Digital BW, The Print

From all the reports I've read from the beta testers I expected to find little or no gloss differential when using K3 Photo Black ink on Silver Rag in my R2400. Back in February, John Dean said "In tests on the Epson 2400 K3 machine, the black and white work was perfect using the ABW mode, very neutral, intense blacks, and no gloss differential or bronzing at all, none." However, I find the gloss differential glaringly obvious. The ink has a much higher gloss than the paper. I don't know how to account for this. Either there has been a change in surface between the beta versions and the current version or I am much more critical than others, having spent most of my life printing air-dried glossy in the darkroom and for the last few years using dye-based inks rather than pigment because of the differential problem. Maybe to others the differential seems negligible. Maybe I can learn to live with it but I'd rather not have to. 

 

I've tried everything I can think of to reduce the differential, including the Highlight Point Shift (which helps very little and makes this already dark paper still darker) and tinkering with curves, transfer function, ink configuration and, of course, paper selection. I have come to the conclusion that no tinkering with the driver will make any difference because any particular tone, for example, middle gray, requires that a specific amount of ink be laid down to achieve it and no matter what driver, profile, etc., I use, I will always come out with same specific amount of ink for that specific tone, resulting in the same amount of gloss differential. 

 

I would appreciate any suggestions, including alternate papers having the same, or nearly the same specs as MSR - 100% Rag, acid free and no brighteners. 

 

Any thoughts?

 

Olaf Ringdahl

 

 

 

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "olaf ringdahl" <o.ringdahl@...> 
wrote:
>...spent most of my life printing air-dried glossy in the darkroom...
...
> I would appreciate any suggestions, including alternate papers having the same, or 
nearly the same specs as MSR - 100% Rag, acid free and no brighteners. 

I'm curious why you would make those specs a requirement when the years of papers you 
used in the darkroom were nowhere close to rag, and most had OBAs as well. Even the 
papers we hand coated with our precious platinum weren't that pristene sometimes.
I don't mean that argumentatively, just curious.

But to answer your question, I don't think there are any other papers that meet those 
specs, at least not a photo type surface for PK use.

The larger issue, I find the market changing so quickly to people without your experience 
that this level of gloss differential seems like a dream. Though I think these papers are 
very useful, I agree the state of the art is still far from "analogue" quality in some respects 
and you only have to put one of these next to a good silver print to see it. But how many 
here even have one?
However we do have these papers now, and they are evolving before our eyes, things are 
getting better fast.
Tyler

I used to print B/W on Ilford MG FiberBase paper in the 'wet' darkroom
(still do on occasion) and like you I really dislike gloss
differential.  I now print of glossy or luster inkjet papers using the
Epson 7800 and have found I can eliminate gloss differential (GD) by
spraying prints with Premier Art Print Shield.  I guess this is not
appealing to people who don't have the space for spraying, or don't
want to bother with protection from the fumes, but it really does
work.  I think of it as the last step to making a print, analogous to
the final bleaching and selenium toning steps I do after washing and
drying a traditional darkroom print.

I would be very surprised if Print Shield did not get rid of GD on
Silver Rag or similar papers.

To me the resultant GD free prints are well worth the effort of
applying Print Shield.

Ken

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "olaf ringdahl"
<o.ringdahl@...> wrote:
 
>... Maybe to others the differential seems negligible. Maybe I can
learn to live with it but I'd rather not have to. 
 
> 
> I've tried everything I can think of to reduce the differential,
including the Highlight Point Shift (which helps very little and makes
this already dark paper still darker)...

> 
> I would appreciate any suggestions...
>  
> 
> Olaf Ringdahl
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kenseidman"
<Seidmank@...> wrote:
>
> I would be very surprised if Print Shield did not get rid of GD on
> Silver Rag or similar papers.
> 
> To me the resultant GD free prints are well worth the effort of
> applying Print Shield.

I wonder how the Silver Rag and K3 respond to Image Specialists
"glop". I'm running that in an unused printer as an overcoat. Not as
nice as Print Shield, but a whole lot easier! 

Ciao!

Joe

In reviewing the last 2 weeks worth of messages, Silver Rag and Innova
F-type are clearly getting a lot of attention. 
 
I was curious how the Innova F-Type and Crane Silver Rag compared to my old
silver prints (Kodak Polymax Fine Art in Dektol with a light selenium tone)
with respect to the white end of the scale.  

Looking at the OBA level, I held them all under a black light to see the
extent of brighteners.  The silver print was about half way between the
Crane (no OBA) and Innova papers.  I have heard that extended washing would
reduce or eliminate the OBAs in some gelatin silver prints.  I did what I
thought was the Kodak/Adams times for "archival" washing -- fairly long but
not over night.

At any rate, the silver print did have OBAs in it.  

However, the impact of OBAs in my silver prints is less of a concern to me
than it is in the inkjet printing papers.  I have the borderless silver
prints dry mounted on non-OBA mat board.  Then the over-mat touched only the
underlying mat board, leaving about 1/4 inch mat for signing.  As such, to
the extent extended display of the print "burned out," faded, or reduced the
extent of OBAs, this would be uniform across the silver print.  The
underlying non-OBA mats do not show any difference in appearance when taken
out of the over-mats for storage.

My concern with the OBA inkjet papers is that with extended display the
over-mat will leave a "shadow" on the paper.  I now prefer tape hanging to
dry mounting.  I leave a good-sized border of inkjet paper around the image
for signing and over-matting.  The over-mats cover part of the wide paper
borders beyond what is needed for signing.  My concern is that the parts of
the OBA-containing inkjet paper border that were exposed to light will
yellow with light exposure.  The paper that was under the over-mat will not.
If the prints are taken out of the frames for storage (which I think many do
for saving space and other reasons), this differential will be seen and
suggest that the paper is of low quality.  I don't know how long it will
take, but however long it's not an artifact I want on my work.  So, I favor
non-OBA papers.

Aside from OBAs, in comparing the new papers with the silver prints, what
struck me most was the extent to which the inkjet papers were brighter in
the image areas.  Admittedly I was no Bruce Barnbaum.  I didn't bleach every
image to get those ultimate whites.  However, even where I did use bleach on
a few prints, the inkjet whites were still brighter.  Where the Crane SR and
Innova F-type paper whites were Lab L=95, the brightest of my bleached
gelatin silver print white areas was only 91.  This brightness, due to our
ability to have higher contrast right up to the paper white (as opposed to
the rolled-off shoulder of a silver print) was one of the factors that
immediately struck me as a significant advantage of inkjet printing when I
first started it.  The same concept makes out black ends more useful than
those of the silver prints.  The ultimate paper white and dmax of silver
prints are simply not that useable in most real world printing.

With respect to color, the non-OBA papers match my Light Impressions
"Gallery White" Exeter mat boards best.  I find this a significant factor
where the prints are to be matted.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 









________________________________________

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:41 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Silver Rag Gloss Differential

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "olaf ringdahl"
<o.ringdahl@...> 
wrote:
>...spent most of my life printing air-dried glossy in the darkroom...
...
> I would appreciate any suggestions, including alternate papers having the
same, or 
nearly the same specs as MSR - 100% Rag, acid free and no brighteners. 

I'm curious why you would make those specs a requirement when the years of
papers you 
used in the darkroom were nowhere close to rag, and most had OBAs as well.
Even the 
papers we hand coated with our precious platinum weren't that pristene
sometimes.
I don't mean that argumentatively, just curious.

But to answer your question, I don't think there are any other papers that
meet those 
specs, at least not a photo type surface for PK use.

The larger issue, I find the market changing so quickly to people without
your experience 
that this level of gloss differential seems like a dream. Though I think
these papers are 
very useful, I agree the state of the art is still far from "analogue"
quality in some respects 
and you only have to put one of these next to a good silver print to see it.
But how many 
here even have one?
However we do have these papers now, and they are evolving before our eyes,
things are 
getting better fast.
Tyler