Digital BW, The Print

Hi Folks,

I use QTR regularly for B&W but need to print color from time to time.
Can anyone recommend a good RIP for the 2200?

I've been looking at the Wasach RIP. Anyone use this one?

Thanks

Jules

Unless you have some very specific unusual needs, good profiles and
Epson driver really do take care of most things with a printer that size.
I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with the Wasach, only StudioPrint. Even with
it, I'd wonder about investing in that software for a desktop printer.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999"
<lulalake_1999@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I use QTR regularly for B&W but need to print color from time to time.
> Can anyone recommend a good RIP for the 2200?
> 
> I've been looking at the Wasach RIP. Anyone use this one?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jules
>

I'd agree with Tyler.  I own ImagePrint and have tried ColorBurst, 
StudioPrint and a few others with my 2200.  Most RIPs either do not 
support the 2200, or do so grudgingly, since it is not 
a "professional" series printer.  Apparently, some of the features 
are not easily addressable by a RIP, or so some of the RIP 
manufacturers claim.  Besides, the Epson driver with a good custom 
profile does a superb job on most papers.  There may be a few papers 
that need more precise ink limiting and linearization, but they 
should be few.

I recommend a custom RGB profile with the Epson driver.  It does a 
better job than ImagePrint (with or without a custom profile), and 
besides, ImagePrint is very expensive for what you are getting.  Save 
your money for some new toys!

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> Unless you have some very specific unusual needs, good profiles and
> Epson driver really do take care of most things with a printer that 
size.
> I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with the Wasach, only StudioPrint. Even 
with
> it, I'd wonder about investing in that software for a desktop 
printer.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999"
> <lulalake_1999@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Folks,
> > 
> > I use QTR regularly for B&W but need to print color from time to 
time.

> > Can anyone recommend a good RIP for the 2200?
> > 
> > I've been looking at the Wasach RIP. Anyone use this one?
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Jules
> >
>

lulalake_1999 wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I use QTR regularly for B&W but need to print color from time to time.
> Can anyone recommend a good RIP for the 2200?
> 
> I've been looking at the Wasach RIP. Anyone use this one?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jules

I have the Wastach SoftRip 4.5  but hardly use it. Only on 
canvas and for odd experiments. Sometimes you can do things 
better that way but it often is more work.
Qimage + the Epson driver is just easier and in some aspects 
better. If you need to process Postscript files then use Adobe 
software for rasterisation.

Ernst

-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

My $.02 worth would suggest getting a package like PrintFix Pro to
creae printer profiles, so that if and when you acquire another
printer you could do it for that one also. In addition to color
profiles, the software can also be used with the Spectro qlong with
Qtr to make ink/paper curves for BW. 

Your friend in photography,

Johnny Eades



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Dina"
<lbdina@...> wrote:

>
> I'd agree with Tyler.  I own ImagePrint and have tried ColorBurst, 
> StudioPrint and a few others with my 2200.  Most RIPs either do not 
> support the 2200, or do so grudgingly, since it is not 
> a "professional" series printer.  Apparently, some of the features 
> are not easily addressable by a RIP, or so some of the RIP 
> manufacturers claim.  Besides, the Epson driver with a good custom 
> profile does a superb job on most papers.  There may be a few papers 
> that need more precise ink limiting and linearization, but they 
> should be few.
> 
> I recommend a custom RGB profile with the Epson driver.  It does a 
> better job than ImagePrint (with or without a custom profile), and 
> besides, ImagePrint is very expensive for what you are getting.  Save 
> your money for some new toys!
> 
> Lou
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> > Unless you have some very specific unusual needs, good profiles and
> > Epson driver really do take care of most things with a printer that 
> size.
> > I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with the Wasach, only StudioPrint. Even 
> with
> > it, I'd wonder about investing in that software for a desktop 
> printer.
> > Tyler
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999"
> > <lulalake_1999@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Folks,
> > > 
> > > I use QTR regularly for B&W but need to print color from time to 
> time.
> > > Can anyone recommend a good RIP for the 2200?
> > > 
> > > I've been looking at the Wasach RIP. Anyone use this one?
> > > 
> > > Thanks
> > > 
> > > Jules
> > >
> >
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> lulalake_1999 wrote:
> > Hi Folks,
> > 
> > I use QTR regularly for B&W but need to print color from time to 
time.
> > Can anyone recommend a good RIP for the 2200?
> > 
> > I've been looking at the Wasach RIP. Anyone use this one?
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Jules
> 
> I have the Wastach SoftRip 4.5  but hardly use it. Only on 
> canvas and for odd experiments. Sometimes you can do things 
> better that way but it often is more work.
> Qimage + the Epson driver is just easier and in some aspects 
> better. If you need to process Postscript files then use Adobe 
> software for rasterisation.
> 
> Ernst

Hi Ernst,
Yeah, I do print a lot on canvas but Qimage looks real good. Thanks 
for the tip.

Jules

I have used Wasatch SoftRIP for almost a year now but only on my HP
Designjet 30 which is the smallest HP printer they support. I
purchased it so I can use more media on the HP that Epson can support
rather easily.

Wasatch can produce amazing results but the learning curve can be
steep.  Since my printer profiling solution is an RGB only Gretag i1
Photo, Wasatch definitely came to the rescue when I tried to use some
of my favorite Epson media on the HP.

With Wasatch I get significantly better results than even HP's own
paper/ink combination which is already pretty amazing. This I didn't
realize after I "successfully" made a profile via Wasatch and placed
the prints side by side.

Wasatch's power is in its separation rules engine which allows you to
perform very sophisticated ink limitting. But it was this rules engine
that took me a long time to learn.

Will Wasatch work with the Epson 2200? I don't know. Will I recommend
Wasatch? I'm hesitant as I know it has a VERY steep learning curve.
But armed with Wasatch I know I'm getting the kind of output that
otherwise would be impossible.

--nick

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999"
<lulalake_1999@...> wrote:

> I use QTR regularly for B&W but need to print color from
> time to time. Can anyone recommend a good RIP for the
> 2200? I've been looking at the Wasach RIP. Anyone use this
> one?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nick H. Nugent" 
<nghin@...> wrote:
Well, what I learned about the Wasatch softrip kept me from buying 
it. When I contacted them, they said it could not change the point 
where the light ink mixes with the full ink, and that you could not 
chage how much light ink was used to mix with the full ink. And also 
that you could not take a 6 (or more) ink printer, and change the 
configuration to make something like a multi grey plus CMY inkset. 
They said it had something to do with the way the dither was 
designed. What this means is that you are limited to inks that offer 
a similar performance to the OEM inks for that printer.

This was of course the official statement from the manufacturer, so 
there might be hacks that can be performed to make it different.

Unfortunately, there are few choices for a RIP for the 2200, and the 
few that there are do not offer great flexibility. You can try the 
RIP from iproofsystems and see if it does what you need.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> Well, what I learned about the Wasatch softrip kept me
> from buying it. When I contacted them, they said it could
> not change the point where the light ink mixes with the
> full ink, and that you could not chage how much light ink
> was used to mix with the full ink. And also that you could
> not take a 6 (or more) ink printer, and change the
> configuration to make something like a multi grey plus CMY
> inkset. They said it had something to do with the way the
> dither was designed. What this means is that you are
> limited to inks that offer a similar performance to the
> OEM inks for that printer.

All correct. I did ask them something about why they treat
my 6-ink printer like a 4-ink printer and I think I got
the same answer. But at that time my concern was more
about color printing than black and white so I went for
it anyway.

But is there a full RIP out there that works like QTR?
For color I think Wasatch works great if one knows how to
use it.

Out of curiosity I took a look at the PowerRIP at iproofsystems and
it looks like PowerRIP X or 2000 may fit the bill at a much lower
price.

--nick

Nick H. Nugent wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
> <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>> Well, what I learned about the Wasatch softrip kept me
>> from buying it. When I contacted them, they said it could
>> not change the point where the light ink mixes with the
>> full ink, and that you could not chage how much light ink
>> was used to mix with the full ink. And also that you could
>> not take a 6 (or more) ink printer, and change the
>> configuration to make something like a multi grey plus CMY
>> inkset. They said it had something to do with the way the
>> dither was designed. What this means is that you are
>> limited to inks that offer a similar performance to the
>> OEM inks for that printer.
> 
> All correct. I did ask them something about why they treat
> my 6-ink printer like a 4-ink printer and I think I got
> the same answer. But at that time my concern was more
> about color printing than black and white so I went for
> it anyway.
> 
> But is there a full RIP out there that works like QTR?
> For color I think Wasatch works great if one knows how to
> use it.
> 
> Out of curiosity I took a look at the PowerRIP at iproofsystems and
> it looks like PowerRIP X or 2000 may fit the bill at a much lower
> price.
> 
> --nick

Greg, Nick,

The transfer  points for the LC>C and LM>M and on the 9600 etc 
LK>K can be shifted, that has been available before I got the 
Wasatch SoftRip 5 years ago. The amount of light ink where it 
should switch to the full ink could be based on the 
linearisation curve of the C,M,K channels + the extra 
correction curves, but that is a trial and error system. 
Wasatch very much expects a harmonic inkset. Strange enough it 
could have been added to the separation rules engine where 
there are other tools to correct mismatches in the inkset 
(like the CMY shift possible at the bottom of the separation 
rules page).

The main limitation has been that it is very much a 4 channel 
CMYK RIP for the printers that WasatchInc considers CMYK or 
CcMmYK or CcMmYK(kk). So linearisation is done over the 4 
channels which could mean 2 or 3 inks are linearised  in one 
channel, Kkk for example, For CMYK(O)R(G)B printers etc they 
have separate drivers with linearisation per channel but you 
can't drive an Epson  that got CMYKOG inks instead of CcMmYK 
with it. Nor Quad inks though I was able to get a 9000 running 
UT inks with the Wasatch SoftRip and some weird thinking about 
ink positions, greyscale files disguised as CMYK, correction 
curves and linearisation curves. I was happy though when QTR 
became available.

I have asked WasatchInc to look for some additions to drive 
quad inks several years ago and put that request again when I 
upgraded to version 4.5 (the one that got the separation rules 
engine + the 3d profile viewer). They are not interested in 
odd inksets for CMYKetc printers. I also believe that they do 
not see photography as their core market. All the developments 
have been towards sign, textile, prepress film for silkscreen 
printing, data transfer through the internet, etc. To be 
honest I do not understand that, a much larger market is in 
photography and few additions would put good B&W printing on 
the menu too. That said the Epson K3 models should make it 
more easy to achieve that with the RIP as it has at least the 
Kkk linearisation.

My guess is that with many RIPs you will see similar 
limitations. There's a strong believe in the use of good 
profiling to get neutral prints, in their view good enough for 
B&W printing. Along with that all greyscale files will go 
through the K channel so become BO prints. When the K3 
printers were announced I asked on the Colorsync list whether 
there would be an extra possibility added to the RIPs to send 
a greyscale file through the Kkk lines and add some toning for 
hue or neutrality. Like the Epson K3 driver has. It was 
totally ignored or I got the "you want good profiling" replies.

Ernst
-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Ernst, as usual, thank you. Now Nick, if you step up to a larger 
Ultrachrome printer, then you get a few more options. Postershop can 
be configured with multiple gray inks to make a 4kCMY machine (or at 
least the sales person assures me that they can.) I could never get 
the demo working properly, so I was never able to try it for even 
normal inks. Also the Evolution RIP can do the same, and it should be 
able to do a 3KCMY with the 9/9500 soon, I need to ask them about 
that again before my year or service expires. And StudioPrint can do 
the same. But for the 2200, there really isn't that much out there. 
Most people can't see the value of putting a $500+ RIP on a printer 
that small, so they limit the R&D needed to the larger market. 
Stepping up to a 4000 opens many options.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nick H. Nugent" <nghin@...> 
wrote:
snip...
> But is there a full RIP out there that works like QTR?

My understanding is that someone with the dedication and talent of Roy, but with a dogged 
interest in color, could put an interface on top of Gutenprint that would do most things many 
of us want.
Obviously linearizations, limiting, light ink crossovers, etc. can be controlled in this thing. It 
just needs to be bent to our will.
Even if it's not icc aware, profile conversions could be handled in the Adobe print controls, or 
with other tools like Qimage.
The B&W community benifited mightily because some some obsessive and knowledgeable 
B&W individual took it upon himself to tackle the problem.
This is like most issues, there's not enough money in it I suspect.
In fact, I suspect QTR was a bigger challenge than CMYK would be, or CMYKxx...?
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> interest in color, could put an interface on top of Gutenprint that 
would do most things many 
> of us want.


iproofsystems did, and the Evolution is also (probably) built on it. 
That and OPM for the layout features, and add in little CMS for the 
color handling. Maybe need a few more tools from icc.org for the 
color handling. Makes it all sound kind of easy doesn't it?