott;

No.. I did not have to adjust the curves at all. The prints with the
Epson black have better looking blacks but the shadows did not block up.
Mind you, I have only printed 2 images with the Epson black so more
images will need to be printed before I can come to some sort of
definite conclusion. I have found that with digital inkjet printing many
problems that crop up are image dependent.

-Jeff

Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

2002-01-13 by janishilesh

Hey Scott,

I also have printed using OEM Dye Black + MIS VM on my brand new 
1280. I did it out of necessity, because the black VM catridge I 
received from MIS has a problem with the chip, and my printer would 
not recognize it. So, I just threw in the OEM Black that came with 
the printer. I have had no previous experience with the 1280/VM 
combo. Previously I had used the 1270/VM, but there were no available 
curves for the 1270 at that time, so I had tweeked the 1280 curves. 

So when I printed with the 1280/OEM Black/VM combination for the 
first time,  using the Roark 1280 NC curve, I got an excessively 
dark, and posterized image. Sometimes, I can get silly enough to 
print a image without first testing on a 21 step wedge(!).

Because of this first failure, I decided I would give this whole 
thing a fresh look. I decided that I would not subject my image to 
any adjustment curve, rather I would force the printer to lay down 
ink in the right proportions. So first I printed "straight-as-is", 
i.e., no curves, no adjustment. The image was medium warm, a little 
too bright in the mid-tones, and a little too dark in the 95% step. 
So I corrected this by using a transfer function in the printer 
dialogue of 95/92, 90/88. And, I increased image contrast by 5%. The 
print, viola, was nice medium-warm, and tonally a very good match 
compared to a previous print made with colored dyes on my old 1270. 
Then, to print the same image more neutral, I just used the magenta 
slider to +12. It worked just fine!

So, I am thinking that the VM inks without curves on a 6 color 
printer (4 color also?) is really a tri-tone solution - black, dark 
gray (normal+toner), light gray (normal+toner). You control tone by 
varying the amount of toner ink (as designed by Roark).

I will send you a print made this way. It is the same image I 
submitted for your print exchange, so you can compare directly with 
my previous attempt using the dye color inks.

Good luck with your efforts.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Scott Hendershot" 
<scott@p...> wrote:
> Jeff,
> 
> I'm interested in your experiment with using the Epson Dye 
substituted for
> the MIS VM Black. I did the same thing with Cone's Color 
Piezography. I used
> Generations Beta Black instead of Cone's Black and the images had 
far more
> dynamic range. Unfortunately there was no way to keep the yellow ink
> flowing, but that is a different matter.
> 
> I think I am going to put Generations black into my 1160 in place 
of the MIS
> VM black and I am wondering if it will change the curves at all. 
Did you
> have to tweak Paul's curves to adjust for the denser black?
> 
> Scott
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Magidson" <jeffm@g...>
> To: "digital bw group" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:26 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black
> 
> 
> >
> > Hey Everyone;
> >
> > Following the thread about substituting the MIS VM black with the 
Epson
> > OEM black I decided to give it a try.
> >
> > I'm printing on a 1280 and I ran a few prints on LPM & EAM. 
Comparing
> > the same exact file printed with the full MIS VM inkset.
> >
> > The blacks on prints with the Epson OEM black ink are MUCH better 
and
> > true. The blacks with the pigment inks have always looked a bit
> > transparent to me.
> >
> > About print viewing lighting:
> >
> > One thing I have noticed since I started making prints with 
pigment
> > inks. They tend to look better under diffused lighting <indirect 
window
> > light>  than under  Spot / track lights or a desk lamp. To me, 
this is
> > the exact opposite of every other type of photographic prints I 
have
> > ever made < b&w silver prints, C-prints, Ciba prints>.  
Traditional
> > photographic prints always look more brilliant under gallery type 
spot
> > lighting. I think the weakness / transparency of the blacks in the
> > pigment prints is the culprit. Using the Epson OEM black seems to 
solve
> > this problem... but as debated on here... how stable is that 
black ink?
> >
> > -Jeff
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

2002-01-14 by toliwel@aol.com

Hi Jeff,

I had a though on the dye black.  Why not look into the dye black that lyson 
uses with their Quad set?  If I remember correctly,  they had a good 
longevity rating by Wilhelm.

Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

2002-01-14 by Paul Roark

Scott,

>...
>I think I am going to put Generations black into my 1160 in place of the
MIS
>VM black and I am wondering if it will change the curves at all. ...

I tested Generations black with the system.  It was the obvious next step in
blackness.  However, what I found was it caused visible metamerism, and the
fade tests were substantially impacted -- and not for the good.

It does change the curves, but I'm thinking maybe a transfer function could
be made for those who do want to use this option.  (It's going to be up to
someone else to make the TF, however.)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

2002-01-14 by Jerry Olson

Lyson inks are very incompatible with other inksets. I wouldn't
recommend this at all.

Jerry




toliwel@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> I had a though on the dye black.  Why not look into the dye black that lyson
> uses with their Quad set?  If I remember correctly,  they had a good
> longevity rating by Wilhelm.
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

2002-01-14 by janishilesh

Hello all,

I had posted good results with the OEM Black/MIS VM combo yesterday. 
Today, I am not so sure. On EAM, at the 90% and 95% grey steps, there 
appears some severe mottling (or ink pooling together into visible 
chuks). At these levels, there is probably significant amounts of 
both types of inks layed down, and they may be interacting with each 
other. this is only a problem if the image has significant areas of 
90-95% grey. I will experiment more later tonight.

Shilesh


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> >...
> >I think I am going to put Generations black into my 1160 in place 
of the
> MIS
> >VM black and I am wondering if it will change the curves at 
all. ...
> 
> I tested Generations black with the system.  It was the obvious 
next step in
> blackness.  However, what I found was it caused visible metamerism, 
and the
> fade tests were substantially impacted -- and not for the good.
> 
> It does change the curves, but I'm thinking maybe a transfer 
function could
> be made for those who do want to use this option.  (It's going to 
be up to
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> someone else to make the TF, however.)
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] MIS Inkset W/ Epson Black

2002-01-17 by toliwel@aol.com

Yes Jerry, you are right. They are not compatible, at least if you mixed them 
together.  I didn't think of this until later.  Sorry!

Tom Wells
toliwel@...
towells@...

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