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UT-3D Dark Magenta ... Green???

UT-3D Dark Magenta ... Green???

2006-10-13 by evanj1969

UT-3D Dark Magenta ... Green???

when applying the color test curve adjustment in PS 
http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm (bottom of the page), or using 
the "calibration" mode in QTR, my Dark Magenta comes out VERY greenish. 
the Light Magenta is much more cool/cyan"ish", as i had expected. (on 
EPS & HFAP .... so far)

is this normal and what is to be expected??? if not, i need to replace 
it and not continue any further in creating curves, etc... if so, i'll 
get back to work.



thanks
evan

RE: [Digital BW] UT-3D Dark Magenta ... Green???

2006-10-13 by Paul Roark

That's normal.  

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

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From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of evanj1969
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 12:11 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] UT-3D Dark Magenta ... Green???

 

UT-3D Dark Magenta ... Green???

when applying the color test curve adjustment in PS 
http://www.inksuppl <http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm>
y.com/roarkslab.cfm (bottom of the page), or using 
the "calibration" mode in QTR, my Dark Magenta comes out VERY greenish. 
the Light Magenta is much more cool/cyan"ish", as i had expected. (on 
EPS & HFAP .... so far)

is this normal and what is to be expected??? if not, i need to replace 
it and not continue any further in creating curves, etc... if so, i'll 
get back to work.

thanks
evan

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] UT-3D Dark Magenta ... Green???

2006-10-14 by Daniel Staver

I had my UT7 inks go totally green on me once. Definitely not normal. It
was some sort of settling issue. Shaking the cartridges got the color back
to normal.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> That's normal.
>> when applying the color test curve adjustment in PS
>> http://www.inksuppl <http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm>
>> y.com/roarkslab.cfm (bottom of the page), or using
>> the "calibration" mode in QTR, my Dark Magenta comes out VERY greenish.
>> the Light Magenta is much more cool/cyan"ish", as i had expected. (on
>> EPS & HFAP .... so far)
>>
>> is this normal and what is to be expected??? if not, i need to replace
>> it and not continue any further in creating curves, etc... if so, i'll
>> get back to work.

RE: [Digital BW] UT-3D Dark Magenta ... Green???

2006-10-14 by Paul Roark

Daniel Staver wrote:

> I had my UT7 inks go totally green on me once. 
> Definitely not normal.

It can happen, but the 3D toner is more greenish to start with because it is
designed to be used with the Y-position, Lab A toner also in the mix.  The
3D toner has more cyan relative to R800 Blue than does the UT7 cold toner.
(The R800 "Blue" is a very magenta looking "blue.")

> It was some sort of settling issue. Shaking the cartridges 
> got the color back to normal.

You'll notice that I'm using un-touched UC LM in my 7500 4K+ mix.

When I put drops of magenta -- MIS or Epson UC -- into a test tube of the
MIS base that appears to be the best I can get, the magenta will show signs
of settling.  The MIS magenta settles more than the Epson, but I think the
problem arises from the same basic factors.  Magenta is a relative weakling
when it comes to light fastness.  So, to make it more lightfast, I suspect
they grind it to a larger average particle size.  The larger the particles,
all else being equal, the slower the fading -- but also the faster the
settling.  To try to offset the settling, the ink suppliers appear to
increase the viscosity and specific gravity of the base used for that
particular pigment.  So, to see what the limits are of the Epson heads, one
thing I do is measure those parameters of the Epson magenta.  You'll recall
the MIS "GP" inkset.  It was made because the viscosity of the then new 7600
M was too high for the 1280 to pump correctly.

When we mix different color pigment inks and base, however, the viscosity,
etc. become more of an average, and not what is ideally needed for the
magenta.  This is the basis for my move toward non-blended inks for large
format -- if not all -- printers.  I'm no longer willing to deal with these
issues in large format printers. (And I expect the 3800 to become a high
volume, large format printer.)  

I can increase the viscosity and specific gravity of the base to help hold
the magenta in solution, but then the tone shift reverses itself.  I might
be able to balance 2 different pigment types, but it would take a lot of
work and be more of a compromise than staying with a one-pig-per-ink
approach.  When the pigment types go to three, I suspect it is virtually
impossible to get a base that balances them as well as can be done when only
one pigment type is in the mix.

Usually, the constant agitation of the carts that happens in desktop
printers smaller than the 4000 class is sufficient to take care of the
problem.  So, in the past, the problem was limited to the relatively low
volume large format printers, which are often in settings where they are
used regularly.  Additionally, something like the MIS Autoprint program
takes care of the problem.  But this was a real hassle for me, and the
problem will become very widespread as the 3800 volume picks up.

The R800 Blue is much better than the magenta, but it is not entirely free
from the above effects, nor is the R800 Red.  The carbon and cyan are the
pigments that stay in suspension the best in the MIS base.  This is probably
because those pigments are so lightfast they can be ground to very small
sizes.

At any rate, I agree the problem is real, but usually not a serious issue
for most desktop users.  With the advent of the 3800, however, I expect the
picture to change significantly.  I will not support a blended inkset on
that machine, and it does not appear to need one anyway.  Our B&W inksets
were, after all, made due to the deficiencies of the existing color
printers.  Those deficiencies are increasingly being taken care of by the
printer manufacturers.  The main problems I see with the k3 approach, for
example, is based more on the Epson software than its ink layout.  I don't
think more than the minimum color pigments should be used, and I don't think
B&W should require a different workflow than color.  But, for now, switching
out the yellow or using a rip is the best way around these "problems." 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: UT-3D Dark Magenta ... Green???

2006-10-15 by Walt Odets

Paul-

I'm assuming that this concern with the settling of blended inks would apply to sets like the Cone K7?

Thanks,
Walt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: UT-3D Dark Magenta ... Green???

2006-10-16 by Paul Roark

Walt,

 

I have not used or tested the latest Cone inks, specifically the K7, to see
if they have the same tone-shifting characteristics when left idle in large
format printers.  I think it likely that all blended inks will have the same
issues, in part because the pigments are virtually always going to have
different specific gravities and other characteristics.  

 

One interesting possibility that has been suggested to me is that part of
what happens in large format lines has to do with the interactions between
the pigments and the tubing material.  If this has something to do with the
electronic attractions between the chemicals or the "edge effects" of the
pigment particles, it raises the question of whether coated pigments might
behave differently.  I have also not tested this.  (Note, the "edge effects"
of carbon and other pigments are where much of the action is.  Pigment
companies compete in terms of how they deal with this.  See, for example,
this piece that is used by one such company to promote its pigments:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Pigment_Edges.jpg  The pigments I've used in
blends where the tone changes have been noted are believed to be from the
same company and have similar edge treatments.)

 

As a practical matter, when it comes to these large format issues it is
simply too time consuming and expensive for me to test all of the options.
So, if a non-blended approach works OK for me - and at this point it looks
like it will - then it is not practical for me to test all possible
alternatives. 

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

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From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Walt
Odets
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 11:36 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: UT-3D Dark Magenta ... Green???

 

Paul-

I'm assuming that this concern with the settling of blended inks would apply
to sets like the Cone K7?

Thanks,
Walt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



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