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Print Editions - Eloquent Statement

Print Editions - Eloquent Statement

2006-05-15 by Clayton Jones

Hello All,

The most eloquent statement on this subject that I've ever read is by
Brooks Jenson, editor of Lenswork magazine.  Here's a link to it

 http://artshowphoto.com/pages/whatsizetheedition.htm


You can also download it in pdf form from this page on his web site

 http://www.brooksjensenarts.com/catalog01.htm


I know many long-timers are familiar with it, but it's worth
mentioning now and then for the benefit of any readers who haven't
seen it.  I reread it now and then and always gain new insights.  

IMO, it is one of the more significant contributions he has made to to
the world of Fine Art BW Photography.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Print Editions - Eloquent Statement

2006-05-15 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@...> wrote:
> 
> You can also download it in pdf form from this page on his web site
> 
>  http://www.brooksjensenarts.com/catalog01.htm
> 
> 


The PDF is no longer linked. Hopefully he will put it back, or correct 
the broken link.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Print Editions - Eloquent Statement

2006-05-15 by Mark Savoia

See here:
http://www.ctphoto.com/whatsizeistheedition.pdf
Mark

On May 15, 2006, at 9:50 AM, Greg wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
> <cj@...> wrote:
> >
> > You can also download it in pdf form from this page on his web site
> >
> >  http://www.brooksjensenarts.com/catalog01.htm
> >
> >
>
>
> The PDF is no longer linked. Hopefully he will put it back, or correct
> the broken link.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Print Editions - Eloquent Statement

2006-05-15 by Tyler Boley

A more in depth writing on the subject is here-
http://www.brooksjensenarts.com/catalog01.htm#editions

I have a great deal of respect for Brooks as not only a voice for high
standards and integrity in photography, but as an artist.
I do however take very slight issue with him about this. I agree with
everything he has to say in the above link, but think the more
simplified pdf makes some assumptions that are not always in play.
I've taken the position that it is possible to work with those whose
interest is primarily sales, and still not fall into a practice that I
would consider misleading.
In other words, because someone does limited editions does not
necessarily mean they are strategically creating artificial scarcity
(to paraphrase Brooks).
We all have to pick our battles, it's an age of compromise unless you
are independently wealthy. I am arrogant enough to think my work has
something to offer and want it to be seen. If I were choosing to take
the highest possible road artistically, I'd make every decision about
it without compromise and I would die with it all in boxes under the
bed in my trailer house. There are those who can do that, I am not one.
Since I came up against this issue time and time again with
gallery/sales people, in fact some were insistent, I decided I would
meet them part way. I pick a high number, I will probably never make
that many prints of a given image in my lifetime, and would be sick of
it if I did. That way, they are numbered, dated etc.., and if some
buyer needs the comfort and chooses to see it as such, limited. Not
terribly different from simple numbering. I know people that literally
do 5, with extraordinary high prices, this is very different.
The roll between artists and sales entities is adversarial enough, and
I need to find ways for us to work together. They don't seem to be
backing down on this issue, so this is what I've settle on for now.
I can't say I'm 100% comfortable with it, but as I said, we have to
pick our battles.
It's hard enough trying to get anyone to look at landscape work these
days...
Your comments are welcome,
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hello All,
> 
> The most eloquent statement on this subject that I've ever read is by
> Brooks Jenson, editor of Lenswork magazine.  Here's a link to it
> 
>  http://artshowphoto.com/pages/whatsizetheedition.htm
> 
> 
> You can also download it in pdf form from this page on his web site
> 
>  http://www.brooksjensenarts.com/catalog01.htm
> 
> 
> I know many long-timers are familiar with it, but it's worth
> mentioning now and then for the benefit of any readers who haven't
> seen it.  I reread it now and then and always gain new insights.  
> 
> IMO, it is one of the more significant contributions he has made to to
> the world of Fine Art BW Photography.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Print Editions - Eloquent Statement

2006-05-16 by elwood@wsnconsult.com

Amen Tyler

So well said

Woody Spedden
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----
From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 3:08:13 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Print Editions - Eloquent Statement

   A more in depth writing on the subject is here-
 http://www.brooksjensenarts.com/catalog01.htm#editions
 
 I have a great deal of respect for Brooks as not only a voice for high
 standards and integrity in photography, but as an artist.
 I do however take very slight issue with him about this. I agree with
 everything he has to say in the above link, but think the more
 simplified pdf makes some assumptions that are not always in play.
 I've taken the position that it is possible to work with those whose
 interest is primarily sales, and still not fall into a practice that I
 would consider misleading.
 In other words, because someone does limited editions does not
 necessarily mean they are strategically creating artificial scarcity
 (to paraphrase Brooks).
 We all have to pick our battles, it's an age of compromise unless you
 are independently wealthy. I am arrogant enough to think my work has
 something to offer and want it to be seen. If I were choosing to take
 the highest possible road artistically, I'd make every decision about
 it without compromise and I would die with it all in boxes under the
 bed in my trailer house. There are those who can do that, I am not one.
 Since I came up against this issue time and time again with
 gallery/sales people, in fact some were insistent, I decided I would
 meet them part way. I pick a high number, I will probably never make
 that many prints of a given image in my lifetime, and would be sick of
 it if I did. That way, they are numbered, dated etc.., and if some
 buyer needs the comfort and chooses to see it as such, limited. Not
 terribly different from simple numbering. I know people that literally
 do 5, with extraordinary high prices, this is very different.
 The roll between artists and sales entities is adversarial enough, and
 I need to find ways for us to work together. They don't seem to be
 backing down on this issue, so this is what I've settle on for now.
 I can't say I'm 100% comfortable with it, but as I said, we have to
 pick our battles.
 It's hard enough trying to get anyone to look at landscape work these
 days...
 Your comments are welcome,
 Tyler
 
 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
 <cj@...> wrote:
 >
 > Hello All,
 > 
 > The most eloquent statement on this subject that I've ever read is by
 > Brooks Jenson, editor of Lenswork magazine.  Here's a link to it
 > 
 >  http://artshowphoto.com/pages/whatsizetheedition.htm
 > 
 > 
 > You can also download it in pdf form from this page on his web site
 > 
 >  http://www.brooksjensenarts.com/catalog01.htm
 > 
 > 
 > I know many long-timers are familiar with it, but it's worth
 > mentioning now and then for the benefit of any readers who haven't
 > seen it.  I reread it now and then and always gain new insights.  
 > 
 > IMO, it is one of the more significant contributions he has made to to
 > the world of Fine Art BW Photography.
 > 
 > Regards,
 > Clayton
 > 
 > 
 > Info on black and white digital printing at    
 > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
 >
 
 
 
 
 
     

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
 
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 Please follow these basic guidelines:
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 - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Print Editions - Eloquent Statement

2006-05-16 by Clayton Jones

Hello Tyler,

>I have a great deal of respect for Brooks as not only a voice for 
>high standards and integrity in photography, but as an artist.
>I do however take very slight issue with him about this. 
>...because someone does limited editions does not necessarily mean 
>they are strategically creating artificial scarcity...
>...gallery/sales people...some were insistent, I decided I would
>meet them part way. I pick a high number...

Very good point.  As usual you bring a mature and balanced viewpoint
to our discussions.


>The roll between artists and sales entities is adversarial enough, 

Did you mean "roll", or "role"?  (not trying to be your 7th grade
English teacher, just want to be sure of your meaning <g>)


>...need to find ways for us to work together. They don't seem to 
>be backing down on this issue, so this is what I've settle on for 
>now.  I can't say I'm 100% comfortable with it, but as I said, we 
>have to pick our battles.

Seems like a very good compromise, but am glad to know you aren't 100%
comfortable with it.


>They don't seem to be backing down on this issue...
>...some buyer needs the comfort...

This seems to be the crux of it: the buck stops (starts?) at the
bottom.  The dealer's position is understandable.  All the pursuation
in the the world on them won't change anything as long as the customer
demands it (although most certainly the dealers have helped create
this customer mind set).  Seems like the only way to break the cycle
is to slowly, over time, educate the buyers.  I want to put some sort
of statement about it on my web site, probably with a link to Brook's
page.  

I find Brook's approach to it (editions, printings, etc) a bit
over-wrought.  I understand and agree with his point that a treatment
of an image can change and therefore can be considered a new edition,
but to actually carry that into a numbering system seems a bit over
the top.  Simple record keeping is already enough of a challenge, that
would make it worse.  But I guess it works for him.

I sometimes experiment with different inks, papers or settings, and
have produced many different but beautiful and worthy variations. 
With Brook's system I would have to have a new edition for each
variant.  I just sequentially number my prints of an image, no matter
what size, ink, or paper.  #4 may be a portfolio print, #5 may be a
wall print, #6 may be a miniature on a different paper.  I use I-Trak
to keep a record of every print and everything about it (#, date,
size, ink, paper, customer name, etc).  If I can manage to leave this
information behind when I leave, it will be available to anyone who
deems something worthy enough to look up.

Brook's approach also seems to eliminate something that may be 
important to a customer: having some sense of where his print fits in
the artist's output.  A print that is labeled #3 of printing #2 of
edition #3 gives no real indication of how many prints have been made
at that point. One would have to look up his records to figure it out.
A simple sequential number, such as #17, tells that very clearly. 
Also, knowing that it's in the 3rd edition implies that it's different
in some way than one in the 1st and 2nd editions, but it doesn't tell
you how it's different.  You would still have to go look up Brook's
records to find out.  So where is the advantage?

If a collector needs bragging rights with his rival, the discussion
down at the club might get pretty convoluted.  A sequential number
approach would keep it simpler.  Also when it's time to place a value
on a print...seems to me that sequential numbering could satisfy those
dealer/collector needs as much as limits.  

As for the "vintage" concept, someone told me yesterday that at a
gallery in L.A., vintage print sales are big, and that "vintage"
prints are defined as prints made during the first 5 years of an image
being shot.   Hmmm...does it make a difference if the artist made
5,000 prints during those first 5 years?   Perhaps with simple
sequential numbering, anything with #10 or less might be considered
more valuable...or maybe just a continuously graduated scale, like
those old Buick hydromatic transmissions...

One of those things that will probably never be resolved to everyone's
satisfaction.  It all seems terribly artificial.  But I suppose
collecting and valuating anything is artificlal.  If there were no
artificial system of valuating things then maybe nobody would buy
anything...at least not as something that would increase in value. 
People would only buy art to enjoy it.  Imagine that.


>It's hard enough trying to get anyone to look at landscape work 
>these days...

Can you elaborate on this, I'm surprised by it. 


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

landscapes and Re: Print Editions

2006-05-16 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:
...
> >The roll between artists and sales entities is adversarial enough,
>
> Did you mean "roll", or "role"?  (not trying to be your 7th grade
> English teacher, just want to be sure of your meaning <g>)

no, roal actually... sorry, you are correct, my writing skills are
preschool level.

...


> I find Brook's approach to it (editions, printings, etc) a bit
> over-wrought.  I understand and agree with his point that a treatment
> of an image can change and therefore can be considered a new edition,

Well, I don't know if I'm breaking some state law, when I finally
decided on what to do my understanding was that I wasn't... but I'm
calling any print any size any type of an image part of the edition,
period. Similarities from press runs and all that are just irrelevant
to photography. I'll bet an edition done in the darkroom all during
the same session never precisely match anyway.. slight dodging/burning
differences, developer temp, toner exhaustion, bla bla. The whole idea
of a perfect match is silly anyway... is it great? Do you like it?
Does the fact that it precisely matches another make it art?
I also agree with Brooks that I will make a better print today than I
did yesterday, at least until senility.

> I sometimes experiment with different inks, papers or settings, and
> have produced many different but beautiful and worthy variations.
> With Brook's system I would have to have a new edition for each
> variant.  I just sequentially number my prints of an image, no matter
> what size, ink, or paper.  #4 may be a portfolio print, #5 may be a
> wall print, #6 may be a miniature on a different paper.

Exactly, we all have to do what works for us, that's what others are
doing and frankly getting away with a lot of crap. 1/2 inch bigger,
new edition? Is that limited?
At a certain point, if our work gets out there, we will develop a
reputation of delivering fine work and business practices with
integrity, or not.

...

>
> If a collector needs bragging rights with his rival, the discussion
> down at the club might get pretty convoluted.

Honestly Clayton, if it gets down to that, I don't think either of us
are the kind of people willing out help them much there <G>

....
> People would only buy art to enjoy it.  Imagine that.

wow, don't know if I dare...
I'm deciding over the years that participation in commerce will always
require some give and take. There are the exceptions, people with
enormous talent the public MUST have, business genius etc..
But I'll bet even Neil Young gave an inch here and there.

>
>
> >It's hard enough trying to get anyone to look at landscape work
> >these days...
>
> Can you elaborate on this, I'm surprised by it.

It just hasn't been hip for quite a while. When I was first learning,
the West coast masters were on all the walls, or even east coast guys
like Tice and Siskind.
I think a lot of bad work followed, and the reaction was that people
and art academia just lost interest in more rocks and trees. The
cultures connection to the land has become less defined as well, and
is in transition.
Here in Seattle I don't recall any major show at the photography
galleries or museums showing significant landscape work in 10 years or
more, I've certainly had trouble getting my work up, while one of my
pieces just went at a charity auction for over 3 times my normal
price, gallery owners present (I know them) giving me the thumbs up
then saying good night and good luck. I hope that didn't sound like a
boast, but to the point. I also don't mean to imply my work deserves
to be up, just that there are willing buyers.
Restaurant walls and festivals are different of course. Paul
Caponigro, probably the most significant living landscape photographer
by anyone's standard, had a show come through but it was an hour away
up in a little gallery in a tourist town, I didn't even hear about it
until it was gone. A non-event apparently.
So, you've got the fact that there are rocks and trees included, the
prints are ink instead of master darkroom prints, it's actually in
focus and not pinhole or garbage dumps or something, and there is a
lack of willingness to create scarcity...
Yikes!
A recipe for success!!

Anybody doing this, you know they must just love it when all is said
and done, or perhaps need therapy.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] landscapes and Re: Print Editions

2006-05-16 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

Tyler Boley wrote:

> Anybody doing this [landscape photography], you know they must just 
> love it when all is said
> and done, or perhaps need therapy.
> Tyler

In my case, both I'm afraid ;-)
--
Bruce Watson

UT2 and UT7

2006-05-17 by aitor Peña Inclán

Hi,
After a lot of clogs problems with my epson 1290. It seems that I have broke
it cleaning it with windex.
I have now a option to buy a epson 2100. I wish to know if some of the UT2
inks are the same of some of the UT7.
The other question is if there is a easy way to refill the carts of the
2100, I mean as easy as the spongeless carts.
regards

RE: [Digital BW] UT2 and UT7

2006-05-17 by Paul Roark

> ... I wish to know if some of the UT2
> inks are the same of some of the UT7.

The black ink, the sepia toner, and the pure carbon midtones are the same.
The cold toners are different.  The carbon midtones are also in different
locations.  In the UT2 inkset they are in the M and LM.  In UT7 (and 3D)
they are in C & LC.


> The other question is if there is a easy way to refill the carts of the
> 2100, I mean as easy as the spongeless carts.
> regards
> 

MIS has easy-refill 2200-2100 carts.  I use ones that have sponges in half
the cart, and a spongeless reservoir in the other half.  They work very
well.  When initially loaded they need to be primed by pulling some ink
through the outlet with a bottom fill adapter.

Good luck with the 2100.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] UT2 and UT7

2006-05-18 by aitor Peña Inclán

Thanks Paul, you are great
To be sure.
Could you fill this

UT2                                  UT7
Cyan............................
Magenta.......................
Light cyan....................
Light magenta..............
Yellow..........................

RE: [Digital BW] UT2 and UT7

2006-05-18 by Paul Roark

Aitor,


> 
> UT2                                  UT7
> Cyan............................  No UT7 equivalent.

> Magenta.......................  The same as UT7 Cyan.

> Light cyan....................   No UT7 equivalent.

> Light magenta..............   The same as UT7 LC

> Yellow....................  The sepia toners (Y) are the same.
> 

What happened with the UT2 to UT7 transition is that the cold toners were
moved to the Cyan channel and the mix for them is a bit different.  If one
wanted to do all the profiling, the UT2 toners would work, but they are
stronger than the UT7 cool toners.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

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