Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 9/12/06 10:24:31 PM, bwscans@... writes:


> Michael Reichmann has just written a review of the A3+ HP9180 pigment
> ink printer. 8 inks carts holding 27ml of ink each compare to 17ml of
> the R2400. It also has 4 user replaceable heads. $699 at BHPhotovideo.
> 
> Will this printer finally be a serious competitor to Epson's? Hope so.
> 
For Black and White? Reichman is amazing lenient on that point, noting that 
the B9180 produces "nice" b&w but with no controls or adjustments. He also 
doesn't comment on whether this printer's one gray ink is used to blend light 
grays, or whether they are built from Light Cyan, Light Magenta, and Yellow (which 
would push this printer back a generation in b&w technology). Either way, the 
idea that prints are "nice and neutral" from an uncontrolled b&w mode is 
pretty unreasonable. I can find two virtually identical papers that print 
significantly warmer and cooler than one another.   If one is neutral via a blind b&w 
mode, the other will be about 5 a*/b* points warm or cool, depending on which 
one is neutral (though I don't really expect either to be truely neutral).

Reichman also neglects to mention whether the HP export module is 8 bit per 
channel or 16. That matter a good deal to serious users looking for the best in 
detail gradation. Not being able to pick media settings and profiles directly 
in the export module will be a frustrating factor as well. So there's still 
no way of telling, until I have one of these in hand, if it will prove to be 
about equal to Epson's previous generation of printer (the 21/2200 in this 
width) or the newer 2400, with its more advanced black and white capabilities, and 
two levels of gray inks.

Either way, I'm pretty sure that PrintFIX PRO 2.0 will be a good way to 
control grayscale images on this printer, which lacks any advanced method of doing 
so. But somehow I doubt that this printer is going to replace the Canon 
iPF5000 as the best OEM black and white printer in my studio.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All the early reviews of this printer that I have seen have
consistently stated that the 9180 delivers exceptional B&W prints
superior to those from the Epson.  That you don't need to make a bunch
of adjustments seems to me to be a plus.

One other thing, the 9180 uses three inks for black and white; a photo
black, a matte black and a light gray.  This printer is just now
shipping so we should start seeing some first hand reports.  From
early reports though this is the printer to beat when it comes to B&W.

Neil Snape has extensive experience with this printer and has posted a
review at his site.  He frequents the printing forum at dpreview and
promptly answers most queries about this printer.  His review can be
found here:

http://www.neilsnape.com/HP9180_review.htm

-Gary

On 9/13/06, CDTobie@... <CDTobie@...> wrote:
> For Black and White? Reichman is amazing lenient on that point, noting that
> the B9180 produces "nice" b&w but with no controls or adjustments. He also
> doesn't comment on whether this printer's one gray ink is used to blend light
> grays, or whether they are built from Light Cyan, Light Magenta, and Yellow (which
> would push this printer back a generation in b&w technology). Either way, the
> idea that prints are "nice and neutral" from an uncontrolled b&w mode is
> pretty unreasonable. I can find two virtually identical papers that print
> significantly warmer and cooler than one another.   If one is neutral via a blind b&w
> mode, the other will be about 5 a*/b* points warm or cool, depending on which
> one is neutral (though I don't really expect either to be truely neutral).

-- 
-Gary

In a message dated 9/13/06 4:21:46 PM, gudstrand.list@... writes:


> All the early reviews of this printer that I have seen have
> consistently stated that the 9180 delivers exceptional B&W prints
> superior to those from the Epson.
> 

Early reviews are from those with close connections, who must speak very 
carefully, so fuller info always must await other critics.

>   That you don't need to make a bunch
> of adjustments seems to me to be a plus.
> 
Let me say this again: if two papers print decidely warmer and cooler than 
one another, a   non-adjustable system cannot be neutral on both, and is 
probably not very close to neutral on either. Some form of control is required.
> 
> One other thing, the 9180 uses three inks for black and white; a photo
> black, a matte black and a light gray.
> 
One gray... as we've been bandying about all day.

>   This printer is just now
> shipping so we should start seeing some first hand reports.  From
> early reports though this is the printer to beat when it comes to B&W.
> 
Nothing is the printer to beat until its released and tested. At the moment 
the Canon iPF5000 is the "out there" B&W printer to beat, followed closely by 
the Epson K3 printers.
> 
> Neil Snape has extensive experience with this printer and has posted a
> review at his site.
> 
Neil is a friend; I look forward to seeing him at Photokina, along with 
Harald Johnson, both of whom I expect to see working in the HP booth. But guys not 
working the HP booth will need to weigh in as well.

>   He frequents the printing forum at dpreview and
> promptly answers most queries about this printer. 
> 
Neil wrote: "The B&W image quality on fine art media is as good or better in 
some ways than all the competitors. They are all different, all good. It's the 
character that will make you like one over the other.
What I like about the B&W on the 9180 is the all new driver screening that 
looks like a film grain."

I would note a couple of things about that: Different is not good. When I do 
my color management thing and get the best I can manage from the K3 printers 
and the iPF5000 on the same media, there's nothing that could be called "all 
good, all different", it would be called "amazingly good, amazingly similar" 
both in color, and in black and white. When people tell me about liking the 
"flavor" of one or another B&w system, I tell them that first I want dead neutral, 
absolutely smooth; then I'm happy to add flavor as I see fit. If the flavor is 
there initially, then its not a choice, its a limitation. Driver screening 
that looks like any kind of grain at all concerns me greatly... lets hope that 
means: under a good loupe, it looks like film grain!

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I apologize for leaving the entire post intact.  I am unable to delete portions of the text--only all or nothing.  I'm going to check and see if choosing one of the 2 formats on the group page is causing this.

I do understand the grey ink thing---but the proof will probably be in the pudding, as they say.  I plan to wait and see.  I would like to replace my 2200 and had only considered the 2400 until the last week (I do not need a larger format printer so the Canon is not in the ballgame and their A3 printer seems way off in the future at this point).  Now I print monos with the 2200 and QTR.  My concern is metamerism primarily as I print on matte papers mostly.  What I would like is to be able to print a toned mono image directly from PS, matching my calibrated monitor and considering paper (using paper profiles)--basically in RGB I guess.    That doesn't appear to be possible with any of the printers at this point.  If I go with the 2400 I will tone my prints via their ABW driver--but this may be closer than using QTR I guess--but I'm not sure.  I wish there was some way to determine this without buying the printer and trying for myself.    I'm not interested in a neutral gray, but a toned print--but I would prefer its toned as I choose--not what a driver chooses.  That being said, QTR is a terrific product.  I have no interest in trying to create my own profiles/curves though, so I'm limited in that regard to what is available from others or QTR itself.  


I'm in no hurry--so I'm waiting to see more reviews and some information from those printing with it--esp. those that have been 2200 or 2400 users in the past.

Diane

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: CDTobie@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 4:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] HP Photosmart Pro B9180 review at LL



  In a message dated 9/13/06 4:21:46 PM, gudstrand.list@... writes:

  > All the early reviews of this printer that I have seen have
  > consistently stated that the 9180 delivers exceptional B&W prints
  > superior to those from the Epson.
  > 

  Early reviews are from those with close connections, who must speak very 
  carefully, so fuller info always must await other critics.

  >   That you don't need to make a bunch
  > of adjustments seems to me to be a plus.
  > 
  Let me say this again: if two papers print decidely warmer and cooler than 
  one another, a non-adjustable system cannot be neutral on both, and is 
  probably not very close to neutral on either. Some form of control is required.
  > 
  > One other thing, the 9180 uses three inks for black and white; a photo
  > black, a matte black and a light gray.
  > 
  One gray... as we've been bandying about all day.

  >   This printer is just now
  > shipping so we should start seeing some first hand reports.  From
  > early reports though this is the printer to beat when it comes to B&W.
  > 
  Nothing is the printer to beat until its released and tested. At the moment 
  the Canon iPF5000 is the "out there" B&W printer to beat, followed closely by 
  the Epson K3 printers.
  > 
  > Neil Snape has extensive experience with this printer and has posted a
  > review at his site.
  > 
  Neil is a friend; I look forward to seeing him at Photokina, along with 
  Harald Johnson, both of whom I expect to see working in the HP booth. But guys not 
  working the HP booth will need to weigh in as well.

  >   He frequents the printing forum at dpreview and
  > promptly answers most queries about this printer. 
  > 
  Neil wrote: "The B&W image quality on fine art media is as good or better in 
  some ways than all the competitors. They are all different, all good. It's the 
  character that will make you like one over the other.
  What I like about the B&W on the 9180 is the all new driver screening that 
  looks like a film grain."

  I would note a couple of things about that: Different is not good. When I do 
  my color management thing and get the best I can manage from the K3 printers 
  and the iPF5000 on the same media, there's nothing that could be called "all 
  good, all different", it would be called "amazingly good, amazingly similar" 
  both in color, and in black and white. When people tell me about liking the 
  "flavor" of one or another B&w system, I tell them that first I want dead neutral, 
  absolutely smooth; then I'm happy to add flavor as I see fit. If the flavor is 
  there initially, then its not a choice, its a limitation. Driver screening 
  that looks like any kind of grain at all concerns me greatly... lets hope that 
  means: under a good loupe, it looks like film grain!

  C. David Tobie
  Product Technology Manager
  ColorVision Business Unit
  Datacolor Inc.
  CDTobie@...
  www.colorvision.com

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Diane,
If you are interested in printing in RGB, you might check out Paul 
Butzi's site and Ken Lee's site.  They each have articles about using 
RGB curves for mono printing and each offer some interesting curves 
for toning.  
I have never tried this method, and I undrestand you need good 
profiles to make it work, but it might get you closer to what you are 
looking for.

Peter


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Diane Fields" 
<picnic@...> wrote:
>
> I apologize for leaving the entire post intact.  I am unable to 
delete portions of the text--only all or nothing.  I'm going to check 
and see if choosing one of the 2 formats on the group page is causing 
this.
> 
> I do understand the grey ink thing---but the proof will probably be 
in the pudding, as they say.  I plan to wait and see.  I would like 
to replace my 2200 and had only considered the 2400 until the last 
week (I do not need a larger format printer so the Canon is not in 
the ballgame and their A3 printer seems way off in the future at this 
point).  Now I print monos with the 2200 and QTR.  My concern is 
metamerism primarily as I print on matte papers mostly.  What I would 
like is to be able to print a toned mono image directly from PS, 
matching my calibrated monitor and considering paper (using paper 
profiles)--basically in RGB I guess.    That doesn't appear to be 
possible with any of the printers at this point.  If I go with the 
2400 I will tone my prints via their ABW driver--but this may be 
closer than using QTR I guess--but I'm not sure.  I wish there was 
some way to determine this without buying the printer and trying for 
myself.    I'm not interested in a neutral gray, but a toned print--
but I would prefer its toned as I choose--not what a driver chooses.  
That being said, QTR is a terrific product.  I have no interest in 
trying to create my own profiles/curves though, so I'm limited in 
that regard to what is available from others or QTR itself.  
> 
> 
> I'm in no hurry--so I'm waiting to see more reviews and some 
information from those printing with it--esp. those that have been 
2200 or 2400 users in the past.
> 
> Diane
> >    
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> 
> 
>   No virus found in this incoming message.
>   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>   Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 
9/12/2006

> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> Neil Snape has extensive experience with this printer and has posted a
> review at his site.  He frequents the printing forum at dpreview and
> promptly answers most queries about this printer.  His review can be
> found here:
> 
> http://www.neilsnape.com/HP9180_review.htm
> 
> -Gary
> 


Gary,

I've read the review by Neil Shape from the link you've posted above.
There's an item he listed in the "CON" section of his review:


"Illuminant metameric on photo media especially B&W"

Can any one explain what this means?

Thanks,
Andre

André,
 
I may be wrong but I read that as Neil saying metamerism on B&W prints 
was quite apparent with this printer.

Happy to be corrected if need be but seems an especially important 
point for people here.

Best,

David Meddings

> 
> Gary,
> 
> I've read the review by Neil Shape from the link you've posted above.
> There's an item he listed in the "CON" section of his review:
> 
> 
> "Illuminant metameric on photo media especially B&W"
> 
> Can any one explain what this means?
> 
> Thanks,
> Andre
>

From the review:

"My favourite by far is the HP Smooth Fine Art. On photo media the B&W
is composite only (wish this would change in a driver update) which
although is neutral in controlled lighting for which the print
lighting conditions are targeted for, they are quite illuminant
metameric. I have created special B&W profiles for different lighting,
so it is possible to target the print for the light but don't expect
B&W prints on photo media to be colour constant. Colour repro mask
illuminant metamerism so it is in line with other printers in this
regard but no where near as constant as a traditional darkroom colour
print."


And

"One thing to be aware of is all pigment printers have conditions that
will make them both illuminant metameric, and exhibit some degree of
bronzing. Such are the problems of pigment printing on photo media."

g

On 9/13/06, andre1moreau <bwscans@...> wrote:
> > Neil Snape has extensive experience with this printer and has posted a
> > review at his site.  He frequents the printing forum at dpreview and
> > promptly answers most queries about this printer.  His review can be
> > found here:
> >
> > http://www.neilsnape.com/HP9180_review.htm
> >
> > -Gary
> >
>
>
> Gary,
>
> I've read the review by Neil Shape from the link you've posted above.
> There's an item he listed in the "CON" section of his review:
>
>
> "Illuminant metameric on photo media especially B&W"
>
> Can any one explain what this means?
>
> Thanks,
> Andre
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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-- 
-Gary

In a message dated 9/13/06 5:27:48 PM, picnic@... writes:


> Now I print monos with the 2200 and QTR.  My concern is metamerism 
> primarily as I print on matte papers mostly.  What I would like is to be able to 
> print a toned mono image directly from PS, matching my calibrated monitor and 
> considering paper (using paper profiles)--basically in RGB I guess.    That 
> doesn't appear to be possible with any of the printers at this point.
> 
Actually that will be exactly possible with the Canon iPF5000, Epson 2400, 
and other K3 printers (no answer yet on the new HPs). Thats one workflow that 
PrintFIX PRO 2.0 offers. It also allows printing of neutral or toned prints from 
grayscale files, complete with screen preview of the results.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks David and Gary for your replies.

So, like some other printers, though not all, HP color pigment b&w
prints will suffer from metamerism.

Well, there may be a real opportunity here for a grayscale inket
support like those from MIS.

Paul ?


Thanks
Andre

I'm assuming this is different from the current Printfix Pro that's 
available now.  However, my wish is that I don't have to buy more hardware, 
software to make it possible to print toned images that I have done in PS 
and print them directly with little or no metamerism.   QTR allows me to 
print with basically no metamerism but I'm limited to working in an ICC 
profile of Roy's creation in PS, then converting to a matte or gloss profile 
to be used by QTR--and I can tone by blending, adjusting ink density, etc. 
One can also create their own profiles/curves with more hardware/software.

Not having used the ABW driver on the 2400, I understand that one selects a 
grayscale image, then can 'tone' within the ABW dirver.  Still--its using 
their 'tones'---not able to do split toning (I don't think), etc.  I would 
like to be able to work directly--no additional purchases, no 3rd party 
driver, etc.  I suspect I'll have to wait a good while LOL.

Thanks--I'll look for this product--I'm assuming that this is the one you 
mentioned would be introduced at PHotokina next week.

Diane

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <CDTobie@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] HP Photosmart Pro B9180 review at LL



Actually that will be exactly possible with the Canon iPF5000, Epson 2400,
and other K3 printers (no answer yet on the new HPs). Thats one workflow 
that
PrintFIX PRO 2.0 offers. It also allows printing of neutral or toned prints 
from
grayscale files, complete with screen preview of the results.

C. David Tobie

Andre---what I'm wondering about is---if one is going to 3rd party inks or 
3rd party software---are we not as well off to stick with what we have?  I'm 
not seeing the need of buying a new printer if I'm back to dealing with 
RIPs, 3rd party inksets, etc.--as I am now with the 2200.
Just a thought.

Diane

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andre Moreau" <bwscans@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:55 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: HP Photosmart Pro B9180 metamerism


Thanks David and Gary for your replies.

So, like some other printers, though not all, HP color pigment b&w
prints will suffer from metamerism.

Well, there may be a real opportunity here for a grayscale inket
support like those from MIS.

Paul ?


Thanks
Andre






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
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In a message dated 9/14/06 10:07:25 AM, bwscans@... writes:


> Well, there may be a real opportunity here for a grayscale inket
> support like those from MIS.
> 

Hmmm... I wonder how long ago it was that I suggested that to HP. The beauty 
of the situation with the HPs is that you can swap inks, and even heads, in a 
jiffy, with no ink loss to speak of. The difficulty with HP in the past was 
that the heads were part of the carts so no one could produce carts without 
violating head patents. Now, with seperate heads, third party carts should be 
straightforward. What is so sad about this is that with new Epson and Canon 
models, you don't need to swap inks for B&W... and HP could have done it that way 
too. But, like the Epson Photo/Matte Black swapping, we can hope for more 
effective solutions in the next generation.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>So, like some other printers, though not all, HP color pigment b&w
>prints will suffer from metamerism.

>Well, there may be a real opportunity here for a grayscale inket
>support like those from MIS.

There is some murmuring that the thermal heads are still more limited in
their viscosity than the Epson piezo heads.  I'd guess the third party
suppliers are near the front of the line to get their hands on these
printers and measure the inks.

The competition is great.  I'm waiting for them to combine the ABW and RGB
modes so that even in RGB the least possible color pigs are used.  Having
two modes looks like a temporary patch or way to work around defects in the
systems.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

In a message dated 9/14/06 10:39:40 AM, picnic@... writes:


> I'm assuming this is different from the current Printfix Pro that's
> available now.
> 
Correct, it is a software update with a range of new features.

>   However, my wish is that I don't have to buy more hardware,
> software to make it possible to print toned images that I have done in PS
> and print them directly with little or no metamerism. 
> 
Correct again: one of the workflows with PrintFIX PRO 2.0 is to allow you to 
tone your images in Photoshop, with screen preview, and print the results with 
virtually no metamerism on Epson K3 and Canon iPF5000. Side effects of this 
include the ability to use other's toning curves, both in Photoshop, and 
inported into PrintFIX PRO where they can be built into the profile for, and the 
ability to get the same tonalities on different media, or from different 
printers.

>   QTR allows me to
> print with basically no metamerism but I'm limited to working in an ICC
> profile of Roy's creation in PS, then converting to a matte or gloss profile
> to be used by QTR--and I can tone by blending, adjusting ink density, etc.
> One can also create their own profiles/curves with more hardware/software.
> 
These QTR "profiles" are actually curves hidden in a profile shell. And they 
are not automatic; meaning you have to experiment and tweak the curves to 
attempt to get neutrality throughout the grayramp, or a particular tint. The only 
thing that gets done in any sense automatically is linearization.
> 
> Not having used the ABW driver on the 2400, I understand that one selects a
> grayscale image, then can 'tone' within the ABW driver.
> 
Right, and this is similar with the Canon B&W mode. But this method is trial 
and error, does not preview in Photoshop, does not allow advanced cross tints, 
or feathering the tonality to paper white, or using curves for tinting, all 
of which are functions of PrintFIX PRO 2.0... nor does it measure and correct 
neutrality for precise gray balance.

>   Still--its using
> their 'tones'---not able to do split toning (I don't think), etc.
> 
Correct...

>   I would
> like to be able to work directly--no additional purchases, no 3rd party
> driver, etc.  I suspect I'll have to wait a good while LOL.
> 
Well, if you already own PrintFIX PRO (which you sort of implied at the 
beginning) then it will be a free software upgrade for you, and fairly soon. 
> 
> Thanks--I'll look for this product--I'm assuming that this is the one you
> mentioned would be introduced at PHotokina next week.
> 
> Yes, we'll be introducing this at Photokina, and I'll be demoing it all week 
there, with sample prints from a range of printers, on a range of media.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 9/14/06 10:49:05 AM, picnic@... writes:


> what I'm wondering about is---if one is going to 3rd party inks or
> 3rd party software---are we not as well off to stick with what we have?  I'm
> not seeing the need of buying a new printer if I'm back to dealing with
> RIPs, 3rd party inksets, etc.--as I am now with the 2200.
> 

Yes, gallery quality black and white printing is beginning to filter out into 
two categories:

Those willing to pay for an R2400 or above (above including the Canon 
iPF5000), and get both color and b&w from the same printer, with the same inks, and 
the OEM driver; and those who want cheaper b&w from an older model. Third party 
inks, specialty RIPs etc, are only needed for the second category.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 9/14/06 11:07:43 AM, paul.roark@... writes:


> The competition is great.  I'm waiting for them to combine the ABW and RGB
> modes so that even in RGB the least possible color pigs are used.  Having
> two modes looks like a temporary patch or way to work around defects in the
> systems.
> 

This is already the case: the RGB mode in the K3 printers and the iPF5000 
already base grays on the gray inks, so all you need is methods to control the 
color mode for black and white printing.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Udstrand"
<gudstrand.list@...> wrote:
> >
> > All the early reviews of this printer that I have seen have
> > consistently stated that the 9180 delivers exceptional B&W prints
> > superior to those from the Epson....
snip
...
> > Neil Snape has extensive experience with this printer and has posted a
> > review at his site.

I have yet to see any review from Reichman that demands as much as an
advanced worker from these producrs. Some of the reviews and work I've
seen there are even entry level, though those they are generally not his.
No doubt the site is a help to people, but there's no replacement for
these lists and the experience here, particularly for printing.

I've gotten a remarkable amount ot useful and expert information from Neil
Snape over the years, but his HP review has a disturbingly happy glow to
it and lacks a lot of picky inspection some of us might want.
"What more could you want from a fine art printer?" Well gosh golly gee!!!

I'd wait for expert user reports on this one, unless you have a guinea
pig's disposable income. The sites with a lot of product reviews are
turning into some strange business model all their own.

Tyler

Well taken Tyler, and for me his single remark about metamerism was 
enough for me to write this printer off.

David Meddings

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@...> wrote:

> 
> I've gotten a remarkable amount ot useful and expert information 
from Neil
> Snape over the years, but his HP review has a disturbingly happy 
glow to
> it and lacks a lot of picky inspection some of us might want.
> "What more could you want from a fine art printer?" Well gosh golly 
gee!!!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
...
> Yes, gallery quality black and white printing is beginning to filter
out into 
> two categories:
> 
> Those willing to pay for an R2400 or above (above including the Canon 
> iPF5000), and get both color and b&w from the same printer, with the
same inks, and 
> the OEM driver; and those who want cheaper b&w from an older model.
Third party 
> inks, specialty RIPs etc, are only needed for the second category.

David, I have to say I think you've left out the best monochromatic
printers in the country, producing gallery and museum quality work...
Though the some of the tools mentioned in your second catagory apply,
the printers used are not cheap nor or the inks.
Perhaps there is another catagory?
Tyler

So--what you are saying is that I AM better off buying the newer 2400 than 
sticking with the 2200/RIPs, et.al.

Diane


> what I'm wondering about is---if one is going to 3rd party inks or
> 3rd party software---are we not as well off to stick with what we have? 
> I'm
> not seeing the need of buying a new printer if I'm back to dealing with
> RIPs, 3rd party inksets, etc.--as I am now with the 2200.
>

Yes, gallery quality black and white printing is beginning to filter out 
into
two categories:

Those willing to pay for an R2400 or above (above including the Canon
iPF5000), and get both color and b&w from the same printer, with the same 
inks, and
the OEM driver; and those who want cheaper b&w from an older model. Third 
party
inks, specialty RIPs etc, are only needed for the second category.

C. David Tobie

In a message dated 9/14/06 2:33:20 PM, picnic@... writes:


> So--what you are saying is that I AM better off buying the newer 2400 than
> sticking with the 2200/RIPs, et.al.
> 
> >Yes, gallery quality black and white printing is beginning to filter out
> >into two categories:
> 
> >Those willing to pay for an R2400 or above (above including the Canon
> >iPF5000), and get both color and b&w from the same printer, with the same
> >inks, and the OEM driver; and those who want cheaper b&w from an older 
> model. 
> >Third party inks, specialty RIPs etc, are only needed for the second 
> category.
> 
Not necessarily; if you already own a printer that you'd like to devote to B&
W, or if you already have one set up for it, then that may be ideal for you. 
But if you want to print gallery quality B&W on the same machine as color, 
using the same process, then the 2400, or the other new two gray printers will 
offer that capability. Personally, I prefer the convenience and flexibility of 
the newer solutions, but there are many very happy users of other systems. 

If I were looking to buy a printer, then I would definately lean towards the 
Epson K3 printers or Canon iPF5000, given the options they allow. If you need 
somethings smaller, or older, less expensive, or already in hand, than the 
other systems will certainly be of interest.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, I've been looking at the 2400 for several months but was also hoping 
that the Canon A3 pig printer would come out to have 'choices'.  I 
understand that its 2007--but that could mean as much as 18 months.  I'm not 
sure I'm THAT patient LOL.  I have to admit that I've backed off the 
9180--unless there are some excellent reviews by users that have printed 
with the K3 inks and find it better.  That probably won't happen *smile*.

Diane

<<<<If I were looking to buy a printer, then I would definately lean towards 
the
Epson K3 printers or Canon iPF5000, given the options they allow. If you 
need
somethings smaller, or older, less expensive, or already in hand, than the
other systems will certainly be of interest.>>>>>>

C. David Tobie

Hi Diane,

Just my two cents: If I were looking to print both b&w and color I'd go with the Epson 
2400. The Canon sounds exciting but I would be a bit nervous jumping on it simply 
because thorough reviews addressing all the bugs and quirks and their solutions are not 
available yet. The 2400 is a known beast at this point, though beast hardly seems the apt 
description form everyone's almost unanimous praise.

Btw, I only print b&w and love my 2200 to pieces. ;)

Good luck with your choice!
Sarah


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Diane Fields" <picnic@...> 
wrote:

>
> Well, I've been looking at the 2400 for several months but was also hoping 
> that the Canon A3 pig printer would come out to have 'choices'.  I 
> understand that its 2007--but that could mean as much as 18 months.  I'm not 
> sure I'm THAT patient LOL.  I have to admit that I've backed off the 
> 9180--unless there are some excellent reviews by users that have printed 
> with the K3 inks and find it better.  That probably won't happen *smile*.
> 
> Diane
> 
> <<<<If I were looking to buy a printer, then I would definately lean towards 
> the
> Epson K3 printers or Canon iPF5000, given the options they allow. If you 
> need
> somethings smaller, or older, less expensive, or already in hand, than the
> other systems will certainly be of interest.>>>>>>
> 
> C. David Tobie
>

In a message dated 9/14/06 3:05:02 PM, picnic@... writes:


> Well, I've been looking at the 2400 for several months but was also hoping
> that the Canon A3 pig printer would come out to have 'choices'.
> 
Since I don't have to purchase printers out of a personal entertainment 
budget, I lean towards the large cartridge models, so the two to compare are the 
Epson 4800 and the Canon iPF5000. Both have large carts so that you can do a run 
of prints without having small carts run out of ink in the middle. Both do 
great color and B&W output, with the edge for B&W linearity and color gamut 
going to the Canon. Its built less like a stand-based printer, and more like a 
desktop printer than the 4800 (more plasticy, less rugged) and is wider, with the 
12 ink carts, and can't take oversize carts (the 4800 comes with 110s, but 
can use 220s, the Canon comes with 130s, and thats the only choice). 

The roll feed on the Canon is an option, not a built in feature, but then, 
you can use it at the same time as the cassette, so there's some convenience 
there. The real convenience is the cassette itself. While each sheet must be fed 
to the 4800(7800/9800) one at a time (meaning production printing is roll 
only) the iPF5000 can have sheets stacked in the cassette. What papers will 
actually feed from the cassette, and what media settings the Paper Nazi will let you 
use from the cassette (yes, Canon has lots of Paper Nazi features in the 
driver too...) will determine whether this will work for you, or if you will be 
stuck feeding sheets from the single sheet slot at the back, which is prone to 
frequent (I'm tempted to say continuous) errors, which, for variety's sake, 
include Skew errors, to Paper Jam errors, to Cannot Detect Sheet Size errors. A 
good, flat sheet might take three or four tries to load... so I can't consider 
the sheet feed (which is the only option for thick and stiff sheets) to be 
production oriented.

So there are many factors to compare and consider (I only scratched the 
surface here) in deciding which printer fits your particular needs. Now we just 
need to find out if the other upcoming Canon models will have two grays, of if 
that second gray is one of the carts sacrificed...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 9/14/06 3:05:02 PM, picnic@... writes:
>  Both do 
> great color and B&W output, with the edge for B&W linearity and color 
gamut 
> going to the Canon. 

Do you mean when using oem inks with oem rgb driver and PFP 2.0, oem 
inks and driver (rgb or b/w mode) , or when using rip such as QTR or 
Studioprint and 3rd party inks such as Cone Quads,K6,K7 or MIS Quads or 
variable tone ink?
Please define how you arrive at your conclusion.

In a message dated 9/15/06 8:03:13 PM, photo692002@... writes:


> >  Both do
> > great color and B&W output, with the edge for B&W linearity and color
> gamut
> > going to the Canon.
> 
> Do you mean when using oem inks with oem rgb driver and PFP 2.0, oem
> inks and driver (rgb or b/w mode) , or when using rip such as QTR or
> Studioprint and 3rd party inks such as Cone Quads,K6,K7 or MIS Quads or
> variable tone ink?
> Please define how you arrive at your conclusion.
> 
OEM inks, OEM drivers. These printers really don't need special inksets 
(which would limit them to B&W only), nore do they need special drivers or RIPs 
(they have the clever gray generation functions for low metamerism B&W already 
built into the RGB drivers) that previous generations of printers required for 
good black and white.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does this mean the Epson 2400 is back a generation?

http://www.inkjetart.com/hp/B9180/index.html

"Our own tests found the HP B9180 prints to be quite neutral in their
grayscale reproduction, even when using all seven colors. When the HP
printer driver is set to print with only the black and light gray inks, the
results are indeed more neutral than Epson's "Advanced B&W" setting, which
does use some of the light colors (light cyan, light magenta and yellow) to
help make their grays -- whereas the prints using the HP Vivera inks showed
only gray and black dots at high magnification. Even with two inks (black &
light gray), the tonal range was smooth and rich -- albeit slightly less
rich than Epson's "Advanced B&W", which has one more black, and cheats by
adding 3 more light colors! (The following two images were scanned from 1/8"
x 1/8" sections of their respective B9180 and R2400 prints -- and show how
neutral HP's carbon black Vivera inks are.)"

On 9/13/06, CDTobie@... <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> For Black and White? Reichman is amazing lenient on that point, noting
> that
> the B9180 produces "nice" b&w but with no controls or adjustments. He also
> doesn't comment on whether this printer's one gray ink is used to blend
> light
> grays, or whether they are built from Light Cyan, Light Magenta, and
> Yellow (which
> would push this printer back a generation in b&w technology).




-- 
-Gary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi David,

>...  These printers really don't need special inksets 
>(which would limit them to B&W only), 
> nor do they need special drivers or RIPs 

>(they have the clever gray generation functions for 
> low metamerism B&W already built into the RGB drivers) ...

Just looking at the K3 printers, the ABW workflow appears to use much more
LLK in the highlights than does the RGB workflow.  On the other hand, even
the ABW workflow uses more color inks than are necessary to neutralize the
carbon, and that -- the use of as little color ink as possible -- would seem
to be the goal for the best B&W printing, if not all printing.

The more color inks that are in the image, the more those images will still
have many of the problems, though in lesser amounts, that we have objected
to in color-ink-based B&W from the outset, including metamerism,
cross-overs, differential fading, and more rapid fading.

So, while advances in the ability to accurately profile these printers will
be a most welcomed step, what I think is needed is the reduction of the
amount of color inks in the B&W images.  

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think that as long as a workflow uses
the OEM driver and OEM inkset, the amount of color ink injected is strictly
within the OEM drivers' control, and not an issue that any ICC or other
profile can deal with.  

A RIP that controls the individual jets, of course, can avoid the problem of
too much color.  Likewise, a dedicated B&W inkset can deal with the problem
even with the OEM driver being used with an "RGB" workflow.  However, short
of these approaches, aren't we stuck with the excess color inks as long as
we use the OEM inkset and OEM driver? 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

In a message dated 9/19/06 9:59:01 AM, gudstrand.list@... writes:


> Does this mean the Epson 2400 is back a generation?
> 
> http://www.inkjetart.com/hp/B9180/index.html
> 
> "Our own tests found the HP B9180 prints to be quite neutral in their
> grayscale reproduction, even when using all seven colors. When the HP
> printer driver is set to print with only the black and light gray inks, the
> results are indeed more neutral than Epson's "Advanced B&W" setting, which
> does use some of the light colors (light cyan, light magenta and yellow) to
> help make their grays
> 

Epson is at the head of the pack, offering variable toning with minimal 
amounts of color as needed. The HP in question prints only straight gray and 
blacks. Such inks have a carbon tint, that varies with the media involved. The 
latest Canon's function much like the Epson K3s; we'll see what the 12 ink HPs 
offer at Photokina (and the latest Epson too...)

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 9/19/06, CDTobie@... <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 9/19/06 9:59:01 AM, gudstrand.list@... writes:
>
>
> > Does this mean the Epson 2400 is back a generation?
> >
> > http://www.inkjetart.com/hp/B9180/index.html
> >
> > "Our own tests found the HP B9180 prints to be quite neutral in their
> > grayscale reproduction, even when using all seven colors. When the HP
> > printer driver is set to print with only the black and light gray inks,
> the
> > results are indeed more neutral than Epson's "Advanced B&W" setting,
> which
> > does use some of the light colors (light cyan, light magenta and yellow)
> to
> > help make their grays
> >
>
> Epson is at the head of the pack, offering variable toning with minimal
> amounts of color as needed. The HP in question prints only straight gray
> and
> blacks. Such inks have a carbon tint, that varies with the media involved.
> The
> latest Canon's function much like the Epson K3s; we'll see what the 12 ink
> HPs
> offer at Photokina (and the latest Epson too...)


Are you saying that the HP cannot print black and white with variable
toning?  I thought that the use of the colored inks with B&W was the default
in the HP print driver.  Have you used the HP?  Like most I have not seen
any prints from it.  I have heard good things about the printer from those
who have it and have reviewed it, I am curious why your opinion seems to
negative in regard to the 9180.  In a perfect world we could all buy the new
Canon but for some of us the $2,000 price tag is a show stopper.  The cost
of the Epson at $850 (plus RIP) is also a lot more than the HP.  If
reasonable output can be attained from the HP it seems like a great printer
for many.  I also seems that its presence has already had an impact on
prices and features of other printers as well.  This can only be a good
thing, can't it?

-- 
-Gary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 9/19/06 12:48:15 PM, paul.roark@... writes:


> Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think that as long as a workflow uses
> the OEM driver and OEM inkset, the amount of color ink injected is strictly
> within the OEM drivers' control, and not an issue that any ICC or other
> profile can deal with. 
> 

Correct, but the latest Epson and Canon printers use sufficiently gray-based 
blends for light grays to limit metamerism, and offer very acceptable prints. 
Its a great step forward from the previous generation 
(2100/2200/4000/7600/9600) in combined color/B&W print functions in the same printer. At Photokina we 
will have a light booth with multiple light sources, so that its possible to 
see what degree of variation occurs in such prints... its pretty acceptable. As 
I said to Tyler earlier on this topic: no doubt those with a big investment 
in specialty inks and RIPs will wish to continue using them, those looking for 
a simpler solution will want to examine the new alternatives.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 9/19/06 2:54:16 PM, gudstrand.list@... writes:


> Are you saying that the HP cannot print black and white with variable
> toning?  I thought that the use of the colored inks with B&W was the default
> in the HP print driver.  Have you used the HP?
> 
No but I hope to work with them next week at Photokina. Their own description 
is that the B&W mode uses only black and gray inks. The experience of those 
on this list is that such prints tend to be 'carbon tinted' not neutral, and 
that the exact tint varies with the media in question. Thats what using bits of 
color ink along with blacks and grays is all about...

>   Like most I have not seen
> any prints from it.  I have heard good things about the printer from those
> who have it and have reviewed it, I am curious why your opinion seems to
> negative in regard to the 9180.
> 
Negative only in terms of what its fundamental printing methods are, based on 
HPs descriptions of number of inks, and methods of B&W. I'd love to be 
suprised and find it superior to expectations.

>   In a perfect world we could all buy the new
> Canon but for some of us the $2,000 price tag is a show stopper.
> 
$1800; but who's counting... <G>

>   The cost
> of the Epson at $850 (plus RIP) is also a lot more than the HP.
> 
But why a RIP... the beauty of the new   two-gray printers is that they can 
do both color and B&W, via the driver...

>   If
> reasonable output can be attained from the HP it seems like a great printer
> for many.  I also seems that its presence has already had an impact on
> prices and features of other printers as well.  This can only be a good
> thing, can't it?
> 
The upcoming 12 ink HPs may be a good thing indeed. I'll have to actually use 
the 8 ink models to see if they transcend current results from single-gray 
ink printers. Early reports of significant metamerism don't bode well, however.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 9/19/06, CDTobie@... <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 9/19/06 2:54:16 PM, gudstrand.list@... writes:
>
>
> > Are you saying that the HP cannot print black and white with variable
> > toning? I thought that the use of the colored inks with B&W was the
> default
> > in the HP print driver. Have you used the HP?
> >
> No but I hope to work with them next week at Photokina. Their own
> description
> is that the B&W mode uses only black and gray inks. The experience of
> those
> on this list is that such prints tend to be 'carbon tinted' not neutral,
> and
> that the exact tint varies with the media in question. Thats what using
> bits of
> color ink along with blacks and grays is all about...
>
>
The HP does use colored ink depending on what is selected in the driver.
Either way all the reports I have seen have indicated that the prints from
the HP are very neutral.  I understand that the reviewers are subject to
bias like everyone but they are the only ones (at this time) basing their
opinions on experience, experience with the printer and its output that is.
I may have read something into your posts that was not there but it seems to
me that you have not made it very clear that you are basing your comments on
nothing more than speculation.

I have posted a couple of reviews, others have posted additional reviews.
You seem to have a reputation on this list and your words can and do
influence opinions.  I think it is only fair if you are going to continue to
spread FUD that you make it clear that your speculation is not based on any
experience with the printer, nor on a clear understanding of the operation
of the printer.  If there is an issue with the current reviews I would love
to hear your comments about their shortcomings or at least address the
critical parts of the reviews that you find deficient.

HP's description about the B&W clearly states that the printer can use
either black and gray inks or a composite of inks when printing grayscale.
To eliminate the redness inherent in carbon inks HP has added blue to the
carbon black.  While other carbon ink sets may suffer from a tint issue it
is clear that HP has taken steps to correct it.  You may disagree with the
reviewers and/or the HP documentation about the effectiveness but you really
cannot claim that there is an issue unless you have some information to
counter what is currently available.

I am basing my comments on the printer user manual which can be found here:

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/manualCategory?product=1142684&lc=en&cc=us&dlc=en&lang=en&cc=us

And Neil Snapes review here :

http://www.neilsnape.com/HP9180_review.htm

Again, I would love to look at the documentation to which you have based
your comments.   This printer is new and information regarding its
performance is just starting to trickle out, any information that can help
with a purchase decision would be welcome.  Again, I am no expert and
welcome a discourse.  If I have misunderstood what I have read, either
reviews or specifications or your comments I would more than welcome
enlightenment.

-- 
-Gary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 9/19/06 12:48:15 PM, paul.roark@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think that as long as a workflow uses
> > the OEM driver and OEM inkset, the amount of color ink injected is strictly
> > within the OEM drivers' control, and not an issue that any ICC or other
> > profile can deal with. 
> > 
> 
> Correct, but the latest Epson and Canon printers use sufficiently gray-based 
> blends for light grays to limit metamerism, and offer very acceptable prints. 
> Its a great step forward from the previous generation 
> (2100/2200/4000/7600/9600) in combined color/B&W print functions in the same 
printer. At Photokina we 
> will have a light booth with multiple light sources, so that its possible to 
> see what degree of variation occurs in such prints... its pretty acceptable. As 
> I said to Tyler earlier on this topic: no doubt those with a big investment 
> in specialty inks and RIPs will wish to continue using them, those looking for 
> a simpler solution will want to examine the new alternatives.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Division
> DataColor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 

I think its all going to boil down to what level of "very/pretty acceptable" do people
want.  The B&W community is by far the most critical about color casts and
metamerism.  Certainly the K3 printer/drivers are a lot better than the older UC ones,
but they still don't use the minimum amount of color pigments.  The fact that they
have an ABW mode is evidence that the RGB mode isn't as good for B&W.

The substitution of a pure light-carbon ink for the yellow is the most ingenius idea.  It
single-handedly eliminates the yellow pigments and minimizes the cyan and magenta
pigments.  The only down side is that you really need to make completely new custom
ICC profiles for that setup.

Roy

In a message dated 9/20/06 5:46:53 PM, roy@... writes:


> I think its all going to boil down to what level of "very/pretty 
> acceptable" do people
> want.  The B&W community is by far the most critical about color casts and
> metamerism.  Certainly the K3 printer/drivers are a lot better than the 
> older UC ones,
> but they still don't use the minimum amount of color pigments.  The fact 
> that they
> have an ABW mode is evidence that the RGB mode isn't as good for B&W.
> 
No, I think its evidence that they can't find neutral with both hands, so 
instituted another mode instead. My goal is to find neutral with one hand (one 
holding a spectro) and build an ICC profile thats good enough to make the color 
mode neutral. So far my prints through the color mode are more neutral than   
prints through the B&W mode, plus all the other advantages of control and 
preview from the ICC process.
> 
> The substitution of a pure light-carbon ink for the yellow is the most 
> ingenius idea.  It
> single-handedly eliminates the yellow pigments and minimizes the cyan and 
> magenta
> pigments.  The only down side is that you really need to make completely new 
> custom
> ICC profiles for that setup.
> 
Its very interesting, and I plan to test it as soon as the requisite carts 
arrive, which may or may not be before Photokina...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

After reading more B9180 reviews in view of the wide format 
models announced today I think this thread ended too soon.

Some aspects of the printer that have not been mentioned:

pro:

there's 16 bit rendering in the (plug-in) driver for B&W if I 
read the following interview correctly:
http://www.pma-show.com/2006/interviews/hp_photosmart_b9180/001_marvin_gross_nany_pilcher.html

Unlike with other printer models the use of light magenta 
isn't the highest of all colors, Vivera Light Gray ink is 
often used up to 2.5 times more than the other colors 
according to HP
http://www.inkjetart.com/news/archive/IJN_07-27-06.html
To me an indication that HP is substituting a lot of the 
composite grey with this grey ink (more than the competition) 
and that grey ink is already made more neutral in the cart 
(which makes the first possible too), both should be a good 
thing for B&W printing. Pictures of B&W output show grey ink 
only but it will be interesting to see to what degree it is 
happening in color printing

con:
sharing the same heads the wide format models get is probably 
the reason why it has a minimum droplet that seems to be 
bigger than the competition has on 13" printers.


This doesn't make it a good A3 B&W printer right away but the 
same technology + the extra grey ink + gloss enhancer in the 
Z3100 models will be enough to bring the Z3100 printers at the 
front of the wide format models for B&W printing. In that 
range a minimum droplet size of 4 picoliter is sufficient. How 
good the Z2100 8 ink models are on B&W printing if compared to 
other 24-44" models could be checked with the B9180, there 
will not be much difference other than the even more advanced 
color calibration of the wide format models.

Ernst
                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
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