Digital BW, The Print

Keep in mind when switching to a pigment ink set, things change dramatically.  Even with a professional profile, I don't believe that you will ever get a print to look like that of a dye ink set.  I switched from epson oem carts to a CIS with MIS pigs, color inkset, and never got what I consider to be a satisfying b&w print.  Either abrupt tonal gradations of posterization, there was always a problem.  I wasted a couple hundred sheets of paper trying to make it work, but was unable.  I switched back to MIS color dyes with the CIS, and have been printing beautiful b&w images without any disapointment.
So I'm just warning you. once you go to pigs, everything changes.  As CDTobie said to me when he made my profiles, some pigment ink & paper combinations can only do so much, don't expect it to look like the oem carts with dyes.
Just my 2 cents.
David

If I can't get decent selenium-toned prints from pigment inks, are 
there any dye inksets out there with decent longevity potential. 
Thank you.

Tim

















-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., daschkenas@a... wrote:
> Keep in mind when switching to a pigment ink set, things change 
dramatically.  Even with a professional profile, I don't believe that 
you will ever get a print to look like that of a dye ink set.  I 
switched from epson oem carts to a CIS with MIS pigs, color inkset, 
and never got what I consider to be a satisfying b&w print.  Either 
abrupt tonal gradations of posterization, there was always a 
problem.  I wasted a couple hundred sheets of paper trying to make it 
work, but was unable.  I switched back to MIS color dyes with the 
CIS, and have been printing beautiful b&w images without any 
disapointment.
> So I'm just warning you. once you go to pigs, everything changes.  
As CDTobie said to me when he made my profiles, some pigment ink & 
paper combinations can only do so much, don't expect it to look like 
the oem carts with dyes.
> Just my 2 cents.
> David

Tim,
Have you tried Lumijet? I haven't used them, but they  are made by the same
company that makes my favorite fibre-based paper.
trish

David,

The only way I was able to get pigmented inks to work (MIS Included) was to have professional profiles made for each paper I was using. Once the profiles were made and I set the printer to do no color management,  things worked fine.

Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: daschkenas@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:51 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] re: selenium toning


  Keep in mind when switching to a pigment ink set, things change dramatically.  Even with a professional profile, I don't believe that you will ever get a print to look like that of a dye ink set.  I switched from epson oem carts to a CIS with MIS pigs, color inkset, and never got what I consider to be a satisfying b&w print.  Either abrupt tonal gradations of posterization, there was always a problem.  I wasted a couple hundred sheets of paper trying to make it work, but was unable.  I switched back to MIS color dyes with the CIS, and have been printing beautiful b&w images without any disapointment.
  So I'm just warning you. once you go to pigs, everything changes.  As CDTobie said to me when he made my profiles, some pigment ink & paper combinations can only do so much, don't expect it to look like the oem carts with dyes.
  Just my 2 cents.
  David

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael, I had CDT make up a profile for each of the papers that I was using with the MIS pigs, and the problems that I spoke of still existed to some extent.  I get much better prints with the MIS dyes, full color but printing b&w, than I ever approached with the MIS pigs.
I've given up on the pigs for the time being.  I'm sure that there will either be improvements in the dyes in terms of stability in the near future, or improvemnets in the pigs, in terms of the problems that I was experiencing.
David

My thoughts are the current dyes on good paper should last in the 25 year range before anything starts to change  at all.  Most of my work sits in boxes after its printed, even if I show it, it's just displayed for a brief period.  So my thought are that it will last a pretty long time under those conditions.
David

Mike 
 Which Hahnemuhle papers do you use and where do you get them? Have 
you tried the canned duotone in PS6 that gives a very respectable 
selenium-toned print? It is the last duotone of the black/purple.

Tim






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
> David,
> 
> I hear your frustration.
> 
> CDT made my profiles for me as well. After the pigment ink wound up 
on the floor, my desk and the wall, I loaded the Epson 1280 dyes. I 
profiled them myself with Profiler Pro and my scanner. I get lovely 
prints with great color balance.

daschkenas@... wrote:

>  Keep in mind when switching to a pigment ink set, things change
> dramatically.  Even with a professional profile, I don't believe that you will
> ever get a print to look like that of a dye ink set.  I switched from epson
> oem carts to a CIS with MIS pigs, color inkset, and never got what I consider
> to be a satisfying b&w print.  Either abrupt tonal gradations of
> posterization, there was always a problem.  I wasted a couple hundred sheets
> of paper trying to make it work, but was unable.  I switched back to MIS color
> dyes with the CIS, and have been printing beautiful b&w images without any
> disapointment.
> So I'm just warning you. once you go to pigs, everything changes.  As CDTobie
> said to me when he made my profiles, some pigment ink & paper combinations can
> only do so much, don't expect it to look like the oem carts with dyes.
> Just my 2 cents.
> David

David,
We currently use the OEM pigment inks for our 2000P (our 7000 is on order, which
we will use with Indelible pigment inks) and have absolutely no problem printing
out smooth b&w images with occasional *very* minor crossovers.  Adding a
'selenium toned' look to the prints should reduce that even further as you are
taking the image away from a pure neutral.

Anyone who was in either of the last 2 print exchanges should be able to vouch
for what I am claiming regarding the smoothness and neutrality..

The way we get our grayscale* out of the 6 color in Photoshop:
Mode>grayscale>Mode>rgb

*I just learned of a 'correction' for the color crossovers that can
occur...after converting to rgb, add a 'levels' Adjustment Layer, and set the
the levels (on each color) at the following: R - 1.00, G - 0.95, B- 0.95

If you want to add a selenium toned look:
After conversion to RGB, add an 'Adjustment Layer' for Hue/Saturation', click on
'Colorize' under 'Hue' the number is between 277 and 300 (depending on your
personal taste, or the paper/developer/selenium concentration combo), and set
the 'Saturation' anywhere from -8 to -15.  You can further fine tune that by
changing the opacity of the adjustment layer.

One could also do the same using 'curves', but I suspect is would be more
difficult.

The other way is when still in grayscale, go Mode>duotone (you can then select
from duotone to quadrotone), and select appropriate colors and curves.  (I am
not well versed at this aspect, and I use a lot of trial and error).  But once
you have a combo that works for you, you can 'save' it, and 'load' it on other
images.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Trish,
 No I haven't. I wanted to avoid re-inventing the wheel if someone 
else is doing selenium-toned prints with an inkset that they are 
happy with. I am currently thinking of Gen4 or MIS inksets if they 
last longer than Epson. I currently use Torchon and Eclipse satine 
and EAM to a lesser extent. I'm hoping to find an inkset that offers 
longevity and ease of use as I am not very sophisticated with 
printing.

Tim  










--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ternahan <ternahan@s...> 
wrote:
> Tim,
> Have you tried Lumijet? I haven't used them, but they  are made by 
the same
> company that makes my favorite fibre-based paper.
> trish

have you done a print exchange yet? if not, do it...it's a great way to see
what you like and don't like and have as a reference.
Good luck!
t

Michael Kravit wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> I hear your frustration.
> 
> CDT made my profiles for me as well. After the pigment ink wound up on the floor, my desk and the wall, I loaded the Epson 1280 dyes. I profiled them myself with Profiler Pro and my scanner. I get lovely prints with great color balance.
> 
> I do very little color printing and as such for six months I was very frustrated with the output. I would try adjustments in Photoshop and everything else I could think of. Finally with the profiles and dyes I get the prints I always thought I could get.
> 
> If the Epson dyes give me 26 years under glass, I can live with that. I am printing on BrightCube Eclipse and Hahnemuhle papers. So far, I am very pleased with the results.
> 
> Mike

Mike & or David;

What amount of Metamerism are you getting with the MIS or Epson Dyes?

Thanks,

-Jeff

Michael,
I agree about the matamerism issue (which was not the issue of the thread),
which is why we are changing to the Indelibles when the 7000 arrives.  :- )

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC




>  Harvey,
>
> My experience with the 2000P confirms what you are saying with one very
> important exception. Try and display those monochrome prints in any light
> source other than the one you adjusted the print for an the metamerism
> associated with the 2000P is so severe to make the print useless. Otherwise,
> everyone would be using 2000P's and piggies.
>
> Mike
>
> Michael J. Kravit, AIA
> Architect/Photographer
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David,

I hear your frustration.

CDT made my profiles for me as well. After the pigment ink wound up on the floor, my desk and the wall, I loaded the Epson 1280 dyes. I profiled them myself with Profiler Pro and my scanner. I get lovely prints with great color balance. 

I do very little color printing and as such for six months I was very frustrated with the output. I would try adjustments in Photoshop and everything else I could think of. Finally with the profiles and dyes I get the prints I always thought I could get.  

If the Epson dyes give me 26 years under glass, I can live with that. I am printing on BrightCube Eclipse and Hahnemuhle papers. So far, I am very pleased with the results.

Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: daschkenas@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 5:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] re: selenium toning


  Michael, I had CDT make up a profile for each of the papers that I was using with the MIS pigs, and the problems that I spoke of still existed to some extent.  I get much better prints with the MIS dyes, full color but printing b&w, than I ever approached with the MIS pigs.
  I've given up on the pigs for the time being.  I'm sure that there will either be improvements in the dyes in terms of stability in the near future, or improvemnets in the pigs, in terms of the problems that I was experiencing.
  David

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Harvey,

My experience with the 2000P confirms what you are saying with one very important exception. Try and display those monochrome prints in any light source other than the one you adjusted the print for an the metamerism associated with the 2000P is so severe to make the print useless. Otherwise, everyone would be using 2000P's and piggies.

Mike

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim,

I use Hahnemuhle Torchon, William Turner, German Etching, and Photo Rag. Right now my favorite is William Turner and Photo Rag. For large prints 24"x24" I love Torchon, but the texture is a bit too much for small prints. I mostly buy the papers from my local dealer in 37"x47 sheets. If I commit to at least 10 packs of 25 sheets, they will stock them for me and give me a substantial dicscount. They have a few other photographers that commit to 10-20 packs so in essence they can order in 50-100 pack orders.

The paper becomes very reasonable in price when purchased large and cut down as needed. If I need a small amount I purchase from MediaStreet.Com, very good prices and very nice people.

Yes, I have printed the duotone purple that you mentioned. The results are very nice, but I still get just a bit of crossover in the highlights.

Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: tyork1946 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 5:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] re: selenium toning


  Mike 
  Which Hahnemuhle papers do you use and where do you get them? Have 
  you tried the canned duotone in PS6 that gives a very respectable 
  selenium-toned print? It is the last duotone of the black/purple.

  Tim






  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
  <michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
  > David,
  > 
  > I hear your frustration.
  > 
  > CDT made my profiles for me as well. After the pigment ink wound up 
  on the floor, my desk and the wall, I loaded the Epson 1280 dyes. I 
  profiled them myself with Profiler Pro and my scanner. I get lovely 
  prints with great color balance. 



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael, it sounds like you're in agreement with me, thanks.  95% of my printing is b&w, I just like the convenience to be able to print color, or sepia, or a "toned" looking print.
I sent Jerry a few prints to examine, because I was so pleased at the way the MIS dyes are looking in b&w, without even a custom profile.  If you'd like a look, as Jerry to forward them on to you to see.
David

Harvey, thanks for your advice, but I'm new at this, and don't really know how to make the adjustments that you call for.  I would guess that there is a way to smooth out the steps of a gray scale, but technically, I just depended on a professional profile to do that.  I am not in a position to modify that profile at this point in time.
Not being terribly technically oriented, I just way to make pictures, not tests.
I used to print only on portriga, and selenium tone.  That kind of print doesn't look like the traditional cool toned, purplish print.  I'm not looking for a dead neutral, its just that I could'nt get smooth transitional tones, and sometimes a bit of posterization.  With the dyes, everything is easy.
David

Jeff, I'm not noticing any metamerism with the MIS dyes.
David

David,
 What MIS color inkset are you using? Is there any idea of longevity 
with this set as compared to Epson? By your post it sounds like we 
are doing the same thing for similar reasons (re: color inkset). 
Would it be possible to see a sample of your prints so I can compare 
them to what I'm doing? I would gladly re-imburse you for any mailing 
costs and return them to you. Also which papers are you using? I 
shoot mostly intimate landscapes as opposed to grand landscapes and 
nature abstracts.

Tim









--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., daschkenas@a... wrote:
> Michael, it sounds like you're in agreement with me, thanks.  95% 
of my printing is b&w, I just like the convenience to be able to 
print color, or sepia, or a "toned" looking print.
> I sent Jerry a few prints to examine, because I was so pleased at 
the way the MIS dyes are looking in b&w, without even a custom 
profile.  If you'd like a look, as Jerry to forward them on to you to 
see.
> David

Michael, I'm using a 1280.  I am flatbed scanning b&w prints in RGB reflective. After a minor amount of burning, dodging etc, contrast etc.  I am desaturating, then in color balance I will add + 2 or 3 midtone magenta, and sometimes +1 or 2 to the shadow of magenta.  I am set on Heavyweight matte, 1440, in the advanced mode, "color controls" all set at zero. Profile is Adobe RGB.
I'm printing on LPM or SEV.
David

Jeff,

Epson dyes and I believe dyes in general do not exibit metamerism to any great extent. I think that all color materials exhibit some metamerism , but most are so slight that it is not a problem.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Magidson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 6:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] re: selenium toning




  Michael Kravit wrote:
  > 
  > David,
  > 
  > I hear your frustration.
  > 
  > CDT made my profiles for me as well. After the pigment ink wound up on the floor, my desk and the wall, I loaded the Epson 1280 dyes. I profiled them myself with Profiler Pro and my scanner. I get lovely prints with great color balance.
  > 
  > I do very little color printing and as such for six months I was very frustrated with the output. I would try adjustments in Photoshop and everything else I could think of. Finally with the profiles and dyes I get the prints I always thought I could get.
  > 
  > If the Epson dyes give me 26 years under glass, I can live with that. I am printing on BrightCube Eclipse and Hahnemuhle papers. So far, I am very pleased with the results.
  > 
  > Mike

  Mike & or David;

  What amount of Metamerism are you getting with the MIS or Epson Dyes?

  Thanks,

  -Jeff

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David,

What setting are you using to obtain the results you are getting?

Perhaps I am using a different paper setting or a different color setting?

Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: daschkenas@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 7:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] re: selenium toning


  Michael, it sounds like you're in agreement with me, thanks.  95% of my printing is b&w, I just like the convenience to be able to print color, or sepia, or a "toned" looking print.
  I sent Jerry a few prints to examine, because I was so pleased at the way the MIS dyes are looking in b&w, without even a custom profile.  If you'd like a look, as Jerry to forward them on to you to see.
  David

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

They're both excellent inks, but you MUST get your printer profiled if
you want to make black and white prints witht them. If you don't, some
colors will have a color tone in them. If you get a proper profile, you
can do this with either inkset.

Jerry

tyork1946 wrote:

> 
> I am finally using up my oem inks with my 1280 and want to start
> using 3rd party pigment inks. With all the inksets I don't know which
> to choose. I want a color pigment inkset that will allow me to print
> a selenium-toned b/w image with good longevity. I was thinking of MIS
> inks but they have so many inksets I don't know which one to choose.
> The other was Gen4 which has good longevity and is well thought of
> but I don't know of anyone using them for selenium-toned b/w prints.
> Any help would be most appreciated thank you.
> 
> Tim
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I got a CD Tobie profile, and am able to make excellent black and white
prints with MIS COLOR pigmented Archival inks. They have an ever so
slightly different "look" than quads, but they're identical for most uses.

Jerry

daschkenas@... wrote:

> 
> Keep in mind when switching to a pigment ink set, things change dramatically.  Even with a professional profile, I don't believe that you will ever get a print to look like that of a dye ink set.  I switched from epson oem carts to a CIS with MIS pigs, color inkset, and never got what I consider to be a satisfying b&w print.  Either abrupt tonal gradations of posterization, there was always a problem.  I wasted a couple hundred sheets of paper trying to make it work, but was unable.  I switched back to MIS color dyes with the CIS, and have been printing beautiful b&w images without any disapointment.
> So I'm just warning you. once you go to pigs, everything changes.  As CDTobie said to me when he made my profiles, some pigment ink & paper combinations can only do so much, don't expect it to look like the oem carts with dyes.
> Just my 2 cents.
> David
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

David, are you using the full set of MIS dyes, or just the black?  And
if it's jut the black, which of the multitude of MIS inksets are you
using with it?

Jerry



daschkenas@... wrote:

> 
> Michael, it sounds like you're in agreement with me, thanks.  95% of my printing is b&w, I just like the convenience to be able to print color, or sepia, or a "toned" looking print.
> I sent Jerry a few prints to examine, because I was so pleased at the way the MIS dyes are looking in b&w, without even a custom profile.  If you'd like a look, as Jerry to forward them on to you to see.
> David
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

How long are the MIS DYE inks supposed to last before fading? (not under
glass, just normal useage.)

Jerry




daschkenas@... wrote:

> 
> Jeff, I'm not noticing any metamerism with the MIS dyes.
> David
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
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> 
> 
> 
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Tim, send me your address I will put a couple of samples in the mail to you.
David

Jerry, I'm using the full set of MIS dyes, the ones they consider the 
equivalent of the oem carts, a 6 bottle, 4oz. set is only $48.00.  I've 
already printed about 125, 13 x 19 prints and the bottles are'nt even have 
empty.  I don't know how many sets of carts I would have gone thru by now, at 
least 8 to 10 would be my guess.
David

Hi David,
Thank you for your kindness. My address is:

Timothy York
33 Edgecombe Cres.
Dartmouth, N.S.
B2V 2A7






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., daschkenas@a... wrote:
> Tim, send me your address I will put a couple of samples in the 
mail to you.
> David

Hi Jerry,
Happy New Year bud. Please forgive my ignorance but how do you 
profile a printer and what is a profile? I have been using my 1280 
with the HWM setting for Torchon,Eclipse satine and EAM. I am still 
not completely happy with my papers. I would like to find one like 
Torchon but with a little less texture. The Eclipse satine is nice 
but not quite enough texture for me although I like the weight (308).
 Jerry you are a great resource and I always appreciate your imput.

Tim










--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> They're both excellent inks, but you MUST get your printer profiled 
if
> you want to make black and white prints witht them. If you don't, 
some
> colors will have a color tone in them. If you get a proper profile, 
you

> can do this with either inkset.
> 
> Jerry

Tim ("tyork1946" <tyork@...>) wrote in a thread about inksets:

>[snip] I shoot mostly intimate landscapes as opposed to grand landscapes and
>nature abstracts. [snip]

and I hope Tim and others will post about how their print 
sizes/formats vary from one sort of subject to another if there is in 
fact any such relationship.

As an economy, I want to be able to mount, mat, and frame my own 
prints. But, also as an economy, I haven't much room to do it in. So 
I'm wondering whether some sorts of images lend themselves more 
naturally to relatively small formats? Or whether format is instead 
largely a result of other considerations?

Thanks.

Sam McCandless        <samcc@...>