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2006-09-30 by Clayton Jones
Interesting interview with the HP product managers of these new printers. https://www.luminous-landscape.com/photokina/index.shtml Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2006-09-30 by john dean
You know what is odd about that video? It doesn't discuss the fact that HP has more than doubled the print life of pigment inks over both Epson and Canon while at least equaling their gamut? Which means no spraying for fading or gloss issues. Strange that the marketing people in Barcelona didn't even mention it! To me that is a lot more significant than internal profile creation, as nice as that may be. john --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote: > > Interesting interview with the HP product managers of these new printers.
> > https://www.luminous-landscape.com/photokina/index.shtml > > > > Regards, > Clayton > > > Info on black and white digital printing at > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm >
2006-09-30 by James Irelan
On Sep 30, 2006, at 12:39 PM, Clayton Jones wrote: > Interesting interview with the HP product managers of these new > printers. > > https://www.luminous-landscape.com/photokina/index.shtml Interesting. The inclusion of the spectro took me by surprise- certainly a nice surprise for someone not already invested in profiling gear, but even for us already owning such gear, the ease factor of profiling would be attractive, not to mention that maybe a dedicated system like that might work better than a generic one? especially considering the gloss differential and until third party twelve ink systems become available- if anyone even bothers working on them. It's hard to imagine some small third party ink company going after HP on that score, or me taking a chance on some non-OEM inks for a printer like this (especially after all my problems with Lyson ink in a 7600), but maybe someone will. As the rep suggested, though, how much better could gamut get? 14 inks? 16? When original Generations in an 1160 looked good to me? Hard to imagine that I'd make a print with this HP printer and think yeah, looks ok, but I could use more gamut... this assumes that all other things are equal, of course: that the spectro and profiling part works well, and that there is no problem with the inks in terms of the standard problems we all know about. Have the price points of these printers been announced? How about the Epson 12 ink printers mentioned- if they've been announced, I missed it. James [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-10-01 by Jim Goshorn
On Sep 30, 2006, at 2:52 PM, James Irelan wrote: > Have the price points of these printers been announced? Designjet Z2100: $3,395 (24″) and $5,595 (44″) Designjet Z3100: $4,095 (24″) and $6,295 (44″) Jim
2006-10-01 by Steve Kale
But is this real? Do we have any independent testing? (playing catch up here)
From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 18:26:15 -0000
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: VideoBlog on new HP Self-Profiling Printers
You know what is odd about that video? It doesn't discuss the fact
that HP has more than doubled the print life of pigment inks over
both Epson and Canon while at least equaling their gamut? Which means
no spraying for fading or gloss issues. Strange that the marketing
people in Barcelona didn't even mention it! To me that is a lot more
significant than internal profile creation, as nice as that may be.
john
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-10-01 by john dean
They hired Wilhelm to test the inks before they announced the printers and the data is on his site. The HP pigments had been rated much higher than Epson in the past also, only there was the problem with non HP media compatability. Now people are going to say he is in bed with HP I guess. He rated Canon and Epson about the same in longevity and much better color for HP. Black and white have all three doing very well thanks to the carbon content they all use now. We'll see. john --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote: > > But is this real? Do we have any independent testing? (playing catch up > here) > > > > From: john dean <deanwork2003@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 18:26:15 -0000 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: VideoBlog on new HP Self-Profiling Printers > > > > > > You know what is odd about that video? It doesn't discuss the fact > that HP has more than doubled the print life of pigment inks over > both Epson and Canon while at least equaling their gamut? Which means
> no spraying for fading or gloss issues. Strange that the marketing > people in Barcelona didn't even mention it! To me that is a lot more > significant than internal profile creation, as nice as that may be. > > john > > > . > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2006-10-01 by Paul Roark
If this http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/PhotosmartProB9180.html is the Wilhelm test that is being used for support, I don't see anything that is all that impressive for B&W. It's great to see the competition, but I just do not see any breakthrough that will cause us all to dump our current printers. Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> . The HP pigments had been rated much higher than Epson in the past also, only there was the problem with non HP media compatability. Now people are going to say he is in bed with HP I guess. He rated Canon and Epson about the same in longevity and much better color for HP. Black and white have all three doing very well thanks to the carbon content they all use now. We'll see. john --- In DigitalBlackandWhit <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote: > > But is this real? Do we have any independent testing? (playing catch up > here) > > . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-10-01 by john dean
Don't know if the HP mechanics will pan out or not, but it is worth watching I know that. Every since Cone started using carbon pigment for quad prints and all the other companies began reverse engineering his developments, right, there hasn't been that much radical movement in black and white permanency. What I was talking about was color, >240 years without uv filtration or spray for a good color gamut is if true a major improvement over everyone. John
2006-10-01 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote: > What I was talking about was color, >240 years without uv > filtration or spray for a good color gamut is if true a major > improvement over everyone. > > John > Very true. I have mixed feelings about the built in spectro. You do still need to let the ink dry before measuring it, so having it built into the printer may not be the best idea. I worked with a guy in London to make some profiles for his HP DJ130. He found that the self calibration was very different if he let the print dry for a couple of days before running it back through the printer to be measured. Normally the print only dries for a few moments before it gets measured. He found much less blocking in the near black areas by letting it dry. If they want to give the users the ability to do things like this, I think it would be better if they had just included the hand operated spectro in the box with the printer. Just my opinion... take it for what it's worth.
2006-10-02 by Steven Karafyllakis
Greg, I believe the profiling can be done in two stages-print the target, take it out & let it dry, then continue with the reading. I hope it works with 3rd party inks, we are all better off having those guys around for an alrtenative-regardles of the niggling little problems that come along. Steve Karafyllakis
>I have mixed feelings about the built in spectro. You do > still need to let the ink dry before measuring it, so having it built > into the printer may not be the best idea.
2006-10-02 by john dean
Greg, I belive he is right. They say 20 minutes from start to finish if you do it in one step. But they have already incorporated an easy two step process into the driver where you can wait as long as you want before reading the patches an creating the icc. I guess we'll find out before long. John
> >I have mixed feelings about the built in spectro. You do > > still need to let the ink dry before measuring it, so having it built > > into the printer may not be the best idea. >
2006-10-02 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote: > > Greg, > > I belive he is right. They say 20 minutes from start to finish if you > do it in one step. But they have already incorporated an easy two step > process into the driver where you can wait as long as you want before > reading the patches an creating the icc. I guess we'll find out before > long. > > John > > Well that would be a vast improvement over what they offer in the DJ130. I wonder if you can easily get the reading back out, and what kind of different targets it can use? It would be a shame if it only worked with HP targets and software. Otherwise you could buy the printer just to use the spectro... How much does that iO and i1 combo cost??? The printer is less money!
2006-10-02 by john dean
Well that's true and if it all works well very cool. However, if youare like you and I and have more than one machine that you work with you still need a spectro for other machines and other inksets, but it certainly is interesting. John
> > > > > > Well that would be a vast improvement over what they offer in the > DJ130. I wonder if you can easily get the reading back out, and what > kind of different targets it can use? It would be a shame if it only > worked with HP targets and software. Otherwise you could buy the > printer just to use the spectro... How much does that iO and i1 combo > cost??? The printer is less money! >
2006-10-02 by kraazy_larry
I don't believe that you can get anything out the measuring information. Looks like it is all done behind the scene. Although they aren't saying this directly I would guess that from the low patch count (600 and something?) of the the printer target, you only will be able to have a profile for the printer that you can use in perceptually. Nothing else. Even with the add on profiling software it looks like you will only be able to have a perceptual profile. Nothing is in the details about if the standard profiling software will allow for different viewing conditions AFAIK? Add on software allows for two but it looks like you may be able to add more from the description as I read it. Most of the details still leave me with more questions at this point in time but the profiling software looks like a limited version of Eye-One Design to me. One thing that I found false is that they say, "Integrate one of a range of commercially available photo RIPs, such as the ImagePrint v.6 RIP from ColorByte. This RIP gives you advanced options, including advanced multiple-image placement, black-and-white split- toning, and PostScript®& PDF printing." ColorByte striped out the PostScript and PDF file printing feature in December of last year saying that (to paraphrase) their users didn't need the capability. So... What is real? Guess we have to stay tuned for further developments as they say. Larry --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
> > Well that would be a vast improvement over what they offer in the > DJ130. I wonder if you can easily get the reading back out, and what > kind of different targets it can use? It would be a shame if it only > worked with HP targets and software. Otherwise you could buy the > printer just to use the spectro... How much does that iO and i1 combo > cost??? The printer is less money! >
2006-10-02 by John Moody
I read that if you have the rgb text file, you can use the printer as an automated chart reader. That remains to be seen . Since its based on an eye-one spectro, and X-rite profiling software, it may be open to much more functionality than just profiling the printer alone. Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of john dean Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:17 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: VideoBlog on new HP Self-Profiling Printers Well that's true and if it all works well very cool. However, if youare like you and I and have more than one machine that you work with you still need a spectro for other machines and other inksets, but it certainly is interesting. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-10-02 by Ernst Dinkla
Greg wrote:
> Well that would be a vast improvement over what they offer in the
> DJ130. I wonder if you can easily get the reading back out, and what
> kind of different targets it can use? It would be a shame if it only
> worked with HP targets and software. Otherwise you could buy the
> printer just to use the spectro... How much does that iO and i1 combo
> cost??? The printer is less money!
It has a calibration stage where all the inks are measured by
the internal Eye One with UV filter. 10 minutes. After that a
profiling step can be done which takes 20 minutes with some
time drying but that 550-700? patches target can also be
measured after any time of drying. Of course you can also do
both: make a profile right away so you can start printing and
let the target dry afterwards for a more precise profiling. I
guess you can also calibrate from time to time to keep older
profiles up to date. GMB cooperated with HP on the profiling
software. RGB profiling. Distribution of the profiles from a
harddisk on the printer to the systems connected to it with
the internal Ethernet connection. Harddisk also gives the
systems back faster as it will spool the rest of the print
jobs. There will be extra software if needed for CMYK
profiling etc.
I think you can use the HP as an auto spectrometer for other
printers too. Depends on how the target is described and where
it is hidden. Any other profiling system outside will work
too. Of
course if the profiles are bound to work only within that
system then it will be far less universal. An Eye One with iO
costs 4000 Euro now, 60% of the price of the Z3100 44", and
more than the Z2100 24" price.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-10-02 by john dean
It's hard to image HP spending that kind of r&d money and making that kind of an alliance with Greytag and Hahnemuhle if this spectro thing didn't function properly. It would be crazy to release something like that that didn't work well because with all the other features of the printer, they don't need it to be successful. john
> I think you can use the HP as an auto spectrometer for other > printers too. Depends on how the target is described and where > it is hidden. Any other profiling system outside will work > too. Of > course if the profiles are bound to work only within that > system then it will be far less universal. An Eye One with iO > costs 4000 Euro now, 60% of the price of the Z3100 44", and > more than the Z2100 24" price. > > > Ernst > -- > Ernst Dinkla > > > www.pigment-print.com > ( unvollendet ) >
2006-10-02 by John Custodio
Ernst- Do you know whether or not you can choose rendering intents when you print with the built in profiler? I read somewhere that you could only use perceptual. -John --- Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote: > It has a calibration stage where all the inks are > measured by > the internal Eye One with UV filter. 10 minutes. > After that a > profiling step can be done which takes 20 minutes > with some > time drying but that 550-700? patches target can > also be > measured after any time of drying. Of course you can > also do > both: make a profile right away so you can start > printing and > let the target dry afterwards for a more precise > profiling. I > guess you can also calibrate from time to time to > keep older > profiles up to date. GMB cooperated with HP on the > profiling > software. RGB profiling. Distribution of the > profiles from a > harddisk on the printer to the systems connected to > it with > the internal Ethernet connection. Harddisk also > gives the > systems back faster as it will spool the rest of the > print > jobs. There will be extra software if needed for > CMYK > profiling etc. > > I think you can use the HP as an auto spectrometer > for other > printers too. Depends on how the target is described > and where > it is hidden. Any other profiling system outside > will work > too. Of > course if the profiles are bound to work only within > that > system then it will be far less universal. An Eye > One with iO > costs 4000 Euro now, 60% of the price of the Z3100 > 44", and > more than the Z2100 24" price. > > > Ernst > -- > Ernst Dinkla > > > www.pigment-print.com > ( unvollendet ) > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
2006-10-02 by Ernst Dinkla
John Custodio wrote:
> Ernst-
> Do you know whether or not you can choose rendering
> intents when you print with the built in profiler? I
> read somewhere that you could only use perceptual.
> -John
That would surprise me very much. You don't add CM hard and
software to a printer and cut 3 fingers of its right hand
after that. It would be a very artificial limitation. But I
didn't check the color driver (thinking that that could only
be good) as I was more interested in the B&W driver at the
Photokina.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-10-02 by dlruckus
I agree with you Greg. I found that sometimes several days were needed to get full drydown as well. In my case the differences were shown not only via instrument but were readily visible between a fresh print and one several days old side by side. They were not related to local humidity level either as that was fully controled. Regards Duane --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
> > Very true. I have mixed feelings about the built in spectro. You do > still need to let the ink dry before measuring it, so having it built > into the printer may not be the best idea. I worked with a guy in > London to make some profiles for his HP DJ130. He found that the self > calibration was very different if he let the print dry for a couple of > days before running it back through the printer to be measured. > Normally the print only dries for a few moments before it gets > measured. He found much less blocking in the near black areas by > letting it dry. > > If they want to give the users the ability to do things like this, I > think it would be better if they had just included the hand operated > spectro in the box with the printer. Just my opinion... take it for > what it's worth. >
2006-10-02 by john dean
Is forced drying with a hair drier out of the question. john --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@...> wrote:
> > I agree with you Greg. I found that sometimes several days were needed > to get full drydown as well. In my case the differences were shown not > only via instrument but were readily visible between a fresh print and > one several days old side by side. They were not related to local > humidity level either as that was fully controled. > > Regards > Duane > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" > <dfaprinting@> wrote: > > > > > Very true. I have mixed feelings about the built in spectro. You do > > still need to let the ink dry before measuring it, so having it built > > into the printer may not be the best idea. I worked with a guy in > > London to make some profiles for his HP DJ130. He found that the self > > calibration was very different if he let the print dry for a couple of > > days before running it back through the printer to be measured. > > Normally the print only dries for a few moments before it gets > > measured. He found much less blocking in the near black areas by > > letting it dry. > > > > If they want to give the users the ability to do things like this, I > > think it would be better if they had just included the hand operated > > spectro in the box with the printer. Just my opinion... take it for > > what it's worth. > > >
2006-10-02 by Paul Roark
>Is forced drying with a hair drier out of the question. That's what I do. Life is too short to wait days between iterations. However, I do notice small shifts still. Usually the carbon warms just a bit. I don't find it that much of a problem for the B&W I'm doing. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2006-10-03 by dlruckus
I should think that would work fine. I generaly don't have any serious time constraints so just let them sit around awhile. For me the main difficulty with the issue is my impatience when dealing with work prints with subtle near neutral toning. When I'm in a printing streak, I don't even like taking the time to drag out a hair dryer and plugging it in. Sad commentary but true. Regards Duane --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote: > > Is forced drying with a hair drier out of the question. > > john > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" > <dlruckus@> wrote: > > > > I agree with you Greg. I found that sometimes several days were needed > > to get full drydown as well. In my case the differences were shown not > > only via instrument but were readily visible between a fresh print and > > one several days old side by side. They were not related to local > > humidity level either as that was fully controled. > > > > Regards > > Duane > > > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" > > <dfaprinting@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Very true. I have mixed feelings about the built in spectro. You do > > > still need to let the ink dry before measuring it, so having it built > > > into the printer may not be the best idea. I worked with a guy in > > > London to make some profiles for his HP DJ130. He found that the self > > > calibration was very different if he let the print dry for a couple of
> > > days before running it back through the printer to be measured. > > > Normally the print only dries for a few moments before it gets > > > measured. He found much less blocking in the near black areas by > > > letting it dry. > > > > > > If they want to give the users the ability to do things like this, I > > > think it would be better if they had just included the hand operated > > > spectro in the box with the printer. Just my opinion... take it for > > > what it's worth. > > > > > >
2006-10-04 by Ernst Dinkla
Paul Roark wrote:
>> Is forced drying with a hair drier out of the question.
>
> That's what I do. Life is too short to wait days between iterations.
> However, I do notice small shifts still. Usually the carbon warms just a
> bit. I don't find it that much of a problem for the B&W I'm doing.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
I'm using an old helmet hair dryer that's put on a box without
a bottom but with holes around. Gives an A3 area to dry and it
can be used unattended. Good for proofs too.
In production the 107 cm wide silkscreen belt dryer is ideal
to dry sprayed Lascaux varnish on canvas, makes it a
continuous job with several sheets and more coats per sheet.
No sheets with wet varnish around to dry. If I get rid of the
silkscreen equipment I think I will exchange it for an even
wider but shorter dryer.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-10-07 by Steve Kale
But can you print while the target is drying...I don¹t think so.
From: john dean <deanwork2003@...> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 01:05:05 -0000 To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: VideoBlog on new HP Self-Profiling Printers Greg, I belive he is right. They say 20 minutes from start to finish if you do it in one step. But they have already incorporated an easy two step process into the driver where you can wait as long as you want before reading the patches an creating the icc. I guess we'll find out before long. John > >I have mixed feelings about the built in spectro. You do > > still need to let the ink dry before measuring it, so having it built > > into the printer may not be the best idea. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-10-07 by Steve Kale
That¹s a harsh price comparison you don¹t need the iO and you¹re foolish to buy one in Europe rather than the US (even when you live in Europe). From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> An Eye One with iO costs 4000 Euro now, 60% of the price of the Z3100 44", and more than the Z2100 24" price. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-10-07 by Ernst Dinkla
Steve Kale wrote:
> That\ufffds a harsh price comparison \ufffd you don\ufffdt need the iO and you\ufffdre foolish
> to buy one in Europe rather than the US (even when you live in Europe).
>
>
>
> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
>
> An Eye One with iO
> costs 4000 Euro now, 60% of the price of the Z3100 44", and
> more than the Z2100 24" price.
.
It was a reply on a question asked. Not an advice to get one.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-10-07 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote: > > Steve Kale wrote: > > That¹s a harsh price comparison you don¹t need the iO and you¹re foolish > > to buy one in Europe rather than the US (even when you live in Europe). > > > > > > > > From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> > > > > An Eye One with iO > > costs 4000 Euro now, 60% of the price of the Z3100 44", and > > more than the Z2100 24" price. > . > It was a reply on a question asked. Not an advice to get one. > > Ernst > And I was just thinking that you might save some cash over buying an iO if you bought one of these new printers? Same might apply to the iSIS XY scanner, and the DTP70. I wouldn't buy it just for the profile measuring, and I probably will never buy any of the above auto scanners either. In fact I should probably try to sell my Spectrolino/Spectroscan pretty soon before it loses all of it's value.
2006-10-08 by John Moody
It has been reported that the spectro in the Z uses LEDs for illumination. Does that represent a cost advantage alone, or confirm that LEDs are at least as good as the tungsten source for making profiles? Does anyone know how may LED colors are used in the new Z? Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Greg Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 6:11 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: VideoBlog on new HP Self-Profiling Printers And I was just thinking that you might save some cash over buying an iO if you bought one of these new printers? Same might apply to the iSIS XY scanner, and the DTP70. I wouldn't buy it just for the profile measuring, and I probably will never buy any of the above auto scanners either. In fact I should probably try to sell my Spectrolino/Spectroscan pretty soon before it loses all of it's value. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-10-08 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" <moodymz3@...> wrote: > > It has been reported that the spectro in the Z uses LEDs for illumination. > Does that represent a cost advantage alone, or confirm that LEDs are at > least as good as the tungsten source for making profiles? > Does anyone know how may LED colors are used in the new Z? > > Best regards, > John Moody > The new Gretag iSIS XY scanner uses LEDs for the light source. As far as I can tell, the advantages are basically repeatability and longevity. LEDs do not age the same as a light bulb, so there should be a longer period between recertifications. It should also hold its calibration better too. The one report I've read (I think it was from Andrew Rodney) said it was a continous white light source (I'm not entirely sure on this one so don't hold me to it). I fairly certain that this light source will end up in just about every new product (assuming that it really works as well as conventional light bulbs). Another advantage might be less electrical power needed per lumen of light output. This would make the battery powered devices last longer, or use smaller batteries, or add things like wireless connection to your computer.
2006-10-08 by prep@prep.synonet.com
Using LEDs would be a big cost cutter, but you no longer have
a continuous spectrum. Bad news if you change inks.
--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.2006-10-09 by dlruckus
If it is a white Led, some do have a continuous spectrum. Nichea Co. makes them for instance. If it is a Led array, it is also possible to cover the full spectrum given appropriate #s of color points,appropriate half bandwidths, techniques of multiples on at same time, and possibly manipulating multiple Led power outputs. It's not all that difficult to emulate some of the well known instruments as even they only sample slices of the spectrum and interpolate the rest in many cases. There is a great deal of activity going on in this area these days as witness the last few years patent literature on the topic. The gap between spectros,colorimeters etc is closing rapidly. Even the Colorvision instrument(Datacolor 2005 I think?) seems to work well at it's task and it, if one of CD Tobys early comments when it was introduced is accurate, uses a rather small # of Leds(6 I think was mentioned). Regards Duane --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <prep@...> wrote:
> > Using LEDs would be a big cost cutter, but you no longer have > a continuous spectrum. Bad news if you change inks. > > -- > Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., > +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. > West Australia 6076 > comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. >
2006-10-09 by Ernst Dinkla
dlruckus wrote:
> If it is a white Led, some do have a continuous spectrum. Nichea Co.
> makes them for instance.
> If it is a Led array, it is also possible to cover the full spectrum
> given appropriate #s of color points,appropriate half bandwidths,
> techniques of multiples on at same time, and possibly manipulating
> multiple Led power outputs. It's not all that difficult to emulate
> some of the well known instruments as even they only sample slices of
> the spectrum and interpolate the rest in many cases.
> There is a great deal of activity going on in this area these days as
> witness the last few years patent literature on the topic. The gap
> between spectros,colorimeters etc is closing rapidly.
> Even the Colorvision instrument(Datacolor 2005 I think?) seems to
> work well at it's task and it, if one of CD Tobys early comments when
> it was introduced is accurate, uses a rather small # of Leds(6 I think
> was mentioned).
>
> Regards
> Duane
Makes me wonder why they more or less state that it consists
of Eye One parts. Using LEDs and possibly not a full spectrum
is quite a depart from the original Eye One Spectrometer. If
it is more a colorimeter then the price could be much lower.
Whatever white LED even based on 3 RGB LEDs internally and
with the best fluorescents added to fill the spectrum line, it
still will have a less continuous spectrum than a Xenon flash
as used in my Spectrocam. And I also wonder how consistent a
complicated lamp like that will be in time.
The information I gathered from several reviews so far
indicates that it is UV filtered. Isn't strip reading but
measures per patch. Measures the darker patches longer for
better results. Compensates the readings on "wet" targets for
at least the HP media in the software. Given the care in those
details one may expect that they made the right decisions on
the lamp too.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-10-09 by Greg
Again I'll say it, check the details on the Gretag iSIS XY scanner. That is the closest thing to what HP has installed. The LED industry has certainly taken off in the last couple of years, output is up by a huge factor, so is the spectrum that can be covered. I don't remember seeing a single high output LED that covers the whole spectrum, but with 2 high output LEDs, you might be able to do it. I think that is what Nichia suggests, two LEDs with certain characterists. Remember that you also need a certain amount of light to read the darker patches to get the signal to noise high enough for accuracy. This goes back to the dmax greater than 2.5 readings that are sometimes claimed. I would have to look up the exact amount of reflected light at 2.5D, but it is extremely small (I'm thinking around 0.01 percent reflected but could be wrong). It takes a lot more light or designs that minimize noise is the sensor to resolve much lower than that. And that might be the reason for the longer time on the darker patches, the LEDs may not have the same amount of light output as a Xenon lamp used in just about all the older spectro designs. Going back to the Datacolor instrument, the reason they were probably able to cut the number of colors is from the increased spectrum in the LEDs that they did use. That's just speculation, and I would love a real technical breakdown of how and why, with differences compared to the old Colormouse CM2C (if that doesn't break any trade secrets). Probably best to handle that part off list. In fact, we are probably getting close to getting yelled at for getting too far off topic already. Maybe we should move this somewhere else, I know Andrew Rodney has looked at the iSIS, and that he posts at DPReview, so maybe I'll start a thread over there.
2006-10-09 by Greg
For those that want to follow this line of discussion, here is a thread that I started: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=20384961 Hopefully some of the people that have seen both units can comment. Hopefully Yahoo won't mess up the link!