Digital BW, The Print

Hi everyone, this is my first post but already this group has helped
me a good deal in getting started with digital B&W printing.  Now I'm
trying to find out if anyone has found a BO solution for the 2400, but
there doesn't seem to be much information about this anywhere.  I
suppose most people aren't interested in the 2400 for BO printing, as
it is an advancement upon its predecessors primarily for its
continuous-tone B&W, but I was hoping to be able to do color,
continuous-tone B&W, and BO all on the same printer, as I'm moving
abroad and need to take a minimum of equipment.  I thought the Epson
2400 was the machine for this and bought one last week, rather taking
it for granted that I could do BO on it.  Now I'm reading that the
Black mode uses color inks, which is frustrating to say the least. 
Why is such an expensive and sophisticated printer incapable of one of
the simplest and oldest B&W printing approaches out there?

Naturally there's no point in such questions.  What I'd really like to
know is if anyone has had luck in finding a workaround.  Perhaps
printing from a RIP like QTR would do the trick, as I understand that
this bypasses the Epson driver?  Has anyone experimented with this?

Thanks in advance for any help.

-James

Hello James,

>trying to find out if anyone has found a BO solution for the 2400, 
>but there doesn't seem to be much information about this anywhere.  

The 2400 does not natively support BO printing, but it can be done
with QTR.  However, the results are not quite as good as produced by
the 2200 or the R200/220.  The dither pattern is coarser, but still
looks good for some images.  It's worth a try.  


>I thought the Epson 2400 was the machine for this and bought one 
>last week, rather taking it for granted that I could do BO on it.  
>Now I'm reading that the Black mode uses color inks, which is 
>frustrating to say the least.  Why is such an expensive and 
>sophisticated printer incapable of one of the simplest and oldest 
>B&W printing approaches out there?

Good question.  However, the ABW mode is capable of making gorgeous BW
prints without requiring a densitometer, special curves and complex
color management.  So, IMO, you still have purchased the best desktop
printer for doing both color and BW, and should not regret your
purchase.  Please see article #9 at the link below for detailed
workflow instructions.  BW printing of this quality has never been easier.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "toong_bo"
<james.hendrick@...> wrote:
>...Now I'm reading that the Black mode uses color inks, which is
>frustrating to say the least.

Just to expand a little on Clayton's response:

Though the ABW mode does use colour inks, if you use a RIP like QTR or
IJC/OPM you have complete control over which inks are used, and in
what quantity. I am particularly fond of images made with just the PK,
LK and LLK inks. These give slightly warm images on most papers, but
not too warm, and the highlights are a lot smoother than BO images.
The R2400 with a B&W RIP as well as the Epson driver is a very
versatile printer.

Best,
Helen

Hello Helen,

>I am particularly fond of images made with just the PK, LK and LLK 
>inks. These give slightly warm images on most papers, but not too 
>warm...

Are you using Epson K3 or MIS K4 inks?  The reason I ask is I decided
to give QTR another try and downloaded the latest today and tried
several prints with different curves.  The MK warm curve, which is
just the three Ks, produced a color I didn't care for (on several
papers).  In general it was too yellowish.  I'm wondering if you are
using the K4, or tweaked that curve, or maybe you like the color...can
you expand a bit on your technique?  Many thanks.

Regards,
Clayton

Hi Clayton,

Actually I've already read every word on your website, as no matter
where I headed on the internet during my initial research, people were
pointing that way.  Thank you for providing such a valuable resource.
 Sites like yours make me love the internet.  It's also your site that
has me so curious about the BO technique.

> The 2400 does not natively support BO printing, but it can be done
> with QTR.  However, the results are not quite as good as produced by
> the 2200 or the R200/220.  The dither pattern is coarser, but still
> looks good for some images.  It's worth a try.

Thanks, if you find the R200 a better solution for BO, I'm wondering
whether I should try QTR on the 2400 or just find an R200 once I'm
abroad and keep it onhand with some Eboni ink, since these units are
so cheap now.  Of course I wouldn't be able to print as large as with
a RIP on the 2400, though.

> Good question.  However, the ABW mode is capable of making gorgeous BW
> prints without requiring a densitometer, special curves and complex
> color management.  So, IMO, you still have purchased the best desktop
> printer for doing both color and BW, and should not regret your
> purchase.

I made prints all weekend and can surely say I don't regret the
purchase; the color results are more than adequate for me and,
following your article on 2400 ABW printing, I'm already getting very
satisfying B&W prints on VFA, which is certainly a credit to the
intelligence of the ABW driver.  I'll soon be trying to get hold of
small samples of some of the other papers you have listed in your
Paper Chase, and will no doubt enjoy making prints with the ABW mode,
but want to explore BO as well.  I like street photography and would
like to see how such images print with the punchiness and rawness I've
heard attributed to the BO method.

-James

> Though the ABW mode does use colour inks, if you use a RIP like QTR or
> IJC/OPM you have complete control over which inks are used, and in
> what quantity. 

Hi Helen, thanks for the response, this is useful to know.  So much
experimenting to do....

-James

Hello James,

>Actually I've already read...

Thanks for your kind words.  I'm glad you have found the website helpful.

>if you find the R200 a better solution for BO, I'm wondering
>whether I should try QTR on the 2400 or just find an R200 once I'm
>abroad and keep it onhand with some Eboni ink, since these units are
>so cheap now.  Of course I wouldn't be able to print as large as with
>a RIP on the 2400, though.

Since you can try QTR for free for 30 days there is not much to lose
in giving it a try.  But you're right, if you have room for a 200 or
220 they are inexpensive, and keeping Eboni in it would allow keeping
the Epson inks in the 2400.  That's what I'm doing at present (you'll
definitely want to use Eboni for BO).  Plus having the small printer
with Eboni allows using it in BO mode for all proof prints when
working up a new image.  It works great and saves loads on ink costs
(plus wear and tear) not to use K3/2400 for that.

I'm getting such good results, and with not a single clog in over nine
months now, I've been hesitant to to put anything else in the 2400. 
The R200 is my experimenting printer, it has R2-N in it right now. 
The 2400 is more than I could have dreamed of just a few years ago:
beautiful smooth prints, rich tonality and luminance, easy as BO with
no RIP/curve fiddling, icc profiles, densitometers and such, and
absolutely no clogs.  It is a bit tricky to find the right ABW setting
for a given image/paper, but it's a small price to pay for the
benefits, and thank goodness we have such a high degree of control.

As for fading of the color inks, I've had a test print on my
windowsill torture test for over eight months now with no sign of
fading, so it has already outlasted all the other inks I've tested
that did fade.  It surely won't last as long as a pure carbon BO, or
even the MIS toned inks, as Paul's tests have shown, but neither is it
a quick-fade weak ink.  Between the Wilhelm reports, Paul's results
and my own tests I'm satisfied with it's fade resistance.  

All together the combination of 2400/200 adds up to BW printing heaven
for me, especially after several years of frustrating struggle.  The
biggest drawback is the expensive inks.  But I'm selling prints and so
far am operating in the black, so I'm a happy camper.


>but want to explore BO as well.  I like street photography and 
>would like to see how such images print with the punchiness and 
>rawness I've heard attributed to the BO method.

Then you'll definitely want to try Eboni BO, it's really great for
that kind of work.  Be sure to try some Kayenta.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton, thanks again for your advice.  I think I'll order some Eboni
and give it a try with QTR on the free trial, and if that doesn't work
out at I can try to get an R200 or 220 and put the ink in there.

>  Plus having the small printer
> with Eboni allows using it in BO mode for all proof prints when
> working up a new image.  It works great and saves loads on ink costs
> (plus wear and tear) not to use K3/2400 for that.

Sounds like a smart strategy.  I'll have to keep that in mind.

> All together the combination of 2400/200 adds up to BW printing heaven
> for me, especially after several years of frustrating struggle.  The
> biggest drawback is the expensive inks.  

Have you considered refilling the 2400 from 4800 carts?  

I'll be sure to get hold of some Kayenta.

-James

>Then you'll definitely want to try Eboni BO, it's really great for
>that kind of work.  Be sure to try some Kayenta.

I did a BO series on this paper using a 2200. I thought they turned out very nicely.

I moved onto the 2400 though after the 2200 crapped out on me and couldn't happier.

Dave.
-- 
David Keenan, ausdlk@... on 6/2/2006

Hello James,

Yesterday I tried printing with only the blacks (matte
black, light black and light light black) with a 9800
Epson. I used IJC/OPM and the profile that came with
it as a starting point. I turned the light magenta and
light cyan  channels off. The result of that is "pure
carbon" and it has a slightly warm tone (nothing that
bothers me). 
It works like a charm. 
If you don't like the warm tone, turn the light cyan
and magenta channels back on and tune them to your
taste.
The set-up of this printer is basically the same as
the 2400 (different head and engine maybe) so my guess
is that you could do the same. Also, this software
allows you to turn on and off as many channels as you
wish.
I hope this helps.

Pablo


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Pablo, thanks very much for the response.  This sounds like an
interesting third option for b&w printing on the 2400, something like
using a dedicated gray-only inkset.  I'm interested in BO not so much
for its pure carbon aspect as for the aesthetic possibilities offered
 by generating the tonal range through a dithering pattern, but I'll
keep this possibility in mind.

-James

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, El Estudio
<elestudio@...> wrote:

>
> Hello James,
> 
> Yesterday I tried printing with only the blacks (matte
> black, light black and light light black) with a 9800
> Epson. I used IJC/OPM and the profile that came with
> it as a starting point. I turned the light magenta and
> light cyan  channels off. The result of that is "pure
> carbon" and it has a slightly warm tone (nothing that
> bothers me). 
> It works like a charm. 
> If you don't like the warm tone, turn the light cyan
> and magenta channels back on and tune them to your
> taste.
> The set-up of this printer is basically the same as
> the 2400 (different head and engine maybe) so my guess
> is that you could do the same. Also, this software
> allows you to turn on and off as many channels as you
> wish.
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Pablo
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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>