Digital BW, The Print

I have experimented with a number of BW conversion methods, but
regardless of the method, is it desirable to finally save the image as
a mode>grayscale rather than mode>RGB? If so, why?

Thanks.

Rem

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Rem Roberti" 
<remegius@...> wrote:
>
> I have experimented with a number of BW conversion methods, but
> regardless of the method, is it desirable to finally save the image 
as
> a mode>grayscale rather than mode>RGB? If so, why?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Rem

Hi Rem,

It's a bit of personal preference as far as I can see however . .
Unless it's just massive, I keep the image in RGB (even though it 
B&W) until I'm about to print then I make a duplicate and convert to 
20% Dot Gain (save with a unique name) and print that copy using QTR.

That way I have both files to play with.

Jules

I usually keep the RGB version because I do my B&W conversions using 
Channel Mixer layers and I commonly go back to make tweaks...so I 
want to have the RGB available for that purpose.  It is, however, 
much more disk space intensive to keep the RGB version.  I usually 
convert to grayscale just prior to printing to match some of the 
workflow suggestions from this group.  

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999" 
<lulalake_1999@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Rem Roberti" 
> <remegius@> wrote:
> >
> > I have experimented with a number of BW conversion methods, but
> > regardless of the method, is it desirable to finally save the 
image 
> as
> > a mode>grayscale rather than mode>RGB? If so, why?
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > Rem
> 
> Hi Rem,
> 
> It's a bit of personal preference as far as I can see however . .
> Unless it's just massive, I keep the image in RGB (even though it 
> B&W) until I'm about to print then I make a duplicate and convert 
to 
> 20% Dot Gain (save with a unique name) and print that copy using 
QTR.

> 
> That way I have both files to play with.
> 
> Jules
>

If you use Genuine Fractals, you can really shrink those files up a lot.
 
Jeffery Smith
New Orleans, LA
http://www.400tx.com <http://www.400tx.com/> 

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
lulalake_1999
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:09 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Saving as grayscale


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Rem Roberti" 
<remegius@...> wrote:
>
> I have experimented with a number of BW conversion methods, but
> regardless of the method, is it desirable to finally save the image 
as
> a mode>grayscale rather than mode>RGB? If so, why?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Rem

Hi Rem,

It's a bit of personal preference as far as I can see however . .
Unless it's just massive, I keep the image in RGB (even though it 
B&W) until I'm about to print then I make a duplicate and convert to 
20% Dot Gain (save with a unique name) and print that copy using QTR.

That way I have both files to play with.

Jules







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Rem,

>I have experimented with a number of BW conversion methods, but
>regardless of the method, is it desirable to finally save the 
>image as a mode>grayscale rather than mode>RGB? If so, why?

In my experiments I found no significant difference in the quality of
the print when printing as RGB vs Grayscale, and I prefer the
grayscale workflow.  So in order to save space and avoid the
inconvenience of temporarily converting every time I want to print, I
save the file as grayscale after Color2BW conversion.  Negs are
scanned as grayscale.   

On a complex project I often save several files at progressive stages
during the work, as I sometimes will go back a stage and do something
different.  But once I'm satisfied with the final version I erase the
others.  Even in grayscale, with all the layers and alpha channels
they can easily be over 100mg each.

I always save the original RAW file (or neg scan), and also keep
detailed notes as I work, so I have a "recipe" to follow (or change)
if I ever want to go back and start over.  In real life the only times
I have reworked a file is in the case of some of my early attempts,
from when my PS skills were not as good as they are now.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

> Hello Rem,
>
> >I have experimented with a number of BW conversion methods, but
> >regardless of the method, is it desirable to finally save the
> >image as a mode>grayscale rather than mode>RGB? If so, why?
>
> In my experiments I found no significant difference in the quality of
> the print when printing as RGB vs Grayscale, and I prefer the
> grayscale workflow.  So in order to save space and avoid the
> inconvenience of temporarily converting every time I want to print, I
> save the file as grayscale after Color2BW conversion.  Negs are
> scanned as grayscale.  
>
> On a complex project I often save several files at progressive stages
> during the work, as I sometimes will go back a stage and do something
> different.  But once I'm satisfied with the final version I erase the
> others.  Even in grayscale, with all the layers and alpha channels
> they can easily be over 100mg each.
>
> I always save the original RAW file (or neg scan), and also keep
> detailed notes as I work, so I have a "recipe" to follow (or change)
> if I ever want to go back and start over.  In real life the only times
> I have reworked a file is in the case of some of my early attempts,
> from when my PS skills were not as good as they are now.
>
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at   
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>
>
>
>


Thanks, Clayton, Brian, Jules...

I think that I now have handle on how to proceed with the workflow.

Cheers,

Rem

Clayton,
When you convert to grayscale from the RGB, does it carry over all of the RGB adjustments that you make during the RAW to RGB to Print flow? Would it now be RAW to RG B to grayscale to print?
In addition, why would I want to use 20% dot gain instead of gray scale?

Art


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Art,

>When you convert to grayscale from the RGB, does it carry over all 
>of the RGB adjustments that you make during the RAW to RGB to Print 
>flow? Would it now be RAW to RGB to grayscale to print?

Yes.  I convert from RAW to 16-bit tif, then do the BW conversion. 
This can be done with one of several methods, or sometimes I do more
than one version before deciding.  When I'm satisfied with the
conversion, I convert the file to grayscale mode, which reduces file
size by 2/3 and makes no visual difference.  All BW conversion
effects, no matter how they were arrived at, are preserved.  I then
proceed to work up the image to it's final state.


>In addition, why would I want to use 20% dot gain instead of 
>gray scale?

I think there's a mixup here, this is kind of an Apples/Oranges
question.  20% DG is an image profile which can be applied to a
grayscale image (it can't be applied to an RGB image).  If an image is
grayscale there are certain choices of profiles to use.  DG20 is one,
GG2.2 is another popular one. 

You can see this in PS.  Open an RGB image and go to the
Image/Mode/Assign Profile window and look at the choices.  Then do the
same with a grayscale image - completely different.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Sidetrack here for a second, there is an Photoshop action that  
generates six ways of converting to grayscale. Uses standard settings  
but since it's an action, it can be edited. You can find it with a  
Google search, it's called "6 grays.atn"
Mark

On May 19, 2006, at 1:36 PM, Clayton Jones wrote:

> <converting to grayscale> this can be done with one of several  
> methods, or sometimes I do more
> than one version before deciding.

Clayton

I think I understand now. I see alot of emails stating to use the grayscale format with the prewritten ICCs for their printer ink combinations. Now I see that you can make your adjsutments in RGB convert to grayscale and use the ICC. Is this correct?
Where can I get ICCs for the R220 with MIS inks

Art


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Art,

>I think I understand now. I see alot of emails stating to use the
>grayscale format with the prewritten ICCs for their printer ink 
>combinations. 

Yes, most of the various workflows discussed here are for grayscale files.


>Now I see that you can make your adjustments in RGB 
>convert to grayscale and...<whatever comes next>

Yes.  The BW conversion is crucial to the overall look and feel, but
in a sense is merely preparation, setting the stage so to speak, for
the rest of the work.



>...use the ICC. Is this correct?
>Where can I get ICCs for the R220 with MIS inks

Sorry, I'm the wrong person to ask about that, as I don't use them. 
I'm sure Paul Roark or some others will jump in here with that.  There
are a variety of approaches.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Thank you Clayton

Art


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Art,

Paul has ICC's for some papers here:

http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/R220_UT-R2_ICC_Download.html

If you're using the 3D inks, the links are at the top of this page:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, aromanocpa@... 
wrote:

>
> Thank you Clayton
> 
> Art
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thank you Brian

Art


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]