Digital BW, The Print

Paul,

Can I use MIS PKN in an Epson R2400?

Is MIS K4 LLK the same as MIS UT-3D LLK?

Is MIS K4 LK the same as MIS UT-3D LK?

Thanks,

Roger

Roger,

>Can I use MIS PKN in an Epson R2400?

Yes, but I have not tried the various ones MIS sells to see which is best.
The k3 machines are optimized for a lower load PK than the older ones.  So,
the older PKN that was originally mixed for an early C82 or C84, will
probably not be the best.  The UT-R2 PKn or the UT-3D M might be better
choices.  (The 3D M is actually a low-load PKN.)

>Is MIS K4 LLK the same as MIS UT-3D LLK?

No, the 3D version is somewhat neutralized.  The MIS K3 LLK is pure carbon,
and warmer than either the 3D or Epson's version (which is about half
carbon).

>Is MIS K4 LK the same as MIS UT-3D LK?

No, there is the same difference as above.  

If you want a warm carbon LK and LLK, MIS's versions are the best.  For the
2400 and the Y=Carbon B&W approach, I recommend MIS K4 LK and LLK.  This
extends the warm range a bit due to the warmth of the pure carbon.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Thanks for the information on the inks.

I just got my R2400 and I need to decide what inks and BW printing
procedure to use after I use up the original Epson carts.  I plan to
use spongeless carts and MIS inks.

I think I'd prefer to use either your UT-3D procedure or Roy's QTR
with MIS K4 inks.  I think I'll pass on the Epson ABW mode, since I
want a little more control of the process.  

I downloaded the trial version of QTR and I've played around with it a
bit.  I see that I can turn the yellow ink off with QTR. I doubt that
I will ever want to print anything warmer than I can get with pure carbon.

I also have PrintFixPro, so I can measure the Lab values from a
21-step gray scale print to profile and linearize various QTR settings
for different inks and papers.  (I've already practiced this with my
Epson K3 inks).

I've also read over all of your material on the UT-3D procedure. 

Now for a few questions:

What are the major differences/advantages/disadvantages between using
QTR with K4 inks versus UT-3D inks?

Will Roy be adding the possibility of using UT-3D inks for his QTR?

Is the UT-3D ink set now in a finialized form?  I saw messages that
there were some problems or changes with different batches from MIS.

Is it possible to do soft-proofing using QTR? 

I assume that it's possible to do soft-proofing with your UT-3D
procedure, since it is color managed. I've never done any
soft-proofing, but since I have PFP, I hope that it won't be too
complicated.

Thanks again,

Roger

Hi Paul. In relation to content discussion of the PK ink, I have a
question I've not seen discussed. What are the major diferences
between a Matt purposed ink "ala Eboni or Epson matt" and the Photo
versions? Is it primarily in pigment load? Or base composition? Or
both. Or are there other factors involved such as particle size etc?

Regards
Duane




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Roger,
> 
> >Can I use MIS PKN in an Epson R2400?
> 
> Yes, but I have not tried the various ones MIS sells to see which is
best.
> The k3 machines are optimized for a lower load PK than the older
ones.  So,

> the older PKN that was originally mixed for an early C82 or C84, will
> probably not be the best.  The UT-R2 PKn or the UT-3D M might be better
> choices.  (The 3D M is actually a low-load PKN.)
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus"
<dlruckus@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Paul. In relation to content discussion of the PK ink, I have a
> question I've not seen discussed. What are the major diferences
> between a Matt purposed ink "ala Eboni or Epson matt" and the Photo
> versions? Is it primarily in pigment load? Or base composition? Or
> both. Or are there other factors involved such as particle size etc?
> 
> Regards
> Duane


It used to be the pigment type, but now with the newer inks it is both
the pigment type and the base material.

Roger,

>I just got my R2400 and I need to decide what inks and 
>BW printing procedure to use after I use up the original 
>Epson carts. I plan to use spongeless carts and MIS inks.

You have lots of alternatives with the 2400 and don't even have to stick to
just one.

>I think I'd prefer to use either your UT-3D procedure or 
>Roy's QTR with MIS K4 inks. I think I'll pass on the 
>Epson ABW mode, since I want a little more control of the process.

You can easily alternate between ABW and QTR.  Each one might have
advantages for different purposes.  

> I see that I can turn the yellow ink off with QTR. 
> I doubt that I will ever want to print anything warmer 
> than I can get with pure carbon.

I recommend carbon in the yellow spot and then not turning it off.  Printers
are usually better with all their jets firing as designed.  Both QTR and ABW
mode would then be able to print with all jets firing and the minimum amount
of color being used.  You'll get the best of both worlds.  It'll be easy to
compare the two approaches yourself.

I can't answer most of the other questions.  I am still experimenting with
the 3D inkset.  There are a few more capabilities that I'd like to add to
it, but I have not tested them yet.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Thanks for the info.

Should the yellow position be LLK or LK? 

Roger

Sorry if this is off topic but I'm about to order a 2400 and will use  
K3 inks for a while. I know my old 4000 used more light Cyan + light  
Magenta that most other inks when printing color and Yellow when I  
use QTR for B&W. Can anyone tell me which carts are likely to run out  
first if I switch back and forth? My plan would be to save up a  
number of B&W prints to do to minimize the swap.

Thanks, Alan

On Sep 10, 2006, at 10:52 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Roger,
>
> >I just got my R2400 and I need to decide what inks and
> >BW printing procedure to use after I use up the original
> >Epson carts. I plan to use spongeless carts and MIS inks.
>
> You have lots of alternatives with the 2400 and don't even have to  
> stick to
> just one.
>
> >I think I'd prefer to use either your UT-3D procedure or
> >Roy's QTR with MIS K4 inks. I think I'll pass on the
> >Epson ABW mode, since I want a little more control of the process.
>
> You can easily alternate between ABW and QTR. Each one might have
> advantages for different purposes.
>
> > I see that I can turn the yellow ink off with QTR.
> > I doubt that I will ever want to print anything warmer
> > than I can get with pure carbon.
>
> I recommend carbon in the yellow spot and then not turning it off.  
> Printers
> are usually better with all their jets firing as designed. Both QTR  
> and ABW
> mode would then be able to print with all jets firing and the  
> minimum amount
> of color being used. You'll get the best of both worlds. It'll be  
> easy to
> compare the two approaches yourself.
>
> I can't answer most of the other questions. I am still  
> experimenting with
> the 3D inkset. There are a few more capabilities that I'd like to  
> add to
> it, but I have not tested them yet.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

>Should the yellow position be LLK or LK? 

Good question.  LLK and 3D/UT7-LC work well.  I'm going to try EZ-W also.
The higher the density the better as long as the dots don't show.  I'm
afraid LK might show.  The EZ-W might be OK, however -- don't know yet.

The higher the density, the further you can go in the warm direction, but
the differences may be too minor to risk the dots.  The standard light
carbon (UT2-LM, UT7-LC, R2-Warm-light, 3D-LC -- all the same, all about 50%
LK, 50% base) works well and is so universally used, it's not a bad idea to
have some around for various uses.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Alan,

I'm not sure I'm being responsive, but in B&W LM and LC are used to offset
the warmth of the LK and LLK.  The K3 LK and LLK are more neutral than the
older ones, but they are still a bit warm. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

>... I'm about to order a 2400 and will use 
> K3 inks for a while. I know my old 4000 used more light Cyan + light 
> Magenta that most other inks when printing color and Yellow when I 
> use QTR for B&W. Can anyone tell me which carts are likely to run out 
> first if I switch back and forth? My plan would be to save up a 
> number of B&W prints to do to minimize the swap.

Hello all,

I tried posting this on another Group with no success.


I am missing something in understanding the curves setup and I wonder 
if someone can spot my gross error??

I have MIS quadtone inks in the epson 3000.

My stepwedge is blocky by ink cart..

Is the chart supposed to be smooth?

Here's my attemp at a curve;

PRINTER=Quad3000
CURVE_NAME=3000q4test2
GRAPH_CURVE=YES
N_OF_INKS=4
DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=70
BOOST_K=100
LIMIT_K=
LIMIT_C=30
LIMIT_M=30
LIMIT_Y=30
N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=4
GRAY_INK_1=K
GRAY_VAL_1=100
GRAY_INK_2=C
GRAY_VAL_2=63
GRAY_INK_3=M
GRAY_VAL_3=43
GRAY_INK_4=Y
GRAY_VAL_4=13
GRAY_HIGHLIGHT=0
GRAY_SHADOW=0
GRAY_OVERLAP=0
GRAY_GAMMA=1
GRAY_CURVE=
N_OF_TONER_PARTS=0
TONER_HIGHLIGHT=0
TONER_SHADOW=0
TONER_GAMMA=1
TONER_CURVE=
N_OF_TONER_2_PARTS=0
TONER_2_HIGHLIGHT=0
TONER_2_SHADOW=0
TONER_2_GAMMA=1
TONER_2_CURVE=
N_OF_UNUSED=0


Thanks in advance,

gar

> 
> I have MIS quadtone inks in the epson 3000.
> 
> My stepwedge is blocky by ink cart..
> 
> Is the chart supposed to be smooth?
> 
> Here's my attemp at a curve;
> 
> PRINTER=Quad3000
> CURVE_NAME=3000q4test2
> GRAPH_CURVE=YES
> N_OF_INKS=4
> DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=70
> BOOST_K=100
> LIMIT_K=
> LIMIT_C=30
> LIMIT_M=30
> LIMIT_Y=30
> N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=4
> GRAY_INK_1=K
> GRAY_VAL_1=100
> GRAY_INK_2=C
> GRAY_VAL_2=63
> GRAY_INK_3=M
> GRAY_VAL_3=43
> GRAY_INK_4=Y
> GRAY_VAL_4=13
> GRAY_HIGHLIGHT=0
> GRAY_SHADOW=0
> GRAY_OVERLAP=0
> GRAY_GAMMA=1
> GRAY_CURVE=
> N_OF_TONER_PARTS=0
> TONER_HIGHLIGHT=0
> TONER_SHADOW=0
> TONER_GAMMA=1
> TONER_CURVE=
> N_OF_TONER_2_PARTS=0
> TONER_2_HIGHLIGHT=0
> TONER_2_SHADOW=0
> TONER_2_GAMMA=1
> TONER_2_CURVE=
> N_OF_UNUSED=0
> 

From what I can see :
- Boost is set too high, overspraying K. You want boost to be 110-
115% of Default Ink Limit thus around 77-80% in your case.
- All Gray Val seems high but I don't know the ink set, so it might 
be valid. However you do not need to limit CMY which are you grey 
densities, since the Gray Val already establishes the relationship 
between K and greys.
- Shadows and HLs 'd better be smoother (like you'be doing with a PS 
master RGB curve to open up shadows and calm down HL), you need to 
input some datas, probably around respectively 10 and 8. You can load 
a PS curve if more convenient to adjust these.
- You also want greys to overlap for better smoothness, specially for 
K, this could be 10. 

Those are standard values and a fairly common start to generate the 
linearisation.

You can now create the curve and visualise the usage of each ink. Let 
me insist on this : you can analyse a lot through those graphs 
without the need to print. I past tended to under-estimate this nice 
feature, it's a free $, time, hassle testing.

Now, print your stepwedge and measure each patch, those values have 
to go into the linearisation panel of QTR, you click to get the 
linearisation done and you will see the total ink usage curve, the 
smoother the better in my experience.

Print the stepwedge for final evaluation and you're set. Next is to 
use the profiling tool of QTR with this lastest stepwedge. Other 
approaches use gray spaces or Paul's adjutment curves depending on 
equipment and the way one feels more comfortable.

Hope it helps.

Olivier

Thank you very much!

My first curvers looked like a mountain range and this one had valleys, but
I didn't understand that the curve should be "smooth" or what the curve
represented.

gar

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Olivier
  Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 1:28 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 4 color QuadTone setup


  >
  > I have MIS quadtone inks in the epson 3000.
  >
  > My stepwedge is blocky by ink cart..
  >
  > Is the chart supposed to be smooth?
  >
  > Here's my attemp at a curve;
  >
  > PRINTER=Quad3000
  > CURVE_NAME=3000q4test2
  > GRAPH_CURVE=YES
  > N_OF_INKS=4
  > DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=70
  > BOOST_K=100
  > LIMIT_K=
  > LIMIT_C=30
  > LIMIT_M=30
  > LIMIT_Y=30
  > N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=4
  > GRAY_INK_1=K
  > GRAY_VAL_1=100
  > GRAY_INK_2=C
  > GRAY_VAL_2=63
  > GRAY_INK_3=M
  > GRAY_VAL_3=43
  > GRAY_INK_4=Y
  > GRAY_VAL_4=13
  > GRAY_HIGHLIGHT=0
  > GRAY_SHADOW=0
  > GRAY_OVERLAP=0
  > GRAY_GAMMA=1
  > GRAY_CURVE=
  > N_OF_TONER_PARTS=0
  > TONER_HIGHLIGHT=0
  > TONER_SHADOW=0
  > TONER_GAMMA=1
  > TONER_CURVE=
  > N_OF_TONER_2_PARTS=0
  > TONER_2_HIGHLIGHT=0
  > TONER_2_SHADOW=0
  > TONER_2_GAMMA=1
  > TONER_2_CURVE=
  > N_OF_UNUSED=0
  >

  From what I can see :
  - Boost is set too high, overspraying K. You want boost to be 110-
  115% of Default Ink Limit thus around 77-80% in your case.
  - All Gray Val seems high but I don't know the ink set, so it might
  be valid. However you do not need to limit CMY which are you grey
  densities, since the Gray Val already establishes the relationship
  between K and greys.
  - Shadows and HLs 'd better be smoother (like you'be doing with a PS
  master RGB curve to open up shadows and calm down HL), you need to
  input some datas, probably around respectively 10 and 8. You can load
  a PS curve if more convenient to adjust these.
  - You also want greys to overlap for better smoothness, specially for
  K, this could be 10.

  Those are standard values and a fairly common start to generate the
  linearisation.

  You can now create the curve and visualise the usage of each ink. Let
  me insist on this : you can analyse a lot through those graphs
  without the need to print. I past tended to under-estimate this nice
  feature, it's a free $, time, hassle testing.

  Now, print your stepwedge and measure each patch, those values have
  to go into the linearisation panel of QTR, you click to get the
  linearisation done and you will see the total ink usage curve, the
  smoother the better in my experience.

  Print the stepwedge for final evaluation and you're set. Next is to
  use the profiling tool of QTR with this lastest stepwedge. Other
  approaches use gray spaces or Paul's adjutment curves depending on
  equipment and the way one feels more comfortable.

  Hope it helps.

  Olivier



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary W. Weaver" 
<garww@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you very much!
> 
> My first curvers looked like a mountain range and this one had 
valleys, but
> I didn't understand that the curve should be "smooth" or what the 
curve
> represented.
> 
> gar
> 

Don't get me wrong, it is the final total linearized ink usage curve 
that should be +/- smooth. When you look at the separate ink usage 
curves they do look like moutains. Yet the black one is sometimes 
bumpy which you may not want thus adjusting as previously said.

Although QTR is pretty user friendly, playing a bit with it gives you 
a much better understanding of the way it operates. That the reason 
why I like to visualise graphs without the need to output each time. 
Again don't get me wrong, you have to output for final evaluation.

Olivier

Hey, O,

Warning heeded!!!

I hope to play with it tonight.

Though, I opened up some other curves to look at the numbers, I never
thought to look at their graphs.


gar

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Olivier
  Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 8:52 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 4 color QuadTone setup


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary W. Weaver"
  <garww@...> wrote:
  >
  > Thank you very much!
  >
  > My first curvers looked like a mountain range and this one had
  valleys, but
  > I didn't understand that the curve should be "smooth" or what the
  curve
  > represented.
  >
  > gar
  >

  Don't get me wrong, it is the final total linearized ink usage curve
  that should be +/- smooth. When you look at the separate ink usage
  curves they do look like moutains. Yet the black one is sometimes
  bumpy which you may not want thus adjusting as previously said.

  Although QTR is pretty user friendly, playing a bit with it gives you
  a much better understanding of the way it operates. That the reason
  why I like to visualise graphs without the need to output each time.
  Again don't get me wrong, you have to output for final evaluation.

  Olivier



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gary W. Weaver wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> I tried posting this on another Group with no success.
> 
> 
> I am missing something in understanding the curves setup and I wonder 
> if someone can spot my gross error??
> 
> I have MIS quadtone inks in the epson 3000.
> 
> My stepwedge is blocky by ink cart..
> 
> Is the chart supposed to be smooth?
> 
> Here's my attemp at a curve;
> 
> PRINTER=Quad3000
> CURVE_NAME=3000q4test2
> GRAPH_CURVE=YES
> N_OF_INKS=4
> DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=70
> BOOST_K=100

Olivier has informed you already but:
On a 3000 you may be lucky if you get the limit above 50.
Limiting the other inks is usually only done if there are 
gloss problems, irregular patterns in that ink channel or 
detail loss somewhere in the middle of the greyscale due to 
too much ink. Most of the time it isn't needed.

Ernst

-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Hello Ernst,


If any of you still have a 3000 QTR curve laying around, I wouldn't mind
looking at it. I'd like to see what the Graph/chart looks like.



gar

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ernst
Dinkla
  Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 1:34 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 4 color QuadTone setup


  Gary W. Weaver wrote:
  > Hello all,
  >
  > I tried posting this on another Group with no success.
  >
  >
  > I am missing something in understanding the curves setup and I wonder
  > if someone can spot my gross error??
  >
  > I have MIS quadtone inks in the epson 3000.
  >
  > My stepwedge is blocky by ink cart..
  >
  > Is the chart supposed to be smooth?
  >
  > Here's my attemp at a curve;
  >
  > PRINTER=Quad3000
  > CURVE_NAME=3000q4test2
  > GRAPH_CURVE=YES
  > N_OF_INKS=4
  > DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=70
  > BOOST_K=100

  Olivier has informed you already but:
  On a 3000 you may be lucky if you get the limit above 50.
  Limiting the other inks is usually only done if there are
  gloss problems, irregular patterns in that ink channel or
  detail loss somewhere in the middle of the greyscale due to
  too much ink. Most of the time it isn't needed.

  Ernst

  --

  --
  Ernst Dinkla

  www.pigment-print.com
  ( unvollendet )


  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]