Digital BW, The Print

Hi all... I've just gotten a 2400 and am using it to print on Innova F-type Gloss.  I've made 
QTR-Create-ICC profiles.  Etc.  

The default ABW setting, Darker, seems.... dark.  Any thoughts on why that's the default?  
And what are most of you using who are doing K3 ABW printing?

Ed

Hello Ed,

>Hi all... I've just gotten a 2400 and am using it to print on Innova 
>F-type Gloss.  I've made QTR-Create-ICC profiles.  Etc.  
> 
>The default ABW setting, Darker, seems.... dark.  Any thoughts on why 
>that's the default?  And what are most of you using who are doing K3 
>ABW printing?

I use the Light setting.  It seems to be the equivalent of printer
gamma 1.8 in the driver's color control mode.  Darker is closer
to gamma 2.2.

I think it's the default because the gray space and image profile
default is more likely to be GG2.2, and they work well together.  But
I get much more open shadows in the print using DG20 for the front end
and printer gamma 1.8 (or Light with the 2400), so I use that.  It
doesn't hurt anything to not use the default, but everything has a
trade-off.  You just have to find the combination of settings that you
like the best.  

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Ed

Given you are using QTR ICC Profiles any Adv B&W luminance settings (ie most
of the settings) will be reversed out by the profile use.  The only issue
that arises is whether you can get reasonable stimulus-response observations
to create the profile in the first place.  I recall a while back that you or
others had issues with Adv B&W showing reversals in the black end on some
non-Epson papers, this being most likely an ink limit issue.  Personally I
have not experienced this to any real extent with my 4800 using 51 samples
for the profile.  My display (EyeOne Match profiled using the PM5 LCD target
reference file) to print match is very very good.  PS is a better editor of
an image than the Epson driver!!

The point of printing should not be to open (ie edit in an active way) the
shadows in an image but rather to render them as appropriately as possible -
ie to reflect the edits you have done to the image file in PS.  In many
respects it is a bit of a nonsense to say, when you are using a luminance
managed approach such as with QTR ICC profiles, that you get more open
shadows with one setting over another.  What you want is the degree of
"openness" you have edited into the image, period.  To do that you want good
management via a good luminance profile of the file to print transform.  I
would take a look at your profiles - and remember that you'll need a profile
for each group of settings you use.  I leave all the Adv B&W settings other
than the hue picker at their default and profile that output with 51
observations (far more than you would typically do for colour).  My print to
soft-proof display match is very good and I am extremely happy with the
output.

Cheers

Steve

PS: one thing to check is your print viewing conditions.  You can use your
EyeOne to measure the amount and colour temp of light falling on your print
at your workspace.  Of course if you room is not well lit versus the light
being emitted by your display then the prints will appear darker.

> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:48:18 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ABW users:  which ABW setting do you use?
> 
> Hello Ed,
> 
>> Hi all... I've just gotten a 2400 and am using it to print on Innova
>> F-type Gloss.  I've made QTR-Create-ICC profiles.  Etc.
>> 
>> The default ABW setting, Darker, seems.... dark.  Any thoughts on why
>> that's the default?  And what are most of you using who are doing K3
>> ABW printing?
> 
> I use the Light setting.  It seems to be the equivalent of printer
> gamma 1.8 in the driver's color control mode.  Darker is closer
> to gamma 2.2.
> 
> I think it's the default because the gray space and image profile
> default is more likely to be GG2.2, and they work well together.  But
> I get much more open shadows in the print using DG20 for the front end
> and printer gamma 1.8 (or Light with the 2400), so I use that.  It
> doesn't hurt anything to not use the default, but everything has a
> trade-off.  You just have to find the combination of settings that you
> like the best.  
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton

Hi Steve...  thanks for the reply.  I tried a profile using the 51 step wedge the other day 
and got a very nice profile from it, with no reversals in the lowlights.  Very well-defined 
steps.  I was also going to give the 4x21 tif a try.

I think that the viewing environment in my workroom is definitely a weakness, but in the 
past, using matte papers, that's not been a problem:  i.e., I could easily make the mental 
adjustments necessary to "see what I was going to get."  However, now that I've started 
using some glossy papers, the match seems potentially so much better, that the viewing 
environment becomes more of a factor.

Again, thanks for the reply.

Ed

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:

>
> Ed
> 
> Given you are using QTR ICC Profiles any Adv B&W luminance settings (ie most
> of the settings) will be reversed out by the profile use.  The only issue
> that arises is whether you can get reasonable stimulus-response observations
> to create the profile in the first place.  I recall a while back that you or
> others had issues with Adv B&W showing reversals in the black end on some
> non-Epson papers, this being most likely an ink limit issue.  Personally I
> have not experienced this to any real extent with my 4800 using 51 samples
> for the profile.  My display (EyeOne Match profiled using the PM5 LCD target
> reference file) to print match is very very good.  PS is a better editor of
> an image than the Epson driver!!
> 
> The point of printing should not be to open (ie edit in an active way) the
> shadows in an image but rather to render them as appropriately as possible -
> ie to reflect the edits you have done to the image file in PS.  In many
> respects it is a bit of a nonsense to say, when you are using a luminance
> managed approach such as with QTR ICC profiles, that you get more open
> shadows with one setting over another.  What you want is the degree of
> "openness" you have edited into the image, period.  To do that you want good
> management via a good luminance profile of the file to print transform.  I
> would take a look at your profiles - and remember that you'll need a profile
> for each group of settings you use.  I leave all the Adv B&W settings other
> than the hue picker at their default and profile that output with 51
> observations (far more than you would typically do for colour).  My print to
> soft-proof display match is very good and I am extremely happy with the
> output.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve
> 
> PS: one thing to check is your print viewing conditions.  You can use your
> EyeOne to measure the amount and colour temp of light falling on your print
> at your workspace.  Of course if you room is not well lit versus the light
> being emitted by your display then the prints will appear darker.

One other note, maybe of interest.  After printing 21-step wedges for the Dark and for the 
Norm and for the Light settings, and examining the Measure Tool text files, the Norm and 
Light ABW settings gave very linear L values.  The Dark setting gave L values with marked 
drop off in the last three steps.

Ed

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@> 
wrote:
> >
I recall a while back that you or
> > others had issues with Adv B&W showing reversals in the black end on some
> > non-Epson papers, this being most likely an ink limit issue.

Profiling a linear device will be better so I'd use either the Norm or Light
setting (both for printing the test chart for profiling and on an on-going
basis) and create an ICC profile using that data.

> From: edrudolpho <erudolph@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:51:26 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ABW users:  which ABW setting do you use?
> 
> One other note, maybe of interest.  After printing 21-step wedges for the Dark
> and for the 
> Norm and for the Light settings, and examining the Measure Tool text files,
> the Norm and 
> Light ABW settings gave very linear L values.  The Dark setting gave L values
> with marked 
> drop off in the last three steps.
> 
> Ed

I meant to add that remember linear L* output generally is not visually
pleasing, especially on matte papers where the black end is weak.  Remember
this was the genesis of QTR Create ICC.  Even though Quadtone RIP could be
linearised, the output could look "flat" and "lighter than on screen". (I
don't think I need to go through all that again.)  Nonetheless,
"calibrating" for linearity is good practice before "profiling" because
profiles necessarily involve interpolation.  So ideally you would profile
the printer with settings that place it in its most linear state and then
let the profile/CMM do the necessary Perceptual tonal management (which
involves some compression of shadows and highlights to fit the image into
the narrower tonal range of ink on paper much as what happens on your
display).

Cheers

Steve

> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:09:11 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Conversation: [Digital BW] Re: ABW users:  which ABW setting do you use?
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW users:  which ABW setting do you use?
> 
> Profiling a linear device will be better so I'd use either the Norm or Light
> setting (both for printing the test chart for profiling and on an on-going
> basis) and create an ICC profile using that data.
> 
> 
>> From: edrudolpho <erudolph@...>
>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:51:26 -0000
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ABW users:  which ABW setting do you use?
>> 
>> One other note, maybe of interest.  After printing 21-step wedges for the
>> Dark
>> and for the 
>> Norm and for the Light settings, and examining the Measure Tool text files,
>> the Norm and 
>> Light ABW settings gave very linear L values.  The Dark setting gave L values
>> with marked 
>> drop off in the last three steps.
>> 
>> Ed

Steve,

My recollection is that in the past you've advocated using the ABW
default "darker" setting.  Have you changed your mind, and if so -
why?  Or has something else changed - or is my memory at fault?!

Steve Gledhill
http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@...> wrote:
>
> Profiling a linear device will be better so I'd use either the Norm
or Light
> setting (both for printing the test chart for profiling and on an
on-going
> basis) and create an ICC profile using that data.
> 
> 
> > From: edrudolpho <erudolph@...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:51:26 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ABW users:  which ABW setting do you use?
> > 
> > One other note, maybe of interest.  After printing 21-step wedges
for the Dark
> > and for the 
> > Norm and for the Light settings, and examining the Measure Tool
text files,
> > the Norm and 
> > Light ABW settings gave very linear L values.  The Dark setting
gave L values

> > with marked 
> > drop off in the last three steps.
> > 
> > Ed
>

I have no problem profiling it in the default setting and that is what I
use.  I think Ed was using a 2400.  Either way I have no issues with the
default and have enough observations in the profile so I'm happy.

> From: Steve Gledhill <stephengledhill@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:34:03 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ABW users:  which ABW setting do you use?
> 
> Steve,
> 
> My recollection is that in the past you've advocated using the ABW
> default "darker" setting.  Have you changed your mind, and if so -
> why?  Or has something else changed - or is my memory at fault?!
> 
> Steve Gledhill
> http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@...> wrote:
>> 
>> Profiling a linear device will be better so I'd use either the Norm
> or Light
>> setting (both for printing the test chart for profiling and on an
> on-going
>> basis) and create an ICC profile using that data.
>> 
>> 
>>> From: edrudolpho <erudolph@...>
>>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:51:26 -0000
>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ABW users:  which ABW setting do you use?
>>> 
>>> One other note, maybe of interest.  After printing 21-step wedges
> for the Dark
>>> and for the 
>>> Norm and for the Light settings, and examining the Measure Tool
> text files,
>>> the Norm and 
>>> Light ABW settings gave very linear L values.  The Dark setting
> gave L values
>>> with marked 
>>> drop off in the last three steps.
>>> 
>>> Ed

Steve,

Picking up an old thread for some questions:

I'm seriously interested in the HP Z3100 and would like to use 
your B&W workflow with that machine. If possible with Qimage. 
I do expect more similarities between its Advanced B&W mode 
and that of the Epson K3's than that there are differences 
between the two. There's probably one advantage, the Z3100 
internal calibration works on the grey ink channels too and it 
takes only 10 minutes to get that done.

I'm correct on this ?: The QTR ICC profile to convert to is 
made with the 51 target on the neutral default settings in the 
ABW driver. You do a P2P in Photoshop on a greyscale ? or 
monochrome RGB image?. The file is then brought to the ABW 
driver and only the hue slider is shifted for the toning you 
wish.

My first question is how much the hue selection shifts the 
tonal curve. It all probably stays within a very small gamut 
but I'm curious whether it limits the degree of saturation 
possible. I'm no advocate for complexity but could there be a 
reason to use more targets printed each with different hue 
settings and use an average profile made from the three 
measurements instead of one from the neutral setting ? The 3 - 
4 hue settings selected halfway the maximum toning you would 
use in practice. And Green target excluded.

The next thing is: how well does the hue slider cope with 
color toning from paper color to carbon black ? Is there a 
shift in hue over that range for the cooler prints (which will 
be the most difficult on this issue) ? Of course you can 
select a paper that at least fits the cooler image better but 
that still leaves the warmer black ink to adapt to. I wonder 
whether Epson did compensate a bit of that in the ABW driver. 
As far as I know the Z3100 grey inks are more neutral than 
Epson's K3's but I have to ask that again.

I think Qimage allows the use of color management along with 
the Epson ABW driver. A monochrome RGB file then could get its 
P2P QTR profile right before the ABW driver and Photoshop 
isn't needed for the printing stage.


Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


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